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Re:Stop deploying web application firewalls by theideaofcoffee on Monday November 13, 2023 @03:58PM (#38255302)
People will stop deploying WAFs when the compliance standards are rewritten to not require them. They are prominent in lots of installations because the box ticking exercise of compliance frameworks, namely PCI or HIPAA, require a WAF-like component to reach compliance. It took long enough for them to be written in that now everyone knows they need one. It will be even longer for them to be phased out, and no one with risk assessors wants to be the first to remove them. Too much risk they say, regardless of how strenuously the tech component say they're unneeded.
Re:Stop deploying web application firewalls by briffle on Monday November 13, 2023 @04:00PM (#38255318)
We are still waiting on compliance standards to update their password change policies to reflect what most people have been saying for over a decade, that frequently changing passwords are a security risk..
Re:Stop deploying web application firewalls by kibwen on Monday November 13, 2023 @04:10PM (#38255435)
NIST itself has been actively discouraging password rotation since 2016: https://pages.nist.gov/800-63-3/sp800-63b.html#memorizedsecr...
Re:Stop deploying web application firewalls by rjzzleep on Monday November 13, 2023 @04:16PM (#38255511)
But then how will Cyberark make money?
Re:Stop deploying web application firewalls by Arrath on Monday November 13, 2023 @05:01PM (#38255979)
I expect you have 3M lobbying on the other side of the issue in the interest of post-it sales.
Re:Stop deploying web application firewalls by dmvdoug on Monday November 13, 2023 @07:23PM (#38257224)
I am so sending this to our district IT people the next time they make us change our passwords at school.
Re:Stop deploying web application firewalls by jwestbury on Tuesday November 14, 2023 @04:26AM (#38260978)
NIST discourages it, but most of the US government still requires it. In fact, I used to have a 60-day password rotation policy with such brilliant requirements as "no more than three characters of one class sequentially."

I soon realised that "ShitFuck!", thus, was a valid password -- and off I went. Meanwhile, a teammate who had previously been a technical writer contracting with the NSA told of the "waterfall method" -- not of software developments, but of passwords. It was common in his world, apparently, and you could always hear he was typing his password by the staccato of QazWsxEdc123, etc.

Re:Stop deploying web application firewalls by justsomehnguy on Tuesday November 14, 2023 @06:12AM (#38261806)
It's always amuses me what a domain name with a number in it ticks '3 of 4'.
Re:Stop deploying web application firewalls by rwmj on Monday November 13, 2023 @04:38PM (#38255735)
The PCI-DSS website itself requires that you change password every 12 months. At the same time the period for recertifying PCI-DSS is ... every 12 months. I have a systematic way to create a new password each time, which probably isn't secure.
Re:Stop deploying web application firewalls by geraldwhen on Monday November 13, 2023 @06:08PM (#38256606)
I have to rotate my password at work every 3 months. Without a system, it wouldn’t be sustainable.
Re:Stop deploying web application firewalls by junon on Tuesday November 14, 2023 @06:12AM (#38261810)
Got into a quarrel about this with our IT director at a previous company. I wish there was a security best practices FAQ I could link to for this sort of stuff.
Re:Stop deploying web application firewalls by placatedmayhem on Wednesday November 15, 2023 @12:28PM (#38279503)
As a peer post of yours pointed out, NIST changed guidance to discourage password changes years ago:

https://pages.nist.gov/800-63-3/sp800-63b.html#memorizedsecr...

Re:Stop deploying web application firewalls by jiggawatts on Monday November 13, 2023 @04:03PM (#38255357)
I call it magic security pixie dust.

You sprinkle it on top of code riddled with SQL injections nobody could be bothered to avoid or fix, and now magically the code has a become secure!

You’ll find it on the shelf next to auto-scaling cloud wizardry, which can similarly be used to fix the total absence of indexes in the database.

Re:Stop deploying web application firewalls by threeseed on Monday November 13, 2023 @04:20PM (#38255572)
1) WAF do far more than just prevent SQL injections.

2) Many companies don't own the software they run and so they can't guarantee that it is free of SQL injections or that the version of ORM libraries are secure. WAF protect against this.

3) Auto-scaling is just as much about high availability than performance. Database indexes do not help with the former.

