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Re:The Dead Children We Must See by kej on Tuesday November 28, 2023 @05:01PM (#38451953)
Reminds me of one of my favorite quotes from the afterword of Howard Zinn's A People's History of the United States:

>But there is no such thing as a pure fact, innocent of interpretation. Behind every fact presented to the world—by a teacher, a writer, anyone—is a judgment. The judgment that has been made is that this fact is important, and that other facts, omitted, are not important.

Re:The Dead Children We Must See by crabmusket on Tuesday November 28, 2023 @06:06PM (#38452852)
Karl Popper:

“Twenty-five years ago I tried to bring home the same point to a group of physics students in Vienna by beginning a lecture with the following instructions: 'Take pencil and paper; carefully observe, and write down what you have observed!' They asked, of course, what I wanted them to observe. Clearly the instruction, 'Observe!' is absurd. (It is not even idiomatic, unless the object of the transitive verb can be taken as understood.) Observation is always selective. It needs a chosen object, a definite task, an interest, a point of view, a problem. And its description presupposes a descriptive language, with property words; it presupposes similarity and classification, which in their turn presuppose interests, points of view, and problems.”

Re:The Dead Children We Must See by hackeraccount on Tuesday November 28, 2023 @05:30PM (#38452355)
True enough but the poison is in the dose. Too much and you're left with Nihilism.

The trouble revolves around how much judgement is required on any given subject. On the right subject people can come perilously close to laying out facts devoid of interpretation; on the wrong subject either no one can or no one believes anyone can - which is pretty much the same thing.

Re:The Dead Children We Must See by injeolmi_love on Tuesday November 28, 2023 @06:41PM (#38453257)
And what exactly is wrong with a nihilism? If we don’t really know what’s going on, maybe we should accept that truth and move on with living better lives less swayed by political propaganda. Given how many relationships have been ruined because both sides were certain of their political facts, a nihilism seems simply better.
Re:The Dead Children We Must See by akprasad on Tuesday November 28, 2023 @07:13PM (#38453576)
Broadly, nihilism rejects purpose and meaning. I don't see how one can justify we "move on with living better lives" within such a worldview (i.e. why act that way when nothing matters?).
Re:The Dead Children We Must See by injeolmi_love on Tuesday November 28, 2023 @08:26PM (#38454234)
There’s many forms of nihilism, and purpose nihilism wasn’t the subject of my comment.

A Nihilist is more stable than you think. A tree doesn’t need purpose to grow, and neither does a human. Instead they follow a process that’s expressed by the body in response to the environment. For humans we not only have physical sensation but also memories, ideas, and thoughts. Without a worldview these all still happen, and your body will still react to your thoughts and sensations without a purpose. A healthy Nihilist would not feel sad about having no meaning, since they never had one anyway; on reflection, they might feel happy that there’s no obligation to respond other than how their situation moves them to. A Nihilist can do what is morally right without the restrictions of a purpose that proscribes them to do otherwise.

Re:The Dead Children We Must See by kuchenbecker on Tuesday November 28, 2023 @11:07PM (#38455448)
I'm curious how you reconcile the explicit rejection of morality in Nihilism with your personal morality. I feel these are in conflict.

---

Longer take:

Defining what is morally right requires value judgement, and Nihilism rejects morality. What Is (facts) can't tell us what we ought to do. [1]

To build a moral framework on what one ought to do, you must necessarily ascribe meaning and value judgement otherwise it can't claim to be moral and it would merely be actions you perform devoid of meaning.

[1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Is%E2%80%93ought_problem

Re:The Dead Children We Must See by injeolmi_love on Wednesday November 29, 2023 @12:59AM (#38456059)
There isn’t a fundamental difference between ought/is. Both moral judgements and facts are based on reasoned beliefs.

Why do you think meaning is required for making a value judgement? I can very easily claim that killing humans is wrong without relying on any metaphysics, just like I can claim the sky is blue. Both are beliefs based on reasons; meaning can be discarded.

