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Re:OpenAI's employees were given two explanations for why Sa... by LMYahooTFY on Tuesday November 21, 2023 @01:55AM (#38360284)
>Altman took a non-profit and vacuumed up a bunch of donor money only to flip Open AI into the hottest TC style startup in the world. Then put a gas pedal to commercialization. It takes a certain type of politicking and deception to make something like that happen.

What exactly is the problem here? Is a non-profit expected to exclusively help impoverished communities or something? What type of politicking and deception is involved in creating a for profit subsidiary which is granted license to OpenAIs research in order to generate wealth? The entire purpose of this legal structure is to keep non-profit owners focused on their mission rather than shareholder value, which in this case is attempting to ethically create an AGI.

Edit: to add that this framework was not invented by Sam Altman, nor OpenAI.

>Then in the past week, he's going and taking money from the Saudis on the order of billions of dollars to make AI accelerators, even though the single greatest threat from strong AI (according to Hinton) is rich and powerful people using the technology to enhance their power over society.

Thus the legal structure I described, although this argument is entirely theoretical and assumes such a thing can actually be guarded that well at all, or that model performance and compute will remain correlated.

Re:OpenAI's employees were given two explanations for why Sa... by nmfisher on Tuesday November 21, 2023 @02:30AM (#38360490)
> Is a non-profit expected to exclusively help impoverished communities or something? What type of politicking and deception is involved in creating a for profit subsidiary which is granted license to OpenAIs research in order to generate wealth?

OpenAI was literally founded on the promise of keeping AGI out of the hands of “big tech companies”.

The first thing that Sam Altman did when he took over was give Microsoft the keys to the kingdom, and even more absurdly, he is now working for Microsoft on the same thing. That’s without even mentioning the creepy Worldcoin company.

Money and status are the clear motivations here, OpenAI charter be damned.

Re:OpenAI's employees were given two explanations for why Sa... by sumedh on Tuesday November 21, 2023 @05:11AM (#38361702)
> OpenAI was literally founded on the promise of keeping AGI out of the hands of “big tech companies”.

Where does it say that?

Re:OpenAI's employees were given two explanations for why Sa... by stavros on Tuesday November 21, 2023 @05:52AM (#38361980)
In their charter:

> We commit to use any influence we obtain over AGI’s deployment to ensure it is used for the benefit of all, and to avoid enabling uses of AI or AGI that harm humanity or unduly concentrate power.

Re:OpenAI's employees were given two explanations for why Sa... by nottheengineer on Tuesday November 21, 2023 @06:30AM (#38362253)
Re:OpenAI's employees were given two explanations for why Sa... by sumedh on Tuesday November 21, 2023 @06:47AM (#38362384)
Which line specifically says they will keep AGI out of the hands of “big tech companies”.
Re:OpenAI's employees were given two explanations for why Sa... by nmfisher on Tuesday November 21, 2023 @07:54AM (#38363016)
“Big tech companies” was in quotation marks because it’s a journalistic term, not a direct quotation from their charter.

But the intention was precisely that - just read the charter. Or if you want it directly from the founders, read this interview and count how many times they refer to Google https://medium.com/backchannel/how-elon-musk-and-y-combinato...

Re:OpenAI's employees were given two explanations for why Sa... by sumedh on Tuesday November 21, 2023 @08:58PM (#38373651)
Look at the date of that article, those ideas look good on paper but then reality kicks in and you have to spend lot of money on computing, who funds that, its the "Big tech companies".
Re:OpenAI's employees were given two explanations for why Sa... by hatenberg on Tuesday November 21, 2023 @07:10AM (#38362565)
I bet you could chatGPT to actually explain this to you, it's really not very hard
Re:OpenAI's employees were given two explanations for why Sa... by Applejinx on Tuesday November 21, 2023 @08:25AM (#38363295)
'unduly concentrate power'
Re:OpenAI's employees were given two explanations for why Sa... by LMYahooTFY on Tuesday November 21, 2023 @12:48PM (#38367121)
I don't know about the motivations, but the point seems valid.

