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Re:'The early adopters have adopted': US carmakers slow thei... by ivraatiems on Saturday October 28, 2023 @06:18PM (#38053921)
There are so many massive, complex, institutional problems with the auto industry that I am not sure "not as many more people are wanting new EVs as we thought" is the problem the article, and the executives it quotes, think it is. It feels like the industry is blaming consumers for not wanting what they're willing to make and support. It should be other way around.

We don't have a usable national charging network. EVs still don't have the range of gas-powered cars. Many EVs are much more expensive than similar gas-powered cars. Few mechanics and dealers fully understand how to work on EVs. Conspiracy theories are rampant - somebody told me they thought the tires on EVs would give them cancer; another person told me he thought all EVs were just explosions waiting to happen (as though an IC engine is better!).

Chevy recently attempted to discontinue its small, affordable Chevy Bolt in favor of larger, bulkier, more expensive vehicles built on a new platform. It did this during a year where the Bolt sold record numbers and was widely hailed as one of the best and most economical EVs around. The Bolt converted people - myself included - who could not or would not have otherwise bought an EV, and Chevy tried to discontinue it (and later relented and said they'd offer a new version of it in the face of popular demand).

But sure, it's the consumer's fault. How dare people not buy new cars.

Re:'The early adopters have adopted': US carmakers slow thei... by mullingitover on Saturday October 28, 2023 @06:29PM (#38053992)
> We don't have a usable national charging network.

I feel like there's a big lever the federal government has its hands on that would solve this in record time:

Add a substantial gas station tax which is only applied to gas stations with fewer than two level 3 chargers, and watch how fast the national charging network happens.

It doesn't even need to cost the gas station anything. A vendor can foot the bill for installing the chargers and split the profits with the gas station. It would be a boon for gas stations, since EV charging customers are far more likely to generate foot traffic in their stores (where they make the majority of their money) than gas customers who just gas and go.

Re:'The early adopters have adopted': US carmakers slow thei... by geraldwhen on Saturday October 28, 2023 @06:36PM (#38054036)
Where do you live that this seems wise? Gas stations are dangerous, high crime places. One of the perks of an electric car, to me, is never going to a dangerous gas station again.
Re:'The early adopters have adopted': US carmakers slow thei... by psunavy03 on Saturday October 28, 2023 @06:38PM (#38054049)
Uhh . . . where do YOU live that getting mugged at a gas station is something to regularly worry about AND you can afford an EV?
Re:'The early adopters have adopted': US carmakers slow thei... by josephcsible on Saturday October 28, 2023 @07:07PM (#38054318)
Wouldn't San Francisco check both of those boxes? It's easier to afford an EV than to afford to live there, and it has a major crime problem.
Re:'The early adopters have adopted': US carmakers slow thei... by seanmcdirmid on Saturday October 28, 2023 @09:25PM (#38055060)
SF has a major property crime problem, getting mugged (at a gas station or otherwise) is more of a Texas/Deep South problem.
Re:'The early adopters have adopted': US carmakers slow thei... by josephcsible on Sunday October 29, 2023 @01:40AM (#38056052)
But remember that GGP just said "Gas stations are dangerous, high crime places." The word "mugged" came from someone else.
Re:'The early adopters have adopted': US carmakers slow thei... by jandrewrogers on Saturday October 28, 2023 @06:44PM (#38054111)
Where do you live that gas stations are "dangerous, high crime places"? That is extremely abnormal, I don't identify with that at all. Of the hundreds of different gas stations across the country I have frequented in my life, there have only been a couple that might be described as "sketchy".
Re:'The early adopters have adopted': US carmakers slow thei... by ghaff on Saturday October 28, 2023 @06:49PM (#38054155)
There are probably a few parts of a relatively nearby large city where I wouldn't go out of my way to gas up late at night. But I can't personally think of a time when concern for my safety was something I remotely thought about when getting gas.
Re:'The early adopters have adopted': US carmakers slow thei... by TheLoafOfBread on Sunday October 29, 2023 @03:29AM (#38056501)
No worries, it will be easier to get mugged on superchargers.
Re:'The early adopters have adopted': US carmakers slow thei... by darknavi on Saturday October 28, 2023 @06:33PM (#38054023)
Well until recently with the wide-spread adoption of NACS I am not surprised gas stations didn't make the leap.