Re:The Dead Children We Must See by kuchenbecker on Wednesday November 29, 2023 @10:21AM (#38460475)
That meaning can be discarded doesn't imply it ought to be discarded.

---

Morals/meaning have a shaky absolute foundation, in that deep down nothing probably matters and the universe is indifferent.

However I'm a person, born in modern society; everything has relative meaning even if the epistemological foundations are shaky.

I see Nihilism similar the mathematicians trying to prove foundational math [1], and similarly doubting it's actually fundamental.

Yet here we are using math to amazing things! Math doesn't need to be true for it to be useful. I find useful things valuable.

Meaning, in particular shared meaning, is similarly valuable and worth pursuing even if they can't be proven.

[1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Set_theory

Re:The Dead Children We Must See by tptacek on Tuesday November 28, 2023 @07:31PM (#38453754)
What the last two comments are really saying is that "nihilism" isn't the right word for the state you enter when you give up on developing an accurate picture of the world from luridly presented tragedies in news stories.
Re:The Dead Children We Must See by matt_j on Tuesday November 28, 2023 @08:54PM (#38454447)
The right word would be "apathy".
Re:The Dead Children We Must See by tptacek on Tuesday November 28, 2023 @09:00PM (#38454497)
No, that's not at all right.
Re:The Dead Children We Must See by scotty79 on Wednesday November 29, 2023 @06:10AM (#38458006)
Nothing objectively matters. You are free to invent things and ascribe them meaning. Meaninglessness is a discovery, meaning is a creation.
Re:The Dead Children We Must See by akoboldfrying on Wednesday November 29, 2023 @06:26AM (#38458110)
>why act that way when nothing matters?

I agree but I think the breakdown is even stronger than that: Nihilism gives you no way to decide what is "better" in the first place.

Re:The Dead Children We Must See by kuchenbecker on Tuesday November 28, 2023 @09:21PM (#38454656)
My take on Nihilism:

If you've gotten to Nihilism, you have a blank slate to build what you Do believe.

Ascribing meaning to things has value. For example, human life in Nihilism is unimportant, which may or may not be true, but we all benefit from the shared belief in the value of life even if it's technically wrong.

So don't stop at Nihilism as the conclusion but rather use it as a canvas and build up what's meaningful to you. With any luck, others will find the same things as you meaningful.

Re:The Dead Children We Must See by collingreen on Tuesday November 28, 2023 @10:09PM (#38454981)
This is a really positive take and I appreciate you writing it.
Re:The Dead Children We Must See by kuchenbecker on Tuesday November 28, 2023 @11:25PM (#38455560)
You're welcome!

It was my way out of Nihilism. The pursuit of being good is more important and valuable than us all agreeing on what is good (or even that good exists at all). And given that goal, all you can do is try your best.

Re:The Dead Children We Must See by scotty79 on Wednesday November 29, 2023 @06:08AM (#38457994)
The best direction to move from nihilism is absurdism. You can still be correct but now you can enjoy it.
Re:The Dead Children We Must See by a-french-anon on Wednesday November 29, 2023 @04:49AM (#38457462)
You're left with wisdom, not nihilism.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I_know_that_I_know_nothing

Re:The Dead Children We Must See by paulddraper on Tuesday November 28, 2023 @05:51PM (#38452628)
That is brilliant.

Also why "unbiased" reporting can never truly exist (however wonderful that would be).

The choice to report something is itself a judgment of the topic.

Re:The Dead Children We Must See by kazinator on Tuesday November 28, 2023 @06:03PM (#38452810)
You can exercise judgment in choosing a topic: fair enough.

Within that topic, you can present all the facts that you know, or just the ones that support a certain narrative.

Re:The Dead Children We Must See by paulddraper on Tuesday November 28, 2023 @07:04PM (#38453502)
> Within that topic, you can present all the facts that you know, or just the ones that support a certain narrative.

Let's say you are reporting on the elevated rate of gun violence in Chicago compared to other US cities.

