It’s that “one simple trick (what they don’t want you to know)” kind of predatory advertising that seems to be what ensnares people.
It’s adjacent to the hustle culture you see on social media where people with gleaming white teeth tell you they’ll make you rich
Consider it a VC investment. First, you gave to either understand the underlying technology, or someone you trust have to understand it sufficiently to be able to say "this is bullshit", or "this is a great novel idea that makes a lot of sense".
Then you invest a bit of your really disposable income in it and don't touch it for a couple of years. Eventually you sell once you're happy with the price, or you forget about it and check few years later.
Edit: also, it really is down to luck too. An idea might be great, but the people behind it can be scammers. Etc. Crypto is(or was) a very high reward, very high risk game.
And for God's sake don't invest your life's savings in crypto!
Arguably the entire monetary system is also kind of like that - but it's got the benefit of true utility outside of speculation. It's a shame that most of the interesting crypto-as-money stuff - smart contracts, accessible to everyone financial APIs, pseudo-anonymous payments etc, has been completely dwarfed by the crypto-as-investment situation. Maybe it'll shake itself out long term, but I suspect the fundamental problems of unregulated "money" will be inescapable.
It turns out there's a reason we have financial regulation.
That's about as big as it gets, and pretty well explains the long legs this con continues to have. A lot of marks out there.
The only thing bigger would be an interstellar "galactic-coin". God. I can only imagine the carnage. Seems like a great premise for a sci fi story.
The ones I think are truly scams are the "stablecoins" and "exchange tokens", which are nothing more than a fiat currency offered by an entity smaller than a government with less accountability than a government, and no way to ensure the value/supply/demand of their coin. So yes, I think FTX was a scam to the extent that they traded FTT while printing or consuming it however they liked.
Also I did put investment in quotes. I don't consider it an investment like stocks of a well established company, but if you put money in a security and you can reasonably expect some return at some risk it is an investment.the main difference is that with gambling you play against "a house". A single entity that controls "the market". With crypto, you can take your security and sell it to anyone, or buy stuff with it.
And no, I haven't robbed anyone, I haven't forced anyone into it to buy at gunpoint. I haven't bought in by using secret knowledge. And If you think crypto is both a gamble and a ponzi I wonder what do you think about forex. If anything that looks a lot more like betting as 99% of forex "brokers" don't actually buy/sell for you, but you bet against them.
On Forex I lost £3500 when the UK brexit referendum went the other way than I predicted. Was I "robbed". No, I made a bad "investing" decision.
Have you never lost at a stock market either?
> Then you invest a bit of your really disposable income in it
Sorry, but I find it a bit funny that in your "winning strategy" you seem to invest on the second step regardless if you in the first step ended in the "this is bullshit" or not. (full disclosure, so far, every crypto thing I have seen has fallen to the "this is bullshit" bucket in my opinion. But I guess my "if it looks, walks and smells like bullshit, don't touch it with a ten foot pole" is not a winnig strategy.)
Perhaps this is my failure to express this clearly, but I thought it obvious you don't invest if you think it's bullshit.
> all crypto is a scam
Most people think SBF spent all his customers' deposits on private jets and luxury condos, and blew the rest on shitcoin bets that went bad.
But despite the insinuations of prosecutors, the PJ trips just don't add up to much in the scheme of things, and the real estate is still there and can be sold.
Yes, some shitcoin bets were bad, but they're offset by investments that paid off like the Anthropic stake.
It's likely that the only haircut depositors will have to take is the billion dollars in bankruptcy lawyer billings.
> the bloody Washington Post told you it's either a Ponzi or a pyramid scheme in 2015
If you put in $10K when WaPo told you it was a Ponzi, you'd have $1.6M today.
Maybe next time the bloody Washington Post gives you investment advice, you should do the opposite.
I did and I had significant losses. What does that say about your statement?
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2015/06/08/bitco...
> The thing is, I don't actually use it. I just hoard it. I'm waiting for some greater fools to push up the price by using theirs.
Holding is about the same thing as buying but with no transaction cost.
This is the fuel that drove crypto. Yes it's a scam; I'm just hoping others will buy in after me and I can cash out with their money.
Obviously there's still investment bubbles - but underlying it all is ownership in a corporation.
Fundamentals define a floor for stock price, but above that it's all vibes. Which is fine, as long as we're on the same page.