I agree WorldCoin is creepy.

Is the corporate structure then working as intended with regard to firing Sam, but still failed because of the sellout to Microsoft?

Re:OpenAI's employees were given two explanations for why Sa... by jelling on Tuesday November 21, 2023 @02:17AM (#38360425)
> What exactly is the problem here? Is a non-profit expected to exclusively help impoverished communities or something?

Yes. Yes and more yes.

That is why, at least in the U.S., we have given non-profits exemptions from taxation. Because they are supposed to be improving society, not profiting from it.

Re:OpenAI's employees were given two explanations for why Sa... by arrosenberg on Tuesday November 21, 2023 @02:30AM (#38360492)
> That is why, at least in the U.S., we have given non-profits exemptions from taxation.

That's your belief. The NFL, Heritage Foundation and Scientology are all non-profits and none of them improve society; they all profit from it.

(For what its' worth, I wish the law was more aligned with your worldview)

Re:OpenAI's employees were given two explanations for why Sa... by twelvechairs on Tuesday November 21, 2023 @02:48AM (#38360632)
> OpenAIs goal is to advance digital intelligence in the way that is most likely to benefit humanity as a whole, unconstrained by a need to generate financial return. OpenAI believes that artificial intelligence technology has the potential to have a profound, positive impact on the world, so the companys goal is to develop and responsibly deploy safe AI technology, ensuring that its benefits are as widely and evenly distributed as possible.

From their filing as a non-profit

https://projects.propublica.org/nonprofits/organizations/810...

Re:OpenAI's employees were given two explanations for why Sa... by tsimionescu on Tuesday November 21, 2023 @03:39AM (#38361015)
Ostensibly, all three of your examples do exist to improve society. The NFL exists to support a widely popular sport, the Heritage Foundation is there to propose changes that they theoretically believe are better for society, and Scientology is a religion that will save us all from our bad thetans or whatever cockamamie story they sell.

A non-profit has to have the intention of improving society. Whether their chosen means is (1) effective and (2) truthful are separate discussions. But an entity can actually lose non-profit status if it is found to be operated for the sole benefit of its higher ups, and is untruthful in its mission. It is typically very hard to prove though, just like it's very hard to successfully sue a for-profit CEO/president for breach of fiduciary duty.

Re:OpenAI's employees were given two explanations for why Sa... by lordnacho on Tuesday November 21, 2023 @03:52AM (#38361117)
I think GP deals with that in his parenthesis.

It would be nice if we held organizations to their stated missions. We don't.

Perhaps there simply shouldn't be a tax break. After all if your org spends all its income on charity, it won't pay any tax anyway. If it sells cookies for more than what it costs to make and distribute them, why does it matter whether it was for a charity?

Plus, we already believe that for-profit orgs can benefit society, in fact part of the reason for creating them as legal entities is that we think there's some sort of benefit, whether it be feeding us or creating toys. So why have a special charity sector?

Re:OpenAI's employees were given two explanations for why Sa... by aurareturn on Tuesday November 21, 2023 @02:34AM (#38360523)
FYI, the NFL teams are for profits and pay taxes like normal busineses. The overwhelming majority of the revenue goes to the teams.
Re:OpenAI's employees were given two explanations for why Sa... by arrosenberg on Tuesday November 21, 2023 @02:38AM (#38360561)
I know that, does that change what I said?
Re:OpenAI's employees were given two explanations for why Sa... by aurareturn on Tuesday November 21, 2023 @02:44AM (#38360601)
I don't know if it does but my point is to prevent others from thinking that a giant money making entity like the NFL does not pay any taxes.
Re:OpenAI's employees were given two explanations for why Sa... by hluska on Tuesday November 21, 2023 @02:53AM (#38360674)
Of course teams pay tax. You just argued nothing…

What was the point?