Which of the following facts do you include in your story? (For sake of argument, assume these are factually accurate statements.)

1. Chicago votes predominately Democrat.

2. Chicago has a higher poverty rate than other cities.

3. Chicago has a large black and Hispanic population.

4. Chicago has more gangs than other cities.

Re:The Dead Children We Must See by leetcrew on Tuesday November 28, 2023 @08:18PM (#38454162)
I think this is the wrong question to ask. I'd prefer to see reporters refrain from "connecting the dots". it's not a good fit for the daily/weekly news cycle.

there's a lot to discuss on this topic without "contextualizing". you can report on whether gun violence is up or down YoY, whether the percent delta is above the noise floor of the last few years, compare against trends in similar US cities, that sort of thing.

once you start including facts like 1, 2, 3, or 4, you are crafting a narrative, whether it is explicit or not. it's irresponsible to include this stuff unless you are prepared to make a detailed analysis of whether these factors actually predict crime, thorough comparisons against other cities where the same facts are true, possibly some regression analysis. most journalists lack the time and capacity to do this.

Re:The Dead Children We Must See by mcpackieh on Tuesday November 28, 2023 @07:46PM (#38453900)
Why not all of those facts? It's only four short sentences, it won't take up much space on a printed newspaper let alone an online article. Throw in some more facts about American gun crime rates vs other countries for good measure, some facts comparing Chicago to other American cities, etc.
Re:The Dead Children We Must See by kazinator on Tuesday November 28, 2023 @08:28PM (#38454248)
If it's your intent to report facts about gun violence in Chicago, and only that, then dropping those other facts detracts from what you're doing. It makes it look like you're insinuating possible causes. Like that voting Democrat leads to gun violence, or that poverty causes gun violence, or that hispanics and blacks perpetrate gun violence.

By mentioning certain remotely related facts, it looks as if you're hinting at giving an interpretation of the central facts.

If you want to convey facts about a topic like gun violence in Chicago, then stick to facts closely relevant to it. Like different ways of slicing up the data. You might show a density map of where in Chicago most of it has happened over a certain period, or demographics about gun violence.

Now if you want to explore a link between gun violence and something else like poverty, then you have to get your ducks in a row about that. Such a subject deserves to be treated by a sophisticated researcher with an expert background in statistics. If that researcher postulates some kind of link, they have to look at all the reasons why that might be false, not only true.

Re:The Dead Children We Must See by mcpackieh on Wednesday November 29, 2023 @07:57AM (#38458775)
The idea is to report all the facts that at least a substantial minority of the public believe to be relevant, regardless of which way they swing politically. All of those facts qualify under this standard, and also the ones I suggested as well. If you leave out the part about Chicago being a Democratic stronghold city, half the American public are going to be yelling that fact at the article and concluding that the writer is biased. And if you leave out the comparison of American gun violence to other countries, you'll have the same accusations of bias coming from other readers.

If you want to preempt those accusations of bias, then you need to cover your bases and present all the facts that the public may believe to be relevant. Even those facts which you personally believe to be irrelevant distractions from the narrative you prefer.

Re:The Dead Children We Must See by kazinator on Wednesday November 29, 2023 @02:39PM (#38464178)
What you're doing there is a form of populism: adjusting the biases hinted at your article to the anticipated biases held by the public, as to somehow pander to everyone at the same time.

That's not the same as avoiding biases.

Re:The Dead Children We Must See by mcpackieh on Thursday November 30, 2023 @11:05AM (#38475162)
The idea isn't to pander to the majority, but to include facts that at least a substantial minority believe are relevant even if most people think those facts aren't relevant. This would not make the majority feel pandered to, it would probably make most people believe the article isn't ideologically aligned with them which is the entire point. Democrats would say "why the hell is the article mentioning that Chicago is controlled by Democratic politicians? That's not relevant!" And Republicans would say "why the hell is the article mentioning that America's gun violence rate far exceeds that of other developed countries, that isn't relevant!" However in both cases they would have to concede that the article did include the facts they personally believe relevant (those facts which the other objects to) even though it also included irrelevant facts. This isn't pandering, this is impartially reporting the facts that some significant fraction of people might believe to be relevant while at the same time not conforming to their preferred narrative by omitting facts inconvenient to their narrative.

