News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:No Bing, no Edge, no upselling: De-crufted Windows 11 com... by magnio on Thursday November 16, 2023 @11:11PM (#38299464)
Maybe I'm overthinking this, but how on earth did the EU pass a regulation[0] with such far-reaching implications? First Apple opening up to third-party app stores and RCS, now Microsoft giving users a bit more leeway. How come none of the big tech lobby against it in the EU? If it survives the waves of appeals, the DMA will probably change the entire technology landscape in the near future.

Not that I'm complaining of course, but still, quite a surreal moment.

[0]: https://www.engadget.com/eu-confirms-the-six-tech-giants-sub...

The 6 companies are Google, Amazon, Apple, Meta, ByteDance, and Microsoft.

Re:No Bing, no Edge, no upselling: De-crufted Windows 11 com... by waythenewsgoes on Thursday November 16, 2023 @11:20PM (#38299530)
I would imagine they did lobby against this, likely fighting tooth and nail legally. However I do not think the EU is as easily swayed, especially as EU regulators are generally skeptical of the business practices of large US multinationals. IMO, and possibly objectively, the EU is generally more pro-competition and pro-privacy, it is also much harder to buy out politicians due to the parties being really fragmented and it would appear more difficult to unilaterally impose the will of these corps on their citizens.
Re:No Bing, no Edge, no upselling: De-crufted Windows 11 com... by danieldk on Friday November 17, 2023 @02:02AM (#38300439)
especially as EU regulators are generally skeptical of the business practices of large US multinationals

The singling out of US multinationals is a bit of a myth, it's just more visible to us tech people and since the revenues are larger, the fines also tend to be larger. But they also fined Daimler, Scania, DAF, Philips, Volvo, Deutsche Bank, etc.

http://fingfx.thomsonreuters.com/gfx/editorcharts/EU-GOOGLE-...

Re:No Bing, no Edge, no upselling: De-crufted Windows 11 com... by dmitrygr on Friday November 17, 2023 @03:22AM (#38300914)
> and pro-privacy

Are we talking about the same EU that is currently attempting to ban encryption?

Re:No Bing, no Edge, no upselling: De-crufted Windows 11 com... by sveme on Friday November 17, 2023 @03:35AM (#38300974)
That's been put down by the EU parliament. But yes, the EU is definitely not a single entity with a single position on things.
Re:No Bing, no Edge, no upselling: De-crufted Windows 11 com... by cydodon on Friday November 17, 2023 @03:33AM (#38300956)
"The" EU is not a monolithic thing, there are liberal and conservative factions. Depending on the topic the resulting consensus can move quite a bit on that spectrum...
Re:No Bing, no Edge, no upselling: De-crufted Windows 11 com... by Sakos on Friday November 17, 2023 @03:36AM (#38300979)
Unfortunately, yes. Despite that, they haven't yet passed anything that undermines encryption and they've passed plenty that helps protect privacy.
Re:No Bing, no Edge, no upselling: De-crufted Windows 11 com... by dimtion on Thursday November 16, 2023 @11:20PM (#38299533)
It is called the Brussels Effect[0]

Put simply, given how large the EU market is, and how strong its regulation is, it is cheaper for companies to comply, even outside of the market.

[0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brussels_effect

Re:No Bing, no Edge, no upselling: De-crufted Windows 11 com... by SkiFire13 on Friday November 17, 2023 @03:57AM (#38301122)
This explains why they comply to the EU regulations even in the USA, but not why they don't try to lobby more in the EU to avoid those regulations in the first place.
Re:No Bing, no Edge, no upselling: De-crufted Windows 11 com... by deafpolygon on Friday November 17, 2023 @04:37AM (#38301374)
One reason is that there are more hands in the cookie jar in the EU. Less so in the US.
Re:No Bing, no Edge, no upselling: De-crufted Windows 11 com... by BlarfMcFlarf on Friday November 17, 2023 @02:09AM (#38300473)
Because while corruption* is still rampant in the EU, it’s not at least directly protected by the constitution like in the USA, so occasionally some legislation that benefits normal folks over megacorporations manages to sneak through.

*also known as lobbying with so much money you can buy millions of times as much “free” speech as everyone else.

Re:No Bing, no Edge, no upselling: De-crufted Windows 11 com... by realusername on Friday November 17, 2023 @02:34AM (#38300622)
And additionally, the large tech corporations are not from to EU and they contribute very little to the EU relative to their size with their tax reduction schemes as well.

The tech companies don't have much bargaining power in the EU because of that.