Now there isn't much of a "technological ambiguity" excuse and they should be able to execute clearly.

Re:'The early adopters have adopted': US carmakers slow thei... by Analemma_ on Saturday October 28, 2023 @06:53PM (#38054200)
I think a more effective lever would be giving owners of apartments and other multi-families properties a property tax rebate if they install level 2 chargers. Particularly in cities, the lack of a place to charge your car in your apartment is a huge impediment to adoption. Property taxes are state revenue, but the Federal government could set up a program that makes states whole if they set up such a scheme.
Re:'The early adopters have adopted': US carmakers slow thei... by AmVess on Saturday October 28, 2023 @07:15PM (#38054368)
More tax is always a dumb, lazy idea. Make EV's more affordable, not ICE cars less affordable.

As it is, half the people with a driver's license in this country cannot afford a base model Honda Civic, much less an EV and its associated charging hardware. Taxing gas will put these people out of personal transportation altogether or make their lives all that much more difficult.

Re:'The early adopters have adopted': US carmakers slow thei... by mullingitover on Sunday October 29, 2023 @02:29AM (#38056255)
> More tax is always a dumb, lazy idea. Make EV's more affordable, not ICE cars less affordable.

The point isn't to raise revenue via tax, it's to incentivise creating a privatized national charging network and make EV ownership feasible. Making them affordable isn't sufficient. Offer the gas stations all the carrots: loans, easy regulations, profits from EV charging revenue. Offer the tax stick to the ones that won't modernize.

Re:'The early adopters have adopted': US carmakers slow thei... by mc32 on Saturday October 28, 2023 @06:41PM (#38054087)
The Bolt was “affordable” because despite government incentives the MFG was losing 9 bills on each one sold.

They won’t “make it up with volume” as the saying goes.

Re:'The early adopters have adopted': US carmakers slow thei... by ivraatiems on Saturday October 28, 2023 @09:16PM (#38055015)
That's not accurate. They were losing about $2,000 on the lowest-tier models. See https://theticker.org/11334/business/general-motors-to-stop-....

Still, to your point, the logical solution there would be to find cheaper ways to manufacture the car people want, not try to demand people buy other cars that are cheaper to make. They weren't even trying to be manipulative about it - they were just like "nope, you can't have this anymore, but please still give us your money."

Re:'The early adopters have adopted': US carmakers slow thei... by mc32 on Saturday October 28, 2023 @09:36PM (#38055106)
Those were the industry estimates of their losses, at launch time; but you’re right, they probably were able to lose less over time. However, they also had recalls which made things worse.

Apparently their new platform is supposed to focus attention on decreasing the price of production so they don’t lose money on every platform vehicle they sell —which quite obviously would not be sustainable.

Re:'The early adopters have adopted': US carmakers slow thei... by Etheryte on Saturday October 28, 2023 @06:44PM (#38054106)
> Conspiracy theories are rampant - somebody told me they thought the tires on EVs would give them cancer

Well I mean, they're not really wrong. Tires release 100 times the amount of volatile organic compounds as a modern tailpipe [0] and those emissions are roughly 20% higher for EVs on average simply because they weigh more. Pollution is strongly linked to numerous types of cancer and tires are a big culprit here.

[0] https://e360.yale.edu/features/tire-pollution-toxic-chemical...

Re:'The early adopters have adopted': US carmakers slow thei... by belltaco on Saturday October 28, 2023 @09:02PM (#38054932)
> Pollution is strongly linked to numerous types of cancer and tires are a big culprit here

Is there a comparison with harmful pollutants from the exhaust including CO, from engine from oil, gas leaks from gas station underground tanks etc. I think an EV comes way ahead.

Re:'The early adopters have adopted': US carmakers slow thei... by ivraatiems on Saturday October 28, 2023 @09:14PM (#38055004)
They were wrong, in that I think they read something similar to what you linked and completely misunderstood what it was saying to mean "the EV engines turn tires into cancer poison," rather than "EVs put more stress on their tires as byproduct of their weight, which in turn can release carcinogens."