Re:Stop deploying web application firewalls by SonOfLilit on Monday November 13, 2023 @04:47PM (#38255820)
I did not downvote you, but as the article explains, WAFs don't protect against anything assuming the attacker bothers to spend five minutes bypassing them with one of a thousand well-known tricks.
Re:Stop deploying web application firewalls by threeseed on Monday November 13, 2023 @04:55PM (#38255901)
> assuming the attacker bothers to spend five minutes bypassing them with one of a thousand well-known tricks

I didn't realise AWS, Cloudflare etc were so incompetent that their product can be bypassed in 5 minutes. I assume you have an example of this.

Re:Stop deploying web application firewalls by verve_rat on Monday November 13, 2023 @05:12PM (#38256091)
Padding requests with 8k of normal looking data will bypass AWS's WAF 100% of the time according to the article.

Maybe you should read it.

Re:Stop deploying web application firewalls by woleium on Monday November 13, 2023 @05:36PM (#38256329)
Will it though? Maybe you should test it.
Re:Stop deploying web application firewalls by threeseed on Monday November 13, 2023 @06:16PM (#38256676)
I read it and it's a design decision documented here:

https://docs.aws.amazon.com/waf/latest/developerguide/waf-ov...

For oversize requests WAF can be configured to reject it.

Re:Stop deploying web application firewalls by diarrhea on Monday November 13, 2023 @06:31PM (#38256804)
Two observations:

8KB is a small amount of data. Many apps will need more, so will not be able to blanket block these. Even 64k, what appears to be the absolute limit, might not be enough.

Continuing, not blocking, is the default when not using the console, making this insecure by default.

Re:Stop deploying web application firewalls by threeseed on Monday November 13, 2023 @07:47PM (#38257387)
You should be using multi-part/chunked encoding for large file sizes as it helps prevents DDOS attacks.

And having an insecure default is a huge difference from 100% of requests are allowed.

Re:Stop deploying web application firewalls by lyu07282 on Monday November 13, 2023 @06:57PM (#38257010)
It's not about competency but the fundamental nature of WAFs. It's like using a regular expression to sanitize input parameters you concatenate into a SQL query, except you also can't make it specific to the SQL dialect used. It doesn't matter how competent you are or how much money you spend on engineering the regular expression.
Re:Stop deploying web application firewalls by SonOfLilit on Tuesday November 14, 2023 @06:20AM (#38261884)
In my day, I've bypassed all kinds of expensive fancy security products in five minutes.

This guide, linked from the article, shows some simple evergreen bypass techniques (section "WAF bypass cheat sheet"):

https://habr.com/en/companies/dsec/articles/454592/

Re:Stop deploying web application firewalls by xyzzy123 on Monday November 13, 2023 @05:24PM (#38256213)
Look, if you want a "real" WAF capability you buy something like Imperva and manage the care and feeding of a team of say 2-4 ppl who understand web app vulnerabilities in depth, AND know the tool. Your SOC/NOC will need training and procedures too. Fully loaded an average enterprise will pay > $1M a year to maintain the capability if you look at the TCO carefully.

There are environments where this makes sense. Banks are the classic - they have the money, they care about the risk, lots of places have systems still on java 8 and take > 1 month to deploy code fixes.

The biggest practical problem in my experience is that it's almost impossible to keep good people maintaining an enterprise WAF. Anyone with a deep enough understanding of web app security and network infra to do the job properly will get bored in the role and leave. WAFs are usually barely maintained for this reason.

Another major issue is alert handling - there's nobody with enough context. The SOC staff usually understand nothing (not the vuln, not web, not the app). The devs don't understand the vuln and the security team don't understand the app so tickets go round in circles with nobody able to understand if an alert is an FP or an actual issue. Eventually alerts start getting quietly dropped on the floor.

Re:Stop deploying web application firewalls by threeseed on Monday November 13, 2023 @06:22PM (#38256730)
Most enterprises have moved public facing sites to the cloud. And so are making use of the cloud provided WAF solutions all of which are trivial enough for someone to manage part-time.

Also in 20+ years in enterprises have never heard of firewalls being left unmaintained. I don't know how that would pass security audits, why such a critical piece of security architecture would end up in this state or how any in-house development would work given the constant need to make changes to it.

Re:Stop deploying web application firewalls by xyzzy123 on Monday November 13, 2023 @06:56PM (#38257001)
I do agree lightweight cloud WAFs can have positive ROI. You have to be realistic about their capabilities however and what you can expect from a part-timer managing one.

You end up choosing between a heavyweight "advanced" WAF (either cloud or on-prem) that requires lots of tuning and response, which most orgs can't do properly, or a lightweight cloud WAF with vendor rules that doesn't do much but hey at least it's easy to look after.