Re:OpenAI's employees were given two explanations for why Sa... by johncampbelljr on Tuesday November 21, 2023 @03:43AM (#38361045)
Would you not object if someone characterized google as a non-profit because part of the org (the Google foundation) is non-profit? (Not a perfect analogy (nothing ever is, really).)
Re:OpenAI's employees were given two explanations for why Sa... by mschuster91 on Tuesday November 21, 2023 @04:10AM (#38361239)
> The NFL, Heritage Foundation and Scientology are all non-profits and none of them improve society; they all profit from it.

At least for Scientology, the government actually tried to pull the rug, but it didn't work out because they managed to achieve the unthinkable - they successfully extorted the US government to keep their tax-exempt status.

Re:OpenAI's employees were given two explanations for why Sa... by gardenhedge on Tuesday November 21, 2023 @03:01AM (#38360745)
An argument could be made that sports - and a sports organization - helps society
Re:OpenAI's employees were given two explanations for why Sa... by passion__desire on Tuesday November 21, 2023 @03:14AM (#38360829)
Fast fashion and fashion industry in general is useless to society. But rich jobless people need a place to hangout so they create an activity to justify.
Re:OpenAI's employees were given two explanations for why Sa... by achenet on Tuesday November 21, 2023 @06:01AM (#38362060)
useless to society...

fashion allows people to optimize their appearance so as to get more positive attention from others. Or, put more crudely, it helps people look good so they can get laid.

Not sure that it's net positive for society as a whole, but individual humans certainly benefit from the fashion industry. Ask anyone who has ever received a compliment on their outfit.

This is true for rich people as well as not so rich people - having spent some time working as a salesman at H&M, I can tell you that lower income members of society (like, for example, H&M employees making minimum wage) are very happy to spend a fair percentage of their income on clothing.

Re:OpenAI's employees were given two explanations for why Sa... by dheavy on Tuesday November 21, 2023 @06:48AM (#38362392)
It goes even deeper than getting laid if you study Costume History and its psychological importance.

It is a powerful medium of self-expression and social identity yes, deeply rooted in human history where costumes and attire have always signified cultural, social, and economic status.

Drawing from tribal psychology, it fulfills an innate human desire for belonging and individuality, enabling people to communicate their affiliation, status, and personal values through their choice of clothing.

It has always been and will always be part of humanity, even if its industrialization in Capitalistic societies like ours have hidden this fact.

OP's POV is just a bit narrow, that's all.

Re:OpenAI's employees were given two explanations for why Sa... by atq2119 on Tuesday November 21, 2023 @08:13AM (#38363196)
Clothing is important in that sense, but fashion as a changing thing and especially fast fashion isn't. I suppose it can be a nice hobby for some, but for society as a whole it's at best a wasteful zero-sum pursuit.
Re:OpenAI's employees were given two explanations for why Sa... by mensetmanusman on Tuesday November 21, 2023 @08:49AM (#38363545)
we can correlate now that the more fast fashion there is the less people are coupling though...
Re:OpenAI's employees were given two explanations for why Sa... by passion__desire on Tuesday November 21, 2023 @12:02PM (#38366393)
There was a tweet by Elon which said that we are optimizing for short term pleasure. OnlyFans exists just for this. Pleasure industry creates jobs as well but do we need so much of it?
Re:OpenAI's employees were given two explanations for why Sa... by dheavy on Tuesday November 21, 2023 @06:43AM (#38362350)
> fashion industry in general is useless to society > rich jobless people need a place to hangout

You're talking about an industry that generates approximately $1.5 trillion globally, employing more than 60 million people globally, from multi-disciplinary skills in fashion design, illustration, web development, e-commerce, AI, digital marketing.