Re:No Bing, no Edge, no upselling: De-crufted Windows 11 com... by pfannkuchen on Friday November 17, 2023 @03:16AM (#38300885)
I don’t think any sane reading of the constitution makes lobbying protected. It is the current judicial interpretation, but that could certainly change in the future (more so than many other aspects of the constitution IMO).
Re:No Bing, no Edge, no upselling: De-crufted Windows 11 com... by weinzierl on Friday November 17, 2023 @03:35AM (#38300970)
It's not about "benefits normal folks" at all, but about keeping foreign competition at arms length while fostering EU companies.
Re:No Bing, no Edge, no upselling: De-crufted Windows 11 com... by alkonaut on Friday November 17, 2023 @04:24AM (#38301288)
That must be why I have one-click filed my taxes on my phone for the last 15 years while TurboTax et.al. prevents the same thing in the US. Foreign competition.
Re:No Bing, no Edge, no upselling: De-crufted Windows 11 com... by ahartmetz on Friday November 17, 2023 @03:42AM (#38301016)
IMO it's quite simple - lobbying works best at home. Most governments serve the interests of local industries more than they should, and Silicon Valley is quite obviously not in the EU. Apart from not employing many people and not paying a lot of taxes(!), some of SV companies' values are a little alien to Europeans.

Influencing a not completely corrupted government is not as simple as money in - laws out. That would work equally well everywhere.

Re:No Bing, no Edge, no upselling: De-crufted Windows 11 com... by throwaway2037 on Friday November 17, 2023 @03:43AM (#38301019)
In the EU, really? I can see it in the US, but the amount of lobbying spend in EU must be 1-2 orders of magnitude less.

Also, all highly advanced democracies have some lobbying. It is not viewed widely by political scientists as corruption.

Re:No Bing, no Edge, no upselling: De-crufted Windows 11 com... by hnhg on Friday November 17, 2023 @06:58AM (#38302331)
If you spend time in brussels it becomes quite difficult to avoid lobbyists. They are perfectly nice people but apparently everywhere, for every sector and very much full time there.
Re:No Bing, no Edge, no upselling: De-crufted Windows 11 com... by piyush_soni on Friday November 17, 2023 @04:06AM (#38301172)
This always surprises me. While as an Indian I'm ashamed of the level of corruption we have in every government system of ours, at least it's still called corruption (and is illegal) what US calls lobbying (and is legal).
Re:No Bing, no Edge, no upselling: De-crufted Windows 11 com... by zealotsm on Friday November 17, 2023 @04:54AM (#38301496)
Sadly, electoral bonds make this less true. All the benefits of lobbying for businesses with none of the transparency that political donations have in the US.
Re:No Bing, no Edge, no upselling: De-crufted Windows 11 com... by PoignardAzur on Friday November 17, 2023 @05:25AM (#38301668)
... sigh.

Lobbying isn't equivalent to corruption.

While the two can get very similar in the US because US elections have no campaign spending cap, therefore politicians (and even some civil servants) have a constant need for massive political donations, in general lobbying is a lot more complex than "spend money, get law you like". It usually involves a high amount of, you guessed it, waiting around in lobbies.

In the EU, the stereotypical industry lobbyist is a guy who will invite some commission members to a very fancy restaurant and tell them "About this regulation you're passing, we've prepared a full binder on it, with different policy options you could consider, case studies illustrating the trade-offs of each option, ideas for further research, etc".

Bureaucrats know that the content of the binder will be biased towards the interests of the companies that funded it, but they still read it because it's full of industry information and technical knowledge they don't have.

There's allegedly a bit of give and take, where they expect the info to be biased, but not too obviously biased otherwise they stop returning your calls.

Good bureaucrats will then cross-reference that info with info from competing interest groups, researchers, wikipedia, etc, and hope that they end up with a balanced view of the industry. Bad bureaucrats will just copy the biggest group's proposed laws verbatim.

But in any case, calling it "rampant corruption" is just ignorant. There's a lot of thought put into that process beyond "do what the corporations want".

Re:No Bing, no Edge, no upselling: De-crufted Windows 11 com... by hnhg on Friday November 17, 2023 @06:56AM (#38302312)
Your post didn’t require the impolite sigh and reads much better without it.
Re:No Bing, no Edge, no upselling: De-crufted Windows 11 com... by PoignardAzur on Saturday November 18, 2023 @08:13AM (#38319155)
That's fair, I could have worded my annoyance better (or skipped it altogether).

Too late to edit.

Re:No Bing, no Edge, no upselling: De-crufted Windows 11 com... by throw101010 on Friday November 17, 2023 @07:23AM (#38302550)
> Because while corruption* is still rampant in the EU

> *also known as lobbying with so much money you can buy millions of times as much “free” speech as everyone else.

Firstly, corruption is not "rampant" in the European Union, it is on average the least corrupt political organization on this planet: https://www.transparency.org/en/cpi/2022

Secondly, lobbying is not corruption, it is legalized, registered and regulated in most EU members and at the Union's level even more so.

If interest groups cannot communicate their interests to politicians, how do you expect politicians to inform their votes, make laws, and take decisions? Should they just guess or know everything about every topic they are solicited about? Should they "Google" the answers (the irony here should strike you in regards to the original post)?