The Chevy Bolt weights about 3,600 pounds - while heavy for a vehicle of its size, it is not particularly different from an average "midsize" car weight, at least according to Google. This seems like a red herring to me given how much larger most cars on the road are, at least as far as the Bolt is concerned. Perhaps it is an issue for larger EVs like the Model Y or Mach E.

Re:'The early adopters have adopted': US carmakers slow thei... by Etheryte on Sunday October 29, 2023 @10:20AM (#38058892)
The results vary study to study, but a good ballpark measure is that the average EV is 15% heavier than the average ICE [0]. Other studies I've seen are in the same range, roughly between 15-20%. So if anything, I would call it counterintuitive at best — it's a very real problem, simply the awareness around it is low.

[0] https://www.automotivelogistics.media/insight/you-gotta-carr...

Re:'The early adopters have adopted': US carmakers slow thei... by ragestorm on Sunday October 29, 2023 @02:37PM (#38061323)
But let's compare it to a Ford 250 which is about 2x the weight. I think it's more than lack of awareness, but ignorance. They dont ask why EV = cancer.
Re:'The early adopters have adopted': US carmakers slow thei... by Etheryte on Sunday October 29, 2023 @03:39PM (#38061894)
This is missing the point entirely. Finding one ICE that's heavier than an EV doesn't change the fact that on average, EVs are considerably heavier than ICEs. You can pick individual examples from either set that are light or heavy, but on average EVs weigh more and hence their tires wear more.
Re:'The early adopters have adopted': US carmakers slow thei... by ragestorm on Monday October 30, 2023 @08:44AM (#38068776)
I think we got that point, just kinda focusing on your other since there is an entire fleet of ICE vehicles that are simply unavailable as an EV. My point was its conspiracy, not uninformed simply because they nutjob in the example never mentioned weight, never questioned why, and took EV = cancer as fact. It doesn't matter if EVs weigh 5x more or 5x less.
Re:'The early adopters have adopted': US carmakers slow thei... by mint2 on Saturday October 28, 2023 @06:52PM (#38054186)
I want an EV really badly - just not the current ones. Give me a Subaru crosstrek type vehicle with 400 mi range, I.e a car with 8-9 in ground clearance and 4 wheel drive. If it’s 40-45k that’s okay.

Not sure what the ground clearance will be on the upcoming rugged edition of the smallest Volvo ev crossover, but that could be getting close to my requirements.

Re:'The early adopters have adopted': US carmakers slow thei... by seanmcdirmid on Saturday October 28, 2023 @09:23PM (#38055045)
Isn’t Subaru planning an EV cross trek? There are lots of SUV-style EVs, you have to look harder to find sedans like the Model 3.
Re:'The early adopters have adopted': US carmakers slow thei... by jinushaun on Saturday October 28, 2023 @09:33PM (#38055093)
Subarus have more ground clearance than most SUVs
Re:'The early adopters have adopted': US carmakers slow thei... by mint2 on Sunday October 29, 2023 @08:54PM (#38064464)
They haven’t acted like it. They are discontinuing the plug in crosstrek and their only electric vehicle is a Toyota.
Re:'The early adopters have adopted': US carmakers slow thei... by hansvm on Sunday October 29, 2023 @12:03PM (#38059827)
Usually when I want a car like that I'm about to drive through a small river or something. How well insulated are the batteries in an EV?
Re:'The early adopters have adopted': US carmakers slow thei... by nunez on Monday October 30, 2023 @12:00PM (#38071234)
I'm still pissed about the discontinuation of the Bolt.

I rent Bolts frequently now that Avis carries lots of them. They are amazing cars and LITERALLY EXACTLY what many customers wanting EVs have asked for: cheap, "normal" interior, not slow.

This would be perfect for my wife, who is driving an aging Fusion PHEV (that she loves).

Yes, I can get her a Tesla, but she's expressed reservations and the direction the product is going is not helping (stalkless, missing ultrasonic sensors, screen shift).