Re:OpenAI's employees were given two explanations for why Sa... by passion__desire on Tuesday November 21, 2023 @08:27AM (#38363317)
well, web3 created lot of economic activity and jobs, it doesn't mean it is useful.
Re:OpenAI's employees were given two explanations for why Sa... by quickthrower2 on Tuesday November 21, 2023 @03:10AM (#38360809)
As does a peer to peer taxi company.
Re:OpenAI's employees were given two explanations for why Sa... by renewiltord on Tuesday November 21, 2023 @03:30AM (#38360959)
Indeed, and one for ChatGPT.
Re:OpenAI's employees were given two explanations for why Sa... by arrosenberg on Tuesday November 21, 2023 @12:44PM (#38367061)
Sure you can, but I wouldn't make that argument about the NFL. They exist to enrich 30 owners and Roger Goodell. They don't even live up to their own mission statement - most fans deride it as the No Fun League.
Re:OpenAI's employees were given two explanations for why Sa... by some1else on Tuesday November 21, 2023 @05:50AM (#38361962)
Starting OpenAI as a fork of Scientology from the get go would have saved everyone a great deal of hair splitting.
Re:OpenAI's employees were given two explanations for why Sa... by polygamous_bat on Tuesday November 21, 2023 @07:22AM (#38362674)

  :s/Xenu/AGI/g
Re:OpenAI's employees were given two explanations for why Sa... by whelp_24 on Tuesday November 21, 2023 @07:36AM (#38362802)
The NFL also is a non-profit in charge of for-profits. Except they never pretended to be a charity, just an event organizer.
Re:OpenAI's employees were given two explanations for why Sa... by depr on Tuesday November 21, 2023 @07:58AM (#38363063)
So what is your belief about why they exist?
Re:OpenAI's employees were given two explanations for why Sa... by mensetmanusman on Tuesday November 21, 2023 @08:31AM (#38363353)
it's also your belief that sports like the nfl do not improve society ...

beliefs can't be proven or disproven, they are axioms.

Re:OpenAI's employees were given two explanations for why Sa... by ameister14 on Tuesday November 21, 2023 @10:08AM (#38364619)
No - that's the reasoning behind the law.

You appear to be struggling with the idea that the law as enacted does not accomplish the goal it was created to accomplish and are working backwards to say that because it is not accomplishing this goal that couldn't have been why it was enacted.

Non-profits are supposed to benefit their community. Could the law be better? Sure, but that doesn't change the purpose behind it.

Re:OpenAI's employees were given two explanations for why Sa... by turquoisevar on Tuesday November 21, 2023 @03:00PM (#38369224)
Bad actors exploiting good things isn’t in and of itself an indictment of said good things.
Re:OpenAI's employees were given two explanations for why Sa... by todd3834 on Tuesday November 21, 2023 @02:37AM (#38360556)
I don’t think OpenAI ever reported to be profitable. They are allowed and should make money so they can stay alive. ChatGPT has already had a tremendous positive impact on society. The cause of safe AGI is going to take a lot of money in more research.
Re:OpenAI's employees were given two explanations for why Sa... by shafyy on Tuesday November 21, 2023 @02:42AM (#38360592)
> ChatGPT has already had a tremendous positive impact on society.

Citation needed

Re:OpenAI's employees were given two explanations for why Sa... by todd3834 on Tuesday November 21, 2023 @02:47AM (#38360627)
Fair enough, I should have said, it’s my opinion that it has had a positive impact. I still think it’s easy to see them as a non profit. Even with everything they announced at AI day.

Can anyone make an argument against it? Or just downvote because you don’t agree.

Re:OpenAI's employees were given two explanations for why Sa... by sgt101 on Tuesday November 21, 2023 @04:16AM (#38361289)
I think ChatGPT has created some harms:

- It's been used unethically for psychological and medical purposes (with insufficient testing and insufficient consent, and possible psychological and physical harms).

- It has been used to distort educational attainment and undermine the current basis of some credentials as a result.

- It has been used to create synthetic content that has been released unmarked into the internet distorting and biasing future models trained on that content.

- It has been used to support criminal activity (scams).

- It has been used to create propaganda & fake news.

- It has devalued and replaced the work of people who relied on that work for their incomes.

Re:OpenAI's employees were given two explanations for why Sa... by VBprogrammer on Tuesday November 21, 2023 @06:06AM (#38362079)
> - It has been used to distort educational attainment and undermine the current basis of some credentials as a result.

I'm going to go ahead and call this a positive. If the means for measuring ability in some fields is beaten by a stochastic parrot then these fields need to adapt their methods so that testing measures understanding in a variety of ways.