Re:No Bing, no Edge, no upselling: De-crufted Windows 11 com... by switch007 on Friday November 17, 2023 @02:13AM (#38300499)
Perhaps they agreed to overlook some tax evasion or something
Re:No Bing, no Edge, no upselling: De-crufted Windows 11 com... by zerr on Friday November 17, 2023 @02:55AM (#38300750)
Btw, Microsoft seems to be circumventing US/EU sanctions. While traveling to eastern Europe, the fresh installation of Edge has yandex (pootin-linked company) as the default search engine, and also proposes other similarly shady websites like mailru.
Re:No Bing, no Edge, no upselling: De-crufted Windows 11 com... by severino on Friday November 17, 2023 @05:21AM (#38301649)
I don't think there is any EU sanction related to Yandex. I could always access it (with my default ISP settings, no VPN nor anything like that) and I don't know of anybody who couldn't, at least from inside the EU.
Re:No Bing, no Edge, no upselling: De-crufted Windows 11 com... by zerr on Friday November 17, 2023 @06:57AM (#38302321)
I mean the deal Microsoft has with yandex to have it as the default search engine.
Re:No Bing, no Edge, no upselling: De-crufted Windows 11 com... by vbeeaz on Friday November 17, 2023 @03:49AM (#38301069)
Because the EU does not have a tech sector, so they can pass any tech regulations without any fear for blowback.
Re:No Bing, no Edge, no upselling: De-crufted Windows 11 com... by BurningPenguin on Friday November 17, 2023 @05:24AM (#38301664)
Dude, we don't live in the middle ages. We have a tech sector. ASML, SAP, Infineon, Nokia, Dassault Systèmes and so on.
Re:No Bing, no Edge, no upselling: De-crufted Windows 11 com... by heavyset_go on Saturday November 18, 2023 @09:08PM (#38327651)
If you're using a processor that was manufactured in the last decade, it was built using machines that the entire world depends upon that are only designed and produced in the EU.
Re:No Bing, no Edge, no upselling: De-crufted Windows 11 com... by rollulus on Friday November 17, 2023 @03:52AM (#38301091)
Re: “not lobbying”: Google, Meta and Apple are in the top 10 by budget: https://www.lobbyfacts.eu/
Re:No Bing, no Edge, no upselling: De-crufted Windows 11 com... by thefz on Friday November 17, 2023 @03:55AM (#38301105)
> How come none of the big tech lobby against it in the EU?

Because believe it or not, corporations are legally people and are required to obey the law. Not above the law, like in the US.

Lobby all you want, but weigh the cost of having an entire market worth millions of people denied to your business. Comply or GTFO.

Re:No Bing, no Edge, no upselling: De-crufted Windows 11 com... by chakintosh on Friday November 17, 2023 @04:49AM (#38301456)
> lobby

There is no such thing in the EU. You can't just waltz into the European parliament and lobby (read: bribe) your way into regulations that favor you like it's the case in the USA. Once the parliament votes on something, it's done.

Re:No Bing, no Edge, no upselling: De-crufted Windows 11 com... by actionfromafar on Friday November 17, 2023 @04:52AM (#38301474)
Sarcasm?
Re:No Bing, no Edge, no upselling: De-crufted Windows 11 com... by majewsky on Friday November 17, 2023 @07:53AM (#38302824)
> Once the parliament votes on something, it's done.

The Council and the Commission would like to have a word with you: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Formal_trilogue_meeting

Re:No Bing, no Edge, no upselling: De-crufted Windows 11 com... by lemper on Friday November 17, 2023 @05:04AM (#38301543)
> how come?

eu seem to care about its citizens it seems. so, it might be dumbfounding for citizens of nations with government who give zero fucks about its own citizens.

> lobbying

in other countries, it is called bribery. most of the time, it's illegal.

Re:No Bing, no Edge, no upselling: De-crufted Windows 11 com... by timeon on Friday November 17, 2023 @05:11AM (#38301594)
It is also happening in EU. It just bit harder than in 2-party system.
Re:No Bing, no Edge, no upselling: De-crufted Windows 11 com... by PoignardAzur on Friday November 17, 2023 @05:39AM (#38301752)
> How come none of the big tech lobby against it in the EU?

Because lobbying isn't equivalent to corruption and doesn't automatically get you the laws you want.

The European Commission had a three months comment period in 2020 where various interest groups (FAANGs, non-profits, media groups, open-source giants like Mozilla, etc) all submitted their position (which IIRC usually boiled down to "yeah, regulating is awesome, please regulate everyone but me!"). It submitted its report in December 2020, at which point most of the key points were already decided.

No doubt interest groups sent a lot of people to lobbies in the following years to discuss details and push in one direction or another, but by then the commission and parliament had a pretty good idea what they wanted the final law to look like anyway.