You can't pander to both at the same time. What you can do, and typically is done, is pander to one or the other by conforming to one narrative or the other, choosing or omitting facts according to the needs of one narrative or the other. That is pandering.

Re:The Dead Children We Must See by tptacek on Tuesday November 28, 2023 @06:28PM (#38453096)
The facts you know are also selected subjectively, both by yourself and by the people who make you available to those facts.
Re:The Dead Children We Must See by TeMPOraL on Tuesday November 28, 2023 @07:06PM (#38453511)
Yes, and then bias is also a statistical phenomenon too, yadda yadda. But we all understand we're talking about the subset of bias that any specific actor can introduce due to ignorance or ulterior motives, and could in principle choose otherwise. Objectively unbiased reporting may be impossible, but intellectual honesty is possible, and should be required of people more.
Re:The Dead Children We Must See by zogrodea on Tuesday November 28, 2023 @11:05PM (#38455433)
Agreed. Even if one cannot achieve an ideal, there is no reason why one should not try their hardest to live up to it, instead of abandoning it as "all or nothing".
Re:The Dead Children We Must See by gotoeleven on Tuesday November 28, 2023 @07:36PM (#38453797)
I don't think it's really that hard to report in a way that is unbiased enough to be useful. Just ask yourself, am I leaving out facts that my political opposite would think are relevant? But even just focusing on facts, however selected, would be better than what we have now which is a news media that decides what they want you to think first, and then reports or buries a story based on this.
Re:The Dead Children We Must See by tptacek on Tuesday November 28, 2023 @07:45PM (#38453892)
It can be hard to even realize you're even being biased. As a professional journalist, just the fact that you're reporting on a region at all is a thumb your employer has put on the scale. It wouldn't be, were journalism evenly distributed across all conflicts, but there is no market for that kind of journalism, and so it isn't done.

That doesn't mean people should disregard journalism done from "journalism hot spots". But it's an important thing to keep in mind, and I think it bears especially on the question of how much emotional valence we should want invested in stories.

Re:The Dead Children We Must See by giraffe_lady on Wednesday November 29, 2023 @01:58PM (#38463590)
A view even allowing for a "political opposite" is already really limited for this purpose. What's the opposite of a christian anarchist? Is a soldier fighting a genocide its opposite, or is a pacifist? It's not that the model is useless but it's not very useful for this.
Re:The Dead Children We Must See by martythemaniak on Tuesday November 28, 2023 @06:02PM (#38452797)
OurWorldInData.com is probably what unbiased "reporting" looks like, and obviously even they have to choose what to research and present.
Re:The Dead Children We Must See by timeagain on Tuesday November 28, 2023 @06:11PM (#38452908)
At a deeper level, that site presupposes that quantitative data is a good way to interpret the world. (I don’t disagree, mostly!) Of course some things are easier to turn into numbers than others.
Re:The Dead Children We Must See by natmaka on Tuesday November 28, 2023 @10:14PM (#38455022)
For some data there are multiples discordant sources, or critics directed to the unique source. Selecting (and therefore neglecting some) isn't neutral either. A real (non-disputable) consensus is very rare.
Re:The Dead Children We Must See by sctb on Tuesday November 28, 2023 @05:26PM (#38452293)
This is also a feature (the defining feature, IMO) of causal narratives.
Re:The Dead Children We Must See by tptacek on Tuesday November 28, 2023 @05:33PM (#38452379)
Right. It's a thing to be aware of, not a disqualifier; if you simply filter out any content delivered with an agenda, you can't learn anything.
Re:The Dead Children We Must See by sctb on Tuesday November 28, 2023 @05:44PM (#38452537)
I'm going to agree harder: it's a thing to be aware of as a fundamental mechanism which may or may not be related to agenda or judgement in any given instance.
Re:The Dead Children We Must See by raincom on Tuesday November 28, 2023 @06:24PM (#38453055)
In philosophy of sciences, it is known that every fact is a fact of some or another theory. That's what "theory-laden" facts are. When some or another claim is not under dispute, such a theoretical claim is accepted as a fact. We accept many theories, whose theoretical claims have attained the status of facts. Same thing happens when it comes to newspapers, journalists: whatever they present as facts are facts of a certain of way of describing an event/process/slice of the world. As long as such descriptions are accepted, facts of those descriptions(theories) reach the status of facts: when someone disputes these descriptions, he is branded as extremist/conspiracy theorist/right wing/labels that many find abhorrent.
Re:The Dead Children We Must See by globalnode on Tuesday November 28, 2023 @06:59PM (#38453463)
agree, and then we get into the world of combative self interest, its hard to move forward to a solution when so much energy is spent trying to undermine one's opponent -- I did like your description of theory-laden facts though, so thats what they were trying to teach me in science 101 :)
Re:The Dead Children We Must See by raincom on Tuesday November 28, 2023 @09:07PM (#38454557)
Re:The Dead Children We Must See by adamredwoods on Tuesday November 28, 2023 @07:12PM (#38453571)
>> when someone disputes these descriptions, he is branded as extremist/conspiracy theorist/right wing/labels that many find abhorrent