I'm only slightly bitter because I was always rubbish at long form essays. Thankfully in CS these were mostly an afterthought.

Re:OpenAI's employees were given two explanations for why Sa... by zztop44 on Tuesday November 21, 2023 @08:15AM (#38363218)
What if the credentials in question are a high school certificate? ChatGPT has certainly made life more difficult for high school and middle school teachers.
Re:OpenAI's employees were given two explanations for why Sa... by VBprogrammer on Tuesday November 21, 2023 @08:57AM (#38363641)
In which ways it it more difficult? Presumably a high school certificate encompasses more than just writing long form essays? You presumably have to show an understanding in worked examples in maths, physics, chemistry, biology etc?

I feel like the invention of calculators probably came with the same worries about how kids would ever learn to count.

Re:OpenAI's employees were given two explanations for why Sa... by munksbeer on Tuesday November 21, 2023 @06:01AM (#38362061)
> It has devalued and replaced the work of people who relied on that work for their incomes.

Many people (myself included) would argue that is true for almost all technological progress and adds more value to society as a whole than it takes away.

Obviously the comparisons are not exact, and have been made many times already, but you can just pick one of countless examples that devalued certain workers wages but made so many more people better off.

Re:OpenAI's employees were given two explanations for why Sa... by sgt101 on Tuesday November 21, 2023 @10:46AM (#38365224)
Sure - agree... but

- because it's happened before doesn't make it ok (especially for the folks who it happens to)

- many more people may be better off, and it may be a social good eventually, but this is not for sure

- there is no mechanism for any redistribution or support for the people suddenly and unexpectedly displaced.

Re:OpenAI's employees were given two explanations for why Sa... by munksbeer on Wednesday November 22, 2023 @10:17AM (#38380371)
Well then, are we in agreement that you can't use the argument that ChatGPT replaced some people's work as an overall negative without a lot more qualification?
Re:OpenAI's employees were given two explanations for why Sa... by vbo on Tuesday November 21, 2023 @05:57AM (#38362029)
and so has the internet. some use it for good, others for evil.

these are behaviours and traits of the user, not the tool.

Re:OpenAI's employees were given two explanations for why Sa... by sgt101 on Tuesday November 21, 2023 @10:52AM (#38365309)
I can use a 5ltr V8 to drive to school and back or a Nissan Leaf.

Neither thing is evil, or good, but the choice of what is used and what is available to use for a particular task has moral significance.

Re:OpenAI's employees were given two explanations for why Sa... by jll29 on Tuesday November 21, 2023 @04:19AM (#38361306)
I think it's fair to say that after a lot of empty promises, AI research finally delivered something that can "wow" the general population, and has been demonstrated to be useful for more than an single use case.

I know a law firm that tried ChatGPT to write a legal letter, and they were shocked that it use the same structure that they were told to use in law school (little surprise here, actually).

Re:OpenAI's employees were given two explanations for why Sa... by latexr on Tuesday November 21, 2023 @05:01AM (#38361643)
I also know of a lawyer who tried ChatGPT and was shocked by the results.

https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2023/05/lawyer-cited-6-f...

Re:OpenAI's employees were given two explanations for why Sa... by u32480932048 on Tuesday November 21, 2023 @12:12PM (#38366559)
I used it to respond to a summons which, due to postal delays, I had to get in the mail that afternoon. I typed my "wtf is this" story into ChatGPT, it came up with a response and asked for dismissal. I did some light editing to remove/edit claims that weren't quite true or I felt were dramatically exaggerated, and a week later, the case was dismissed (without prejudice).

It was total nonsense anyway, and the path to dismissal was obvious and straightforward, starting with jurisdiction, so I'm not sure how effective it would be in a "real" situation. I definitely see it being great for boilerplate or templating though.

Re:OpenAI's employees were given two explanations for why Sa... by shafyy on Tuesday November 21, 2023 @04:48AM (#38361541)
For what it's worth, I didn't downvote you.