On the other hand, buying crypto"currency" becomes ... just that. It sits there until you sell it to someone else.
In other words, if you rolled back all transactions in a stock ever made you'd end up with a positive sum totaling dividends paid out. If you rolled back all Bitcoin transactions you'd end up with a big fat zero. Minus, in both cases, transaction fees but while it's a mere convenience for stocks it's inherent in Bitcoin which makes it a negative sum game and as such a scam.
Yet we didn't conclude only from this all crypto is a ponzi.
That all crypto is a scam clearly comes from the fact it is a negative sum game. When you have a game where you can tell which set of players in total are going to lose and which set of players in total are going to win without knowing the rules of the game -- that's clearly a scam. All you need here is any commodity with baked in transaction fees. The exact same would be true if you traded with plastic poker chips but you needed to pay someone a fee whenever you bought or sold one. Indeed, reviewing the process with such chips makes it more clear, stripped of high tech mumbo jumbo.
Stolfi argues all crypto is a Ponzi because 1) people invest into it because they expect good profits, and 2) that expectation is sustained by such profits being paid to those who choose to cash out. However, 3) there is no external source of revenue for those payoffs. Instead, 4) the payoffs come entirely from new investment money, 5) while the operators take away a portion of this money. Our argument in the previous section was 3-5, you need to add 1 and 2 for it to become a Ponzi. https://ic.unicamp.br/~stolfi/bitcoin/2020-12-31-bitcoin-pon...
> gold has a source of revenue besides the investors; namely, the purchases by consumers like jewelers and industry, who take gold out of the market (2/3 of the production) for uses other than re-sale. When one buys 1 oz of gold, one gets a chip of a metal that one can sell to those consumers, and thus obtain some money that does not come from other investors.
The argument for crypto, etc is the same. There are consumers who want to make purchases, use contracts, etc.
There's a seller for every buyer, and the company does not care about it any more than having happy owners is good.
Investment in the form of bonds is another thing entirely, that's purely capital.
In 1999 Harry Markopolos had informed the SEC Madoff was running a fraud. Yet it took until the 2008 financial crisis for Madoff to be exposed. I am sure you've made quite some money if you invested with him in this time period.
Nevertheless not all cryptocurrencies satisfy the above. The prime example being Ether. In the last year it has experienced -0.186% circulating supply inflation (i.e. it's non-dilutive to its holders) [1]. While the network has captured around USD 6.5M per day ~ 2400M per year in fees due to its usage as settlement layer which are paid to its stakers. Basically, it's cash-flow positive and does not rely on greater fools to sustain its economics.
[1] https://ultrasound.money/ [2] https://charts.coinmetrics.io/crypto-data/?config=JTdCJTIybm...
Additionally, the fees of the network can only be paid in ETH, which means that any use of the network implies ETH demand.
Whether people transacting on the network care strongly about the costs vs alternatives to create a proper link with fiat is not so easy to show because there isn't always a direct 1-to-1 correspondence between services (and there are switching costs, too) - so the "inherently priced in fiat" is tough to show, I think. Also, being priced in fiat might still not create demand for Ether from fiat holders - that comes from outside demand as per the above.
Demand to settle a transaction on the network is demand for ETH. Because the base_fee of a transaction is burnt, destroyed, so ETH needs to be acquired to use it as a settlement layer. Much in the same way to how heating your house with a gas boiler is demand for gas. Similarly, when natural gas prices skyrocket (cue Ukraine invasion), alternative forms of heating start to look more attractive, and consumers may change their behaviors lowering the thermostats. In the case of Ethereum, alternative settlement layers will look more attractive or some users may lower their use. The same mechanisms are in place. I agree though that the relationship is not linear, that's not what I implied. Simply that the revenues of the network are priced in fiat, because the price is set by an auction to include your transaction on the scarce blockspace. And given at least some users will be sensitive to the price of the transaction in USD they will, at the margin, set the prices for a transaction in USD and therefore the fee revenues of the network.
By the way I appreciate you engaging rationally on this topic in HN. Not a common sight when discussing anything related to crypto but much appreciated.
I agree that there can be some link based on the utility of the network and with less of a speculative frenzy it might actually be stronger now. Not dissimilar to (other?) commodities, which have some link to economic activity but are not directly producing the activity themselves (and they can also have speculative phases). And commodities also have conceptual issues around their use in long-term investment for that reason (but at the same time they exist and trade).