Not always true. The goal of facts is to create trust and order. So when disputing "facts", it will initially cause chaos and disorder. Additionally, challenging a "fact" should come with reasoning (usually through the scientific method), and not an unresearched response. For example, flat-earthers deny a fact, yet offer no research. In such a case, a derogatory label is provided.

https://physicsworld.com/a/fighting-flat-earth-theory/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_method

Re:The Dead Children We Must See by raincom on Tuesday November 28, 2023 @09:06PM (#38454550)
There is no such thing as "scientific method". Only school boy conception of science espouses such a view that there is a scientific method. What we have are a set of heuristics learned from the history of natural sciences. These heuristics function as guard rails: for instance, a theory that is postulated to explain already-collected facts is ad hoc; a theory should solve new problems; a theory should solve predict novel 'facts'; do not increase theoretical entities unnecessarily; do not try to explain away by postulating various sub-entities; do not confuse a description with a phenomenon; save the phenomena; etc.

When you or I drive/walk, what do we experience: flat earth, of course. In other words, both flat-earthers and spherical-earthers experience the same. Further, flat-earthers reason that if the earth were to be round, one would fall off of the surface of the earth on a sea/land travel. Since such an incident never occured, flat-earthers reason that the earth can't be spherical. Flat-earthers reasoning is not spurious, they are entirely reasonable.

How to help them, you have to make them pilots and fly at 50000 feet, and they can experience the sphericalness of the earth directly. In other words, you can't transfer knowledge via authority. That's why there are disputes about what sciences are? Are sciences reduced to a set of theories, or just experiments, both theories and experiments? What happens when one theory gets supplanted by another, better theory? These are deeper questions about knowledge.

When I am sick, I trust some or doctor about his knowledge to diagnose. In some cases, even patients start doing research on their own (you can find many stories on this forum) to figure out when the doctors are not helpful. No one creates chaos, if one is genuinely seek knowledge. Instead of seeking knowledge, one seeks fame, followers, etc. Or as the other commenter said 'when so much energy is spent trying to undermine one's opponent'. That's a different story.

We have to be careful about psuedo-winning against those who create chaos. Here is an interesting piece by Late Prof. Larry Laudan: "Science at the Bar--Causes for Concern" [1], originally appeared in Science, Technology, and Human Values 7 (41):16-19 (1982)

[1] https://faculty.washington.edu/lynnhank/Laudan.pdf

Re:The Dead Children We Must See by xdennis on Tuesday November 28, 2023 @08:50PM (#38454419)
> But there is no such thing as a pure fact

Yes there is. People who say otherwise just want to push their partizan viewpoint.