Re: enterprise WAF maintenance, I know this is anecdotal but I was a pentester for 10 years and I could count the "non-dysfunctional enterprise WAF setups" I saw on one hand. Were you in a role where you talked to the staff who looked after them or dealt with the alerts? Often the org lacked the insight to understand there was a problem. "We bought the magic security box, we applied the patches, what's the issue?"

Re:Stop deploying web application firewalls by scarface_74 on Monday November 13, 2023 @07:27PM (#38257248)
This isn’t true. According to none other than Andy Jassy himself has said that less than 5% of all IT infrastructure is on any cloud provider.

https://accelerationeconomy.com/cloud/amazon-shocker-ceo-jas...

Re:Stop deploying web application firewalls by threeseed on Monday November 13, 2023 @07:49PM (#38257408)
I said "public facing sites" not all IT infrastructure.

And the article you posted is about total spend not just infrastructure.

Re:Stop deploying web application firewalls by scarface_74 on Monday November 13, 2023 @08:12PM (#38257607)
Do you really think that the former CEO of AWS is not referring to the addressable market for cloud?
Re:Stop deploying web application firewalls by callalex on Monday November 13, 2023 @08:22PM (#38257686)
What does that have to do with public facing services? Stop, read, and think before ratcheting up the rudeness.
Re:Stop deploying web application firewalls by scarface_74 on Monday November 13, 2023 @08:30PM (#38257773)
So now you are going to give a better citation than the former CEO of AWS and the current CEO of Amazon…
Re:Stop deploying web application firewalls by PH95VuimJjqBqy on Thursday November 16, 2023 @03:37AM (#38287028)
stop being wrong, it's not rude to point out that you're wrong and with evidence.
Re:Stop deploying web application firewalls by mox1 on Monday November 13, 2023 @08:10PM (#38257587)
Can confirm. I work in financial services, we employ Imperva for WAF + DDoS.

Initial onboard was 2 FTE for ~6 months.

We are now at probably .5-.75 FTE. Onboarding new sites, responding to “waf broke the site”, type things and doing exceptions (for pen tests and what not).

Not sure of the TCO, but I shudder to think what would happen if we didnt have it.

We have a lot of…old…java…

Re:Stop deploying web application firewalls by lmm on Monday November 13, 2023 @08:00PM (#38257491)
> 1) WAF do far more than just prevent SQL injections.

They largely don't prevent SQL injections.

> 2) Many companies don't own the software they run and so they can't guarantee that it is free of SQL injections or that the version of ORM libraries are secure. WAF protect against this.

Only if the WAF somehow understands the internals of that software better than that software itself. Which, sure, sometimes happens, but there's no systematic reason to believe it. Why should the WAF have a better hit rate than the makers of the actual application? Does the WAF vendor offer a guarantee that systems behind it wil never be hacked?

Re:Stop deploying web application firewalls by hug on Monday November 13, 2023 @04:29PM (#38255664)
> magically the code has a become secure!

The code hasn't, but it would be a lie to say that the application hasn't, and as a leader of ops teams while I can't directly influence code security & quality, I can damn sure influence overall security by demanding a WAF.

Defense in depth is an important concept in security for a very good reason.

Re:Stop deploying web application firewalls by outworlder on Monday November 13, 2023 @06:20PM (#38256716)
> The code hasn't, but it would be a lie to say that the application hasn't

It could become less secure too, as WAF software itself can have vulnerabilities or misconfiguration.

Re:Stop deploying web application firewalls by likeclockwork on Monday November 13, 2023 @04:51PM (#38255858)
Security isn't a property of code, it is a property of a system.
Re:Stop deploying web application firewalls by xyzzy123 on Monday November 13, 2023 @04:07PM (#38255400)
> People will stop deploying WAFs when the compliance standards are rewritten to not require them.

Honestly AWS WAF is perfect for this. It's not a great WAF but it is ideal if you need "pretend to have a WAF" as a service so you can tick the box.

Re:Stop deploying web application firewalls by theideaofcoffee on Monday November 13, 2023 @04:08PM (#38255412)
As much as I hate to admit it, I've done exactly that and passed the audit. Certainly says a lot about the auditors...
Re:Stop deploying web application firewalls by ryanianian on Monday November 13, 2023 @04:11PM (#38255443)
It's basically fizzbuzz. If you have a WAF, it proves you know how to add a WAF. Presumably even one you know how to configure when security needs change.

Compliance auditors are mostly there to underwrite posture, not actual risk.

