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Re:Othello Is Solved by mark_l_watson on Saturday November 04, 2023 @01:12PM (#38142994)
This is cool.

I solved a simpler game about 15 years ago that my brother and I used to play: an African game with about 10 pits on each side of the board that hold stones. I coded up an alpha-beta engine for it, and discovered crazy always win strategies to match how my brother and I played. Suddenly I would win all the games, and then he never wanted to play again. This was a classic match up of a computer scientist vs. an optometrist.

Re:Othello Is Solved by bentcorner on Saturday November 04, 2023 @01:20PM (#38143108)
> an African game with about 10 pits on each side of the board that hold stones

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mancala if you want more info

Re:Othello Is Solved by neontomo on Saturday November 04, 2023 @01:35PM (#38143277)
Also, another version I'm more familiar with from childhood is https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kalah
Re:Othello Is Solved by Magi604 on Saturday November 04, 2023 @02:12PM (#38143654)
Here is the game I played with my grandma when I was younger:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southeast_Asian_mancala

Re:Othello Is Solved by sundarurfriend on Saturday November 04, 2023 @02:24PM (#38143749)
Reminded me of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pallanguzhi

And it is indeed mentioned under the Names and Variants section. Seems likely that there's a historical connection somewhere.

Re:Othello Is Solved by kiviuq on Saturday November 04, 2023 @04:49PM (#38144994)
"The game was played by enslaved Africans to foster community and develop social skills."

..cringe...

Re:Othello Is Solved by bee_rider on Saturday November 04, 2023 @05:05PM (#38145105)
I don’t get it, what makes you want to cringe?
Re:Othello Is Solved by earthboundkid on Saturday November 04, 2023 @05:10PM (#38145145)
They’re humans and humans play games for fun.
Re:Othello Is Solved by SamBam on Saturday November 04, 2023 @09:18PM (#38147010)
"Bowling is a game played by American males to develop social skills."

Doesn't that sentence sound bizarre to you. Is that why people bowl? And isn't the implication that American males need help learning social skills?

They played the game for the same reasons that all humans have played games for millennia.

Re:Othello Is Solved by notfed on Saturday November 04, 2023 @01:15PM (#38143038)
Classic "Why nerds don't get invited to parties"!
Re:Othello Is Solved by roughly on Saturday November 04, 2023 @02:27PM (#38143795)
> computer scientist vs an optometrist

There’s a joke in here about perspective

Re:Othello Is Solved by rst4455 on Saturday November 04, 2023 @04:09PM (#38144657)
I'll byte... C#?
Re:Othello Is Solved by ornornor on Saturday November 04, 2023 @04:17PM (#38144719)
Nice
Re:Othello Is Solved by elromulous on Saturday November 04, 2023 @06:28PM (#38145843)
The brother lacked vision
Re:Othello Is Solved by gkuhl21 on Saturday November 04, 2023 @07:27PM (#38146315)
The optometrist couldn't believe his eyes.

... I'll see myself out.

Re:Othello Is Solved by probablynish on Saturday November 04, 2023 @01:38PM (#38143308)
I played this game growing up (we called it Bao) - now I know what my next party trick is going to be
Re:Othello Is Solved by sonofhans on Saturday November 04, 2023 @01:42PM (#38143344)
That is super cool. I’ve played Mankala for years and would love to hear more.

It’s instructive to see old Africans playing Mankala. They play very fast. It can become more like poker, where deceit is a part of the game. If you spam down your stones fast enough sometimes you can skip a bowl, or drop an extra stone, in order to gain advantage.

I’m not facile enough to play this way, and I play with family and so don’t cheat. It’s a very different thing, though. Like the difference between British ladies playing slow Mahjong over tea, versus people playing for money in a gambling room in China.

Re:Othello Is Solved by jonahx on Saturday November 04, 2023 @03:29PM (#38144309)
> They play very fast. It can become more like poker, where deceit is a part of the game. If you spam down your stones fast enough sometimes you can skip a bowl, or drop an extra stone, in order to gain advantage.