You can present non-biased facts, it's just that it's hard and not financially rewarding because when you're non-biased you loose the polarized audience. Sticking to a single world view gives you a loyal audience.

Re:The Dead Children We Must See by dingnuts on Tuesday November 28, 2023 @05:33PM (#38452383)
Can a fact not simply exist without presentation? pi does not need an agent to exist; it simply is. Circles and the relationship between their circumference and diameter existed before minds existed to comprehend them.

Behind every human presentation there is a judgment, sure, but many facts simply exist in nature, ready to be observed and judged without a preexisting agenda.

I'm naturally suspicious of people who put "People's" in front of words where the word should be implied. It's like a People's Republic, you know? What's Zinn's agenda? Perhaps he is telling on himself, in this quote.

Re:The Dead Children We Must See by xscott on Tuesday November 28, 2023 @07:54PM (#38453963)
> Circles and the relationship between their circumference and diameter existed before minds existed

There really aren't any circles in the physical universe. There aren't any ellipses either. I'm not sure about lines. You're going to hit Planck's constant and the speed of light in any example you name.

Charge seems quantized, so you can probably have the integers and fractions, but real numbers are right out.

Re:The Dead Children We Must See by hotsauceror on Tuesday November 28, 2023 @09:01PM (#38454502)
Bubbles are perfectly circular, and natural.
Re:The Dead Children We Must See by kej on Tuesday November 28, 2023 @07:51PM (#38453929)
I mean, yeah, Howard Zinn "told on himself" several hundred pages before that quote from the afterword. His whole thing is that lots of American history is only told from one side and he wanted to popularize a different view. The point of that quote is that not everyone lays their biases out up front the way he did.

In your math example, yes, pi is a constant of nature that simply is. However, in choosing pi over Euler's number or the square root of -1 for your comment, you've made an implicit judgement about their relative importance. That's probably inconsequential for most math facts, but could be a lot more impactful for people presenting history or the news.

Re:The Dead Children We Must See by tptacek on Tuesday November 28, 2023 @05:34PM (#38452400)
Yes. Perhaps Howard Zinn has an agenda.
Re:The Dead Children We Must See by adolph on Tuesday November 28, 2023 @06:03PM (#38452815)
If you don't like Zinn, how about Popper by way of Deutsch in The Beginning of Everything:

We never know any data before interpreting it through theories. All observations are, as Popper put it, theory-laden, and hence fallible, as all our theories are. . . . The growth of knowledge consists of correcting misconceptions in our theiories.

Pi is a great example. Did circles exist before minds existed? Or are circles approximations of the observed world?

Re:The Dead Children We Must See by smrq on Tuesday November 28, 2023 @06:48PM (#38453338)
I was thinking about this in the shower the other day. Circles don't "exist" because they are a pure abstraction; as an element of mathematics they are simply a bag of conclusions that are inevitable if you are willing to accept other axioms. The language with which we talk about these axioms and conclusions might be fallible, and certainly the conclusions themselves may be fallible (though not likely so for elemental enough mathematics), but the kernel of truth in logic at the middle is, I think, unassailable.
Re:The Dead Children We Must See by adolph on Wednesday November 29, 2023 @09:55AM (#38460075)
Perhaps so. I trimmed down the parts where I referenced Euclid in a similar vein to “conclusions … inevitable if you … accept other axioms.” I was thinking though of this Veritasium video outlining the development of non-Euclidean geometries:

https://youtu.be/lFlu60qs7_4?si=vd1s7vPmV-drPSfP

Re:The Dead Children We Must See by lovecg on Tuesday November 28, 2023 @09:35PM (#38454753)
That quote tells more about Zinn’s views than anything true about the world. Explains a lot about that propaganda piece of a book that has little to do with actual history.
Re:The Dead Children We Must See by akoboldfrying on Wednesday November 29, 2023 @06:41AM (#38458221)
Summarising things is lossy, and every piece of information we don't say might have consequences for the audience.

But we need to do it so that we can stop talking.