Depends on what you define as positive impact. Helping programmers write boiler plate code faster? Summarize a document for lazy fuckers who can't get themselves to read two page? Ok, not sure if this is what I would consider "positive impact".

For a list of negative impacts, see the sister comments. I'd also like to add that the energy usage of LLMs like ChatGPT is immensely high, and this in a time where we need to cut carbon emissions. And mostly used for shits and gigles by some boomers.

Re:OpenAI's employees were given two explanations for why Sa... by sebzim4500 on Tuesday November 21, 2023 @05:30AM (#38361830)
Your examples seem so obviously to me to be a "positive impact" that I can't really understand your comment.

Of course saving time for 100 million people is positive.

Re:OpenAI's employees were given two explanations for why Sa... by mejutoco on Tuesday November 21, 2023 @06:31AM (#38362266)
Not arguing either way, but it is conceivable that reading comprehension (which is not stellar in general) can get even worse. Saving time for the same quality would be a positive. Saving time for a different quality might depend on the use-case. For a rough summary of a novel it might be ok, for a legal/medical use, might literally kill you.
Re:OpenAI's employees were given two explanations for why Sa... by shafyy on Wednesday November 22, 2023 @05:57AM (#38377626)
"Positive impact" for me would be things like improve social injustice, reduce poverty, reduce CO2 emissions, etc. Not saying that it's a negative impact to make programmers more productive, but it's not like ChatGPT is saving the world.
Re:OpenAI's employees were given two explanations for why Sa... by xinayder on Tuesday November 21, 2023 @03:33AM (#38360987)
I like to read that, besides the problems others have listed, OpenAI seems like it was built on top of the work of others, who were researching AI, and suddenly took all this "free work" from the contributors and sold it for a profit where the original contributors didn't even see a single dime from their work.

To me it seems like it's the usual case of a company exploiting open source and profiting off others' contributions.

Re:OpenAI's employees were given two explanations for why Sa... by saiya-jin on Tuesday November 21, 2023 @03:58AM (#38361152)
Or any other say pharma company using massively and constantly basic research done by universities worldwide from our tax money. And then you go to pharmacy and buy medicine that costed 50 cents to manufacture and distribute for 50 bucks.

I don't like the whole idea neither, but various communism-style alternatives just don't work very well.

Re:OpenAI's employees were given two explanations for why Sa... by tokai on Tuesday November 21, 2023 @09:25AM (#38364001)
Pharma companies spend billions on financing public research. Hell the Novo Nordisk Foundation is be biggest charitable foundation in the world.
Re:OpenAI's employees were given two explanations for why Sa... by sgt101 on Tuesday November 21, 2023 @04:20AM (#38361318)
Personally I don't think that the use of previous research is an issue, the fact is that the investment and expertise required to take that research and create GPT-4 were very significant and the en-devour was pretty risky. Very few people five years ago thought that very large models could be created that would be able to encode so much information or be able to retrieve it so well.
Re:OpenAI's employees were given two explanations for why Sa... by ascv on Tuesday November 21, 2023 @02:34AM (#38360529)
It seemed to me the entire point of the legal structure was to raise private capital. It's a lot easier to cut a check when you might get up to 100x your principal versus just a tax write off. This culminated in the MS deal: lots of money and lots of hardware to train their models.
Re:OpenAI's employees were given two explanations for why Sa... by foota on Tuesday November 21, 2023 @02:51AM (#38360655)
What's confusing is that... open AI wouldn't ever be controlled by those that invested, and the owners (e.g., the board) aren't necessarily profit seeking. At least when you take a minority investment in a normal startup you are generally assuming that the owners are in it to have a successful business. It's just a little weird all around to me.
Re:OpenAI's employees were given two explanations for why Sa... by quickthrower2 on Tuesday November 21, 2023 @03:15AM (#38360843)
Microsoft get to act as a sole distributor for the enterprise. That is quite valuable. Plus they are still in at the poker table and a few raises from winning the pot (maybe they just did!) but even without this chaos they are likely setting themselves up to be the for-profit investor if it ever transitioned to that. For a small amount of money (for MS) they get a lot of upside.