What you describe is just a talent at cheating, and I assume against the rules of the game. In poker, bluffing is an explicit part of the game allowed by the rules. I wouldn't even call it "deceit" in that context. At the very least, these are highly distinct categories of deceit.

Re:Othello Is Solved by weatherlight on Saturday November 04, 2023 @03:48PM (#38144482)
Sometimes there's an implicit its only cheating if you get caught.
Re:Othello Is Solved by buzzy_hacker on Saturday November 04, 2023 @04:30PM (#38144826)
Yeah, in monopoly you don’t have to pay rent if the property owner doesn’t notice.
Re:Othello Is Solved by jhbadger on Saturday November 04, 2023 @04:37PM (#38144886)
And in Scrabble it's fine to use a nonsense word if nobody challenges it.
Re:Othello Is Solved by _justinfunk on Saturday November 04, 2023 @06:15PM (#38145738)
And in American Football it's fine to deflate the ball if no one measures it.
Re:Othello Is Solved by jhbadger on Sunday November 05, 2023 @11:40AM (#38152719)
Not the same. Because there is a penalty to challenging a word that turns out to be a real obscure word found in the dictionary (the official Scrabble dictionary if you playing seriously), it is a legitimate strategy (not cheating) to use obscure words early on, be proven correct when challenged, and then use fake words that opponents are wary of challenging.
Re:Othello Is Solved by pests on Saturday November 04, 2023 @04:43PM (#38144930)
This is not implicit though.

The rules state that property owners can ask for the rent until the next player rolls the dice.

Re:Othello Is Solved by earthboundkid on Saturday November 04, 2023 @05:09PM (#38145138)
In Bullshit, I always felt that if you could trick them into taking the hand or not noticing you added an extra card, it was all part of the game.
Re:Othello Is Solved by david422 on Saturday November 04, 2023 @08:15PM (#38146623)
3 queens ... and slide a 4th card sideways underneath.
Re:Othello Is Solved by earthboundkid on Sunday November 05, 2023 @09:39PM (#38158151)
Yep.
Re:Othello Is Solved by webkike on Saturday November 04, 2023 @05:45PM (#38145484)
IMO that's still not cheating
Re:Othello Is Solved by nemo44x on Saturday November 04, 2023 @07:06PM (#38146150)
If you’re not cheating you’re not trying.
Re:Othello Is Solved by gmd63 on Saturday November 04, 2023 @07:29PM (#38146322)
If you're cheating, you're trying to lose the bigger game.
Re:Othello Is Solved by nemo44x on Monday November 06, 2023 @09:44AM (#38163285)
It’s a famous saying from NASCAR and sort of tongue-in-cheek about how everyone is probably bending the rules as much as they can and if you aren’t you can’t compete with those that are.
Re:Othello Is Solved by gmd63 on Monday November 06, 2023 @11:45AM (#38164941)
It's said in many contexts. I have no interest in a civilization in which the only skill we select for is ability to eat and deceive your fellow man. And I don't believe nature would have much interest in it either.
Re:Othello Is Solved by transcriptase on Saturday November 04, 2023 @08:02PM (#38146553)
The stats from various anti-cheat companies like Vanguard, PunkBuster, and BattleEye demonstrate that some nationalities/cultures believe this more than others.

Even when you adjust for population and CD key pricing.

Re:Othello Is Solved by klodolph on Saturday November 04, 2023 @08:05PM (#38146570)
Cheating is against the rules in mancala, but perhaps, part of the culture of the game. If you’re caught, you retract the move.
Re:Othello Is Solved by elwell on Saturday November 04, 2023 @06:02PM (#38145639)
> It can become more like poker, where deceit is a part of the game.

I wouldn't equate skipping a bowl with bluffing. Maybe, palming a chip as you put your bet in: which certainly isn't "part of the game".

