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Re:Royal College considers no confidence move after Excel re... by roenxi on Friday October 20, 2023 @06:08AM (#37954241)
> Proposing the motion at this week's meeting, Dr Marks said: "I'm no expert on HR software, but I do know that manually copying and pasting from seven different Excel sheets, all laid out in different ways, is bound to go wrong one day. So who set up the system? Who set up the QA processes and the staff training?"

This sounds pretty standard to me. Spreadsheet stacks are actually effective - and often robust if the Copy Paste technician has a little bit of nous. I don't think it makes sense to get the individual involved in trouble, but it isn't intellectually honest to pretend this is that strange or unreasonable. Offices are full of people who make things work in inefficient ways. Such is life. Improve the system if it fails, but there isn't any call to act surprised that the process is awkward.

I expect there is a lot of politics at play here.

Re:Royal College considers no confidence move after Excel re... by hardlianotion on Friday October 20, 2023 @06:40AM (#37954436)
Excel stacks can be effective, but they need to be setup up correctly and have effective operational control. Royal College have a right to surprise - they are client of ANRO and had to winkle the information out of them. Given the way things turn out, I think Dr Marks comments are also appropriate.
Re:Royal College considers no confidence move after Excel re... by CraigJPerry on Friday October 20, 2023 @06:37AM (#37954420)
>> often robust if the Copy Paste technician has a little bit of nous

This is faulty logic. Human error isn't an exceptional thing, it's extremely common and expected. There's an entire field of study dedicated to it: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_reliability

In many scenarios the right thing to do is just accept the error risk - as humans, we often don't need perfect execution but i don't think this is one of those.

The person quoted in the article gets it right: "We need senior management that know what they're doing, who realize that this is not, and never was, the way to run an HR system"

Re:Royal College considers no confidence move after Excel re... by jjgreen on Friday October 20, 2023 @06:20AM (#37954322)
Copy Paste technician, fabulous, up there with Prompt engineer
Re:Royal College considers no confidence move after Excel re... by TeMPOraL on Friday October 20, 2023 @07:12AM (#37954626)
Well, out of their, say, $50/hr rate, $1 is for the actual labor of copying and pasting, and $49 is for knowing what to copy and where to paste :).
Re:Royal College considers no confidence move after Excel re... by jjgreen on Friday October 20, 2023 @07:44AM (#37954866)
If done by a civil servant (government employee), that would be grade AA (Admin Assistant) or AO (Admin Officer). An AO in London gets £24k/year, which is around £11.50/h, or $14/h

https://www.ons.gov.uk/aboutus/transparencyandgovernance/fre...

Re:Royal College considers no confidence move after Excel re... by HPsquared on Friday October 20, 2023 @07:49AM (#37954897)
That's what they get, but their agency probably bills them out at £50/h
Re:Royal College considers no confidence move after Excel re... by onionisafruit on Friday October 20, 2023 @07:33AM (#37954791)
Is prompt engineer a derogatory term for people who spend their work day at a shell prompt? If so, I can own up to being a prompt engineer. Or maybe it’s an engineer who does their work promptly. In that case, I’m not sure I qualify.
Re:Royal College considers no confidence move after Excel re... by jjgreen on Friday October 20, 2023 @07:51AM (#37954911)
Neither, it's someone who crafts ChatGPT prompts to get the desired output (and that seems to be what they call themselves, so not really derogatory).
Re:Royal College considers no confidence move after Excel re... by mananaysiempre on Friday October 20, 2023 @07:41AM (#37954840)
“Typical process latency: Someone copies and pastes data from a thing into another thing”[1]. Jokes aside, though, I don’t think it’s fair to criticise people for using the only user-accessible interapplication communication channel the industry has universally agreed to make work and not use as lock-in leverage.

The spreadsheets being in different formats and lacking additional sheets that’d automatically reformat the data the way the next step needs is something I’d criticise, but I undertstand how that might be nonobvious if you aren’t lazy enough to think about automating everything you possibly can.

[1] https://xkcd.com/2565/

Re:Royal College considers no confidence move after Excel re... by sheepshear on Friday October 20, 2023 @06:34AM (#37954401)
That's not what they're saying. They're formally accusing management of not doing their jobs.
Re:Royal College considers no confidence move after Excel re... by andrewstuart on Friday October 20, 2023 @06:45AM (#37954466)
No doubt there was never budget for HR software.
Re:Royal College considers no confidence move after Excel re... by codeulike on Friday October 20, 2023 @06:47AM (#37954471)
Spreadsheet stacks are actually effective - and often robust if the Copy Paste technician has a little bit of nous

This is true. Sounds like they have cobbled together a system using Excel because thats why you have to do when processes change all the time.

The alternative is to find a 'proper' HR system to handle all the weird custom processes which is a massive three year project that costs tens of millions and then probably fails to deliver.

IT people complain about people cobbling things together in Excel but in the short and medium term thats usually the only way for people to get shit done

But yes management dropped the ball and should have had some checks and balances. No-one realised that every candidate from Wales got rejected? Thats a clanger.

Re:Royal College considers no confidence move after Excel re... by DharmaPolice on Friday October 20, 2023 @06:56AM (#37954524)
>IT people complain about people cobbling things together in Excel but in the short and medium term thats usually the only way for people to get shit done

This is true, and why I think it's a shame we never got a real replacement for Microsoft Access (not necessarily the functionality of Access but its intended purpose).

Re:Royal College considers no confidence move after Excel re... by pjc50 on Friday October 20, 2023 @07:39AM (#37954827)
If only there was a simple system for producing a database-driven set of screens in a webapp. It's the one thing which seems to have got worse since the eras of dBASE and FoxPro.
Re:Royal College considers no confidence move after Excel re... by DharmaPolice on Friday October 20, 2023 @06:51AM (#37954500)
Having worked with "spreadsheet stacks" for the last two decades I'd argue that although they can be effective in most cases they are error prone which is the point being made in your quote. And they become more error prone the more complex the "system" is and that's bad news because it's oh so easy to add more complexity whenever you want.

I agree the practices described don't sound strange - they sound normal, but so does the resulting errors that occurred - also par for the course.

Re:Royal College considers no confidence move after Excel re... by cool_dude85 on Friday October 20, 2023 @07:03AM (#37954571)
>Spreadsheet stacks are actually effective - and often robust if the Copy Paste technician has a little bit of nous.

I broadly agree with this, but there are ways to make the process effective and ways to make it incredibly error prone, like not having checks to ensure you paste into the correct columns. Obviously there are no such checks here.

Re:Royal College considers no confidence move after Excel re... by pjc50 on Friday October 20, 2023 @07:37AM (#37954813)
Nobody cares about inefficient or brittle process that produce reasonable results, but when you mess up the careers of a number of people, someone's going to take a look at the process.