There's a famous comic meme about your distinction that's regularly reposted on the internet: https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/001/663/485/1f8...

But many women have commented that they find the "attractive" guy's compliments also unwanted.

It's well-known and widely established that coming from wealth makes it easier to get with "gentlemen crimes" (e.g. being caught drinking underage or using illegal drugs is more likely to result in confiscation and a stern warning or "slap on the wrist" if the police officer knows you're from a wealthy family, other biases aside) as well as sexual assault.

So the difference between the two can simply be that the "handsome" guy in a suit is just more likely to "get away with it" because it's riskier to confront or report him compared to the "ugly" guy who is likely on a lower rung of the social hierarchy.

Pay attention to what they do, not what they say.

It's a fallacy, and actually a self defeating one since it causes guys to ascribe their failures to something out of their control (looks) instead of what is actually in their control (behavior.)

Here's a pretty good deconstruction of the concept IMO: https://www.doctornerdlove.com/understanding-the-hot-creepy-...

It seems obviously true that certain behaviors are hot if they're performed when there is mutual interest and creepy when there isn't any. And being hot has a huge impact on whether or not there is mutual interest.

In addition hot people are just given more latitude than ugly people in terms of social faux pas.

No no, that's exactly the point. If an advance is welcome, it's wasn't a faux pas. If it's not welcome, it's a faux pas. This is true regardless of hotness level.

Are hot people more likely to be welcome to a larger set of people? Sure, that's nearly tautological. But the expected behavior is the same: be sensitive to context, read signals, don't violate boundaries. Hot people and ugly people can both do this (or not.)

Hot people are more likely to find people that are into them. But nobody owes or is owed anything regardless of attraction level, and it's every guy's responsibility not to act like a creep.

Good thing none of this matters as long as the number goes up!

Attractiveness runs in Trumps family. He afterall was the Paris Hilton / Kardashians of the 80s and early 90s. Those types of socialites have beauty and wealth and society loves to follow them because of it.

You've got it backwards. In both cases what makes it harassment is continuing to push when it's unwanted. Why you seem to see a difference in results based on attractiveness is because your average guy can't take a hint no matter how attractive they are. So "success" becomes literally stochastic because guys never back off (and bonus take being unresponsive, ignoring them, or outright telling them no as "playing hard to get") so it only works when coincidentally the feeling of attraction is mutual which is sorta related to conventional physical attractiveness but not as 1-1 as it's made out here. 95% of the time I don't want even the hot guy approaching me and even 1/20 feels high.

I kinda wish it worked like Brazilian steakhouse rules where I could wear something that signaled, "open to being hit on by strangers."

I swear the guys that just start dancing on me would do far far better if they just asked first. It goes from "oh god ew how do I discretely get one of my girlfriends to get me out of here" to "eh ya know what, sure."

Yes, most guys don't want to be assholes which is why they talk about this. You might notice that when you are out dancing most guys on the floor aren't grinding their crotch against you. The people who are fine with being assholes aren't complaining, you wont find them in these discussions.

> I swear the guys that just start dancing on me would do far far better if they just asked first. It goes from "oh god ew how do I discretely get one of my girlfriends to get me out of here" to "eh ya know what, sure."

The guys who do that don't want to dance with you, they want to sleep with you. Asking for a dance will probably get them girls who wants to dance and not go further, you instantly rejecting them is what they want.

"But if they danced and did some more work then maybe..." But they don't want to go through that, that is the entire point they want to skip the work to build a connection and just do a one-night stand.

My sister was raped by her boss, so maybe she is more sensitive, but she box and spend 6 hours a week at the gym (10 hours total if you count boxing), and truly attractive males hit on her daily. Any guy who hit on her without being prompted, even the 'cute' ones (which is, to be fair, a big part of gym goers), get on her 'red flag' list, that she share with her gym and box friends. Maybe when she was younger she might have thought that.

My personal experience (which was until recently limited to feminist hippies living in vans/tents and playing guitar around a fire tbh) is the same. Just have normal conversation, a bit of small talk, listen and pay attention, flirt a bit, only show off if it doesn't break the rhythm of the moment (better yet, don't show off at all), ask for a date without saying it's a date. If it's no, it's no. Doesn't mean you can't flirt anymore, flirting is always fun (and if it's not for you, think about that: more practice!).

It's really hard to do this well and not be boring however. You have to do all those things and also subtly telegraph that you're somehow attracted to them and don't just want to have "a normal conversation" - mostly by 'showing off' subtly enough, not looking like you're blatantly showing off. It can be done, but plenty of guys are going to try and fail. I do suppose it's better to look excessively boring and inoffensive than to end up on their "red flag, animal, unsafe to be around. Must be avoided" list.

Takes like these are very odd to me. The parent comment is basically saying to have a conversation and if it goes well ask the person out. If said person finds your conversation boring then why would you want to date them in the first place?

So much discourse online about dating is "I HAVE to do X and Y and Z and it's just exhausting", but why? Why go through all this effort if you don't want to? Isn't the whole point of dating to find someone who makes you happy and likes you for who you are?

Yes it is, that's the whole point. As a dude, you're not going to signal "hey I like you for who you are, I care about making you happy" with boring conversation. You need something that's not just that, and is not "keep pestering them and don't take no for an answer" either.

A conversation will naturally be interesting if two people are interested in each other, even if it's about a boring topic. That's what chemistry is. It may start out boring, but if there is chemistry, it won't stay that way.

But hey, that's just me. I have absolutely zero interest in "the game" and doing things I wouldn't normally do to get women to date me, and I am lucky enough that I don't have to. I just see people talking about doing all this stuff to get women to like them and I can't help but think that a relationship started that way is doomed to fail. I would find it exhausting to constantly worry about "signaling" things to someone to keep them interested. I want to be myself, always, and if they're not interested, oh well.

I worked at a place that had lots of young people and HR's definition included even a single time, and intent does not matter, perception does.

They would also punish without letting the person know who/when/where they were accused by.

This was not theoretical CYA policy, I saw one guy fired and another lose promotion and both swore they did not know why.

The "pear ring" is trying to make this happen but it hasn't really caught on much.

I think it's typically wishful thinking. Just act like a normal human being, it's often enough, even if you're ugly.

I've been fat from 24 to 29 years old, and obese from 26 to 28. I did not have any sex during that time (my libido was quite low tbh), but I did have a few date, maybe half a dozen?, despite being quite ugly (23 to 27 especially, I didn't took care of myself at all). I assure you I wasn't attractive. But I was a normal human being who could listen and find cues before asking someone out.