Re:Othello Is Solved by furyofantares on Saturday November 04, 2023 @06:18PM (#38145763)
I also wouldn't equate it with bluffing at all, but from the description, maybe also not palming a chip. It's possible for something that's cheating among one group to be a part of the game among another.

Sports have a lot of things that are in some sense against the rules, but standard penalties are applied if caught, and it's just a part of the game, like fouling a player in basketball. Nobody considers it cheating, it's a part of the game because the penalty is standardized. Of course you still try not to get caught.

Re:Othello Is Solved by thret on Saturday November 04, 2023 @07:52PM (#38146502)
Fouling isn't cheating because it's accidental. If it were deliberate, it would be cheating.
Re:Othello Is Solved by PaulHoule on Saturday November 04, 2023 @09:01PM (#38146909)
It might be accidental and it might not.
Re:Othello Is Solved by couchand on Saturday November 04, 2023 @08:40PM (#38146787)
I'm not sure I agree with this take on basketball strategy. I'm no expert, but my understanding is that intentionally fouling in basketball is largely a time-management move? Like, you want to be "caught" because that's the whole point -- you aren't seeking an advantage in play that the penalty is meant to offset, you're seeking the penalty.
Re:Othello Is Solved by furyofantares on Saturday November 04, 2023 @09:06PM (#38146931)
Time management are an extreme scenario, NOT the main use of fouls.

Fouls are conserved and used throughout the game. They're usually somewhere between intentional and accidental - you'd rather get your hand on the ball and not foul if you can. But you'd often rather foul than they get the 2 points if those are your only options. And how many fouls you have left against their best shooters is a major consideration throughout the game.

There's an anecdote about some Kobe Bryant trash talk that I think demonstrates both that fouls are valued for stopping 2 points, but ALSO the per-player foul limit is an additional consideration and separate strategic consideration.

> So we were playing, and you know it was like a two-on-one break. And, Caron Butler fouls and stops the break. So everybody was like, "Good job! That stop stops two points."

> So, Kobe comes out... and we’re all like, "Good, Good. You saved two points."

> Kobe walks over to him and says, "Hey, who are you guarding?", and Butler responds, "You!", and he goes, "Huh... How many fouls you got?". And Caron says, "I got one!" and Kobe says, "So you only got five left? Well, you need all six fouls to guard me, and you just wasted one... on him! It’s a stupid... stupid play!"

> And you had to think about it like... "God, he’s right!"

Re:Othello Is Solved by EGreg on Sunday November 05, 2023 @01:28AM (#38148551)
When I was 14 and in my first year of college, the lady teaching my course in C gave me a project for an extra grade (because I had skipped a lot of classes, I think). Anyway, it was to program Mancala in C, which I did using Allegro Library I think at the time. Fun times!
Re:Othello Is Solved by elwell on Tuesday November 07, 2023 @01:40PM (#38180940)
Simpler times! I remember working on "Skateopoly", a skateboarding themed Monopoly, in middle school with JavaScript. I should code a fun little game, it's been a while...
Re:Othello Is Solved by CyberDildonics on Saturday November 04, 2023 @01:44PM (#38143359)
Mancala and connect four are classic examples of solved games.

computer scientist vs. an optometrist.

What does being an optometrist have to do with anything?

Re:Othello Is Solved by coffee_ on Saturday November 04, 2023 @01:47PM (#38143403)
One solves problems and the other is a computer scientist.
Re:Othello Is Solved by rendall on Saturday November 04, 2023 @02:05PM (#38143594)
Well as a computer scientist and programmer, I for one laughed.
Re:Othello Is Solved by easton on Saturday November 04, 2023 @01:54PM (#38143483)
It’s a joke. As in “CS vs Optometry, who will win in the mancala battle of the century?!”
Re:Othello Is Solved by Keyframe on Saturday November 04, 2023 @05:25PM (#38145282)
Unless it turns out OP is an optometrist
Re:Othello Is Solved by CyberDildonics on Saturday November 04, 2023 @07:38PM (#38146394)
What exactly is the joke?
Re:Othello Is Solved by hombre_fatal on Saturday November 04, 2023 @01:52PM (#38143464)
It’s a lowly profession for those less cunning, scarcely worthy of mention alongside the intellectual ballet that is the domain of software and computers.
Re:Othello Is Solved by libraryatnight on Saturday November 04, 2023 @01:48PM (#38143411)
Wasted his time learning to help people see, now he can't even kick ass at Mancala! The rube!
Re:Othello Is Solved by elwell on Saturday November 04, 2023 @06:03PM (#38145650)
> This was a classic match up

