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Re:Ketamine's effect on depression may hinge on hope by cnity on Friday October 20, 2023 @04:43AM (#37953692)
This system of scientific gatekeeping and law enforcement is a direct projection of the barriers put in place between individuals and god by the catholic church. For millennia authorities have attempted to prevent people from having meaningful spiritual experiences directly, of their own accord, via access to substances that grow e.g. in their nearest cow fields.

In this way, your psychiatrist friend is simply the next iteration of a priest, and the portrayal of her patients as greedy fools only furthers this divide and pushes ever more people towards the other side of the law. I'll see you in _my_ cow field with a woven basket!

_edit_: think of it this way. An internal urge drives people to your friend in search of a meaningful experience. Your friend consults her good book and returns to them with information: no, you cannot have your meaningful experience.

Re:Ketamine's effect on depression may hinge on hope by mnky9800n on Friday October 20, 2023 @05:09AM (#37953872)
Maybe their friend is simply uninterested in having the liability as opposed to some millennia long conspiracy by the Catholic church making her do it.

And anyways, your statements ignore that there's plenty of hippies on Instagram peddling their mushrooms and Ayahuasca in intense spiritual experiences for only 1500$ a pop. Does the Catholic church control them too?

Re:Ketamine's effect on depression may hinge on hope by spicymapotofu on Friday October 20, 2023 @05:36AM (#37954026)
I believe this comment minimized the structure of spiritual experience in a hyperrational way, which is exactly as the GP comment warned against.
Re:Ketamine's effect on depression may hinge on hope by mnky9800n on Friday October 20, 2023 @05:54AM (#37954150)
If your views in having a spiritual experience are exclusive to consuming psychedelic substances then you are minimizing what is available across the human experience in terms of spiritual explorations.
Re:Ketamine's effect on depression may hinge on hope by MadcapJake on Friday October 20, 2023 @01:04PM (#37958690)
"If your views on crossing a river are exclusive to the usage of canoes then you are minimizing what is available across the human experience in terms of river crossings."

Somehow you turned someone's subjective spiritual exploration into them limiting themselves...

Re:Ketamine's effect on depression may hinge on hope by cnity on Friday October 20, 2023 @05:18AM (#37953926)
I believe you have misread my post. Powers that be continue to want me to not have mind altering experiences. I continue to have them anyway. So it goes.
Re:Ketamine's effect on depression may hinge on hope by nottorp on Friday October 20, 2023 @07:06AM (#37954590)
But why call them spiritual experiences when hallucinations will do even better?
Re:Ketamine's effect on depression may hinge on hope by mnky9800n on Friday October 20, 2023 @07:37AM (#37954815)
Potato tomato.
Re:Ketamine's effect on depression may hinge on hope by mistermann on Friday October 20, 2023 @10:53AM (#37956933)
"Do people have ideas or do ideas have people?" might have something to do with the phenomenon of different humans preferring different labels for the same thing.
Re:Ketamine's effect on depression may hinge on hope by PawgerZ on Friday October 20, 2023 @04:01PM (#37960829)
This is from Jung right? I've always been fascinated by his teachings, especially the collective unconscious. I'm just gonna leave a couple related quotes and ideas down here cause I want to.

Dostoevsky made observations like this, too.

"It was not you who ate the idea, but the idea that ate you"

"Men need to bow down to something; whether another man or an idea.”

I think Ernest Becker explored similar ideas in The Denial of Death, though through a different context.

Re:Ketamine's effect on depression may hinge on hope by mistermann on Monday October 23, 2023 @10:35AM (#37986232)
[delayed]
Re:Ketamine's effect on depression may hinge on hope by nottorp on Monday October 23, 2023 @06:55AM (#37983934)
There are different implications though. One implies there's some meaning while the other does not.
Re:Ketamine's effect on depression may hinge on hope by mistermann on Monday October 23, 2023 @10:34AM (#37986200)
[delayed]
Re:Ketamine's effect on depression may hinge on hope by unmole on Friday October 20, 2023 @06:37AM (#37954417)
What drugs are you on?
Re:Ketamine's effect on depression may hinge on hope by dangus on Friday October 20, 2023 @06:40AM (#37954437)
This is ludicrous. The psychiatrist is practicing medicine developed using the scientific method, observed science in trials and studies that is peer-reviewed. That is the furthest thing from what you describe.

The customer is not always right. Just because the customer wants something or believes something doesn’t make it true.

This really isn’t about being a lawful authority trying to buzz-kill society as much as it is about having principles as a doctor.

If I had someone coming into my IT department saying they heard that dipping their laptop in maple syrup would speed up their processor, and to please proceed to dip their computer in maple syrup, my noncompliance doesn’t make me a gatekeeper like the medieval catholic priests.

Re:Ketamine's effect on depression may hinge on hope by cnity on Friday October 20, 2023 @07:36AM (#37954807)
My original post left too much to the imagination and I realise re-reading it that it appears as an attack on professionalism within science, and possibly even an attack specifically on the parent commenter's friend, and I regret that angle.

What I broadly mean is that modern society has done a relatively poor job at helping to produce integrated humans that have the capacity, tools, and know-how to navigate their inner journey. I know this sounds woo to a lot of people here. That the new wave of psychedelic interest is reified as purely medical treatment is a continuation of this trend. That is what I'm trying to articulate.

I have a deep suspicion that you can't simply sterilise the transformation at the heart of these experiences.

Re:Ketamine's effect on depression may hinge on hope by Podgajski on Friday October 20, 2023 @07:20AM (#37954689)
Correct! My schizoaffective disorder bipolar type is actually a spiritual issue at its core.

When people tell me about their psychedelic trips, I am like, so? I’ve been doing it my whole life without drugs!

However, my tendency to go on these trips are highly affected by environmental variables. So the only thing I would add is, it’s a mix between the spiritual and the material And we cannot negate either.

So all these therapist and psychiatrist trying to cure me are taking the wrong tact. What I learned is I needed to understand it, and understanding it alone is the cure.

Re:Ketamine's effect on depression may hinge on hope by jiveturkey42 on Friday October 20, 2023 @08:23AM (#37955134)
Because for every functional self-dosing career professional, there's 10 self-dosing tent dwellers living in squalor in every major US city
Re:Ketamine's effect on depression may hinge on hope by empyrrhicist on Friday October 20, 2023 @08:29AM (#37955182)
Umm... that's much more likely to be opiates and meth, and the criminalization hasn't especially helped with those either.

Not to mention, the language you use is really cruel.

Re:Ketamine's effect on depression may hinge on hope by jiveturkey42 on Friday October 20, 2023 @08:45AM (#37955303)
Likewise I think non-enforcement of drug laws tacitly permitting people to self-destruct in the streets is really cruel
Re:Ketamine's effect on depression may hinge on hope by empyrrhicist on Saturday October 21, 2023 @07:28PM (#37971454)
The question isn't about whether it's good to just let people self destruct, its whether criminalization helps. Not every problem is a police problem.
Re:Ketamine's effect on depression may hinge on hope by marssaxman on Friday October 20, 2023 @12:31PM (#37958269)
You have that ratio backwards, and it's still an exaggeration.
Re:Ketamine's effect on depression may hinge on hope by jiveturkey42 on Friday October 20, 2023 @01:04PM (#37958688)
I didn’t realize the ratio was so high but I guess it would explain why the white collar sector doesn’t accomplish anything anymore
Re:Ketamine's effect on depression may hinge on hope by omginternets on Friday October 20, 2023 @03:11PM (#37960215)
I certainly agree that the failure modes of addiction, homelessness and toxicity are worth avoiding.