Re:Stop deploying web application firewalls by SoftTalker on Monday November 13, 2023 @04:26PM (#38255635)
Auditors pretty much only certify that you have told them you are doing what you are supposed to be doing. They are not logging in to your servers and verifying that an AWF is running in front of your web server. They are not probing your network from the outside to see if an AWF is blocking their activity.

Just as financial auditors are only confirming that your financial statements match what your accounting department tells them.

If you lie to your auditors, there's a good chance they won't catch it because that's not what they are looking for.

Re:Stop deploying web application firewalls by xyzzy123 on Monday November 13, 2023 @04:39PM (#38255753)
It's not a lie! The WAF is there, it's attached and it does absolutely nothing with unmatched performance and scalability. We tell the auditor this.
Re:Stop deploying web application firewalls by kccqzy on Monday November 13, 2023 @06:38PM (#38256857)
You can lie to these auditors, but you can't lie to pentesters. These people on the other hand are designed to probe your network from the outside.
Re:Stop deploying web application firewalls by PrimeMcFly on Monday November 13, 2023 @07:12PM (#38257130)
I've audited a lot of networks for compliance, and we always actually check that the protections that are meant to be in place are in place. I don't think I've done an audit where I wasn't using nmap to some degree.
Re:Stop deploying web application firewalls by nullindividual on Monday November 13, 2023 @05:06PM (#38256028)
In my experience with SoX, the auditors are very junior fresh out of college. They check boxes and move on.
Re:Stop deploying web application firewalls by cj on Monday November 13, 2023 @06:44PM (#38256913)
> Certainly says a lot about the auditors...

Security auditors are (quite literally) accountants.

Re:Stop deploying web application firewalls by Spivak on Monday November 13, 2023 @04:16PM (#38255514)
It's gotta be my favorite AWS service for this reason alone. It's almost useless but that's a feature not a bug. They knew exactly their market.
Re:Stop deploying web application firewalls by ForkMeOnTinder on Monday November 13, 2023 @04:22PM (#38255583)
It pairs well with the checkbox in S3 that you can tick to enable encryption with no other changes to your application.
Re:Stop deploying web application firewalls by meepmorp on Monday November 13, 2023 @04:48PM (#38255832)
Hey, if someone breaks into an AWS data center and steals some s3 drives, you're totally in the clear.
Re:Stop deploying web application firewalls by rigelina on Monday November 13, 2023 @05:46PM (#38256421)
You'd think that, but I had an auditor that had guidance requesting confirmation of security cameras on the servers. They wanted to drive to the AWS data center to see the cameras. If the drives got stolen, you'd better make sure AWS shares that video with you.
Re:Stop deploying web application firewalls by meepmorp on Monday November 13, 2023 @07:25PM (#38257236)
Ok, but what if someone bypasses the cameras on your servers with looped footage? Did the auditor think about having security cameras on the security cameras?

Amateurs.

Re:Stop deploying web application firewalls by montroser on Monday November 13, 2023 @08:24PM (#38257709)
Have they never seen Speed?
Re:Stop deploying web application firewalls by xer0x on Monday November 13, 2023 @04:18PM (#38255535)
Awesome! I feel so much better about using this to pass an audit.
Re:Stop deploying web application firewalls by RexM on Monday November 13, 2023 @04:28PM (#38255653)
Same, I was checking usernames to see if I recognized any as former co-workers where we had to do this.

I guess there's just a decent market for the product everyone trying to check that box, though.

Re:Stop deploying web application firewalls by cratermoon on Monday November 13, 2023 @07:14PM (#38257152)
The article notes the problem of the attack surface of WAF products themselves, and raises questions about the security posture of the products and the vendors. Compliance standards need to address the risks and weigh them against the benefits of WAFs. If, as the author argues, they have reached a point where they do more harm than good, the compliance bodies need to be honest about that and reevaluate recommendations.
Re:Stop deploying web application firewalls by patrakov on Tuesday November 14, 2023 @05:45AM (#38261620)
Here is a big lesson that I "learned": actual security does not matter for the purpose of avoiding risks and fines. What matters is the ability to say "we got hacked despite following the accepted best practice" or "we can shift the blame HERE". Having a paid-for WAF ticks both boxes.
Re:Stop deploying web application firewalls by cratermoon on Tuesday November 14, 2023 @11:53AM (#38265901)
> actual security does not matter

What matters, of course, is money.

Only if the WAFs themselves become a significant attack vector, to the extent where blame for breaches affects the bottom lines of the WAF vendors, the situation will start to change.