"classic" here is tongue-in-cheek

Re:Othello Is Solved by qubex on Saturday November 04, 2023 @01:58PM (#38143518)
I did something similar for my (then) favourite game Pentago, with similar results: I drained all the fun from it.
Re:Othello Is Solved by jmholla on Saturday November 04, 2023 @02:00PM (#38143547)
This is usually my approach when I'm playing too much of a game. I cracked my sudoku addiction by writing a solver. Got a lot less fun when I could tell my computer to solve it how I would solve it.
Re:Othello Is Solved by dbrueck on Saturday November 04, 2023 @03:05PM (#38144110)
Haha, I did this for Wordle - same result!
Re:Othello Is Solved by marssaxman on Saturday November 04, 2023 @04:01PM (#38144589)
I carefully refrained from building an actual word-ladder solver, for that reason - instead I have a little dictionary-explorer script which will show me the next two layers of the tree, should I get stuck.
Re:Othello Is Solved by bertil on Saturday November 04, 2023 @02:29PM (#38143807)
I remember that game from spending some time in Africa too!

We were there with a couple of smart people, so we started winning against the local kids/ In reaction, they rapidly started “telling us about” rules and exceptions that they forgot to mention earlier. Definitely not making those up. The new rules were not outrageously out of place, but they had a real tendency to turn our previous move into a clearly damaging one.

We started calling those frequent, sudden shifts “African rules.” Kids were not a fan of that expression. Apparently, we were there to make the kids feel great about themselves and help the local authority. We had this belief that winning only occasionally would make their victory sweeter, and learning how to lie to white folks while keeping a straight face seemed to be a key life skill for them.

Goal shifts made the game a lot more interesting, though: could we play in a way that made their rule change predictable so that we could win the meta-game?

I'm not sure how you would be able to program that, presumably with a finite grammar of rules, but it could update the original challenge a bit.

Re:Othello Is Solved by grensley on Saturday November 04, 2023 @04:22PM (#38144753)
I can't remember the source for it (help me out if you know it), but people only like to play games when they're in the band of 30-70% winrate. Win too much or too little, and they'll stop enjoying playing the game.
Re:Othello Is Solved by passion__desire on Saturday November 04, 2023 @06:14PM (#38145728)
If your team always wins, there is no point in supporting it, no thrill. Everything in moderation, even winnings.
Re:Othello Is Solved by sdwr on Saturday November 04, 2023 @08:41PM (#38146793)
Re:Othello Is Solved by rocqua on Sunday November 05, 2023 @02:24AM (#38149070)
Is it really symmetric?

I imagine generally the upper limit on always winning is higher. As in, usually the person consistently losing wants to stop playing before the player consistently winning.

Re:Othello Is Solved by bmacho on Sunday November 05, 2023 @04:06AM (#38149489)
Also if you have time to play multiple rounds, then with a handicap you can set that you both have 50-50% chance to win, thus making the game really good, with adrenaline, the possibility to do your best for an extended period of time, and the reward for that.
Re:Othello Is Solved by jholloway7 on Saturday November 04, 2023 @06:48PM (#38146015)
Now that you mention it, this might be why my family stopped playing Rack-O with me
Re:Othello Is Solved by djak250 on Saturday November 04, 2023 @07:10PM (#38146189)
Sounds like he could "see" when he's been defeated.
Re:Othello Is Solved by password4321 on Saturday November 04, 2023 @08:34PM (#38146741)