News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Starlink Direct to Cell by JumpCrisscross on Wednesday October 11, 2023 @05:18PM (#37850377)
> I won't be renewing my subscription for my InReach Mini forever (although that form factor is pretty nice)

Before getting an InReach, confirm a 406MHz emergency beacon doesn't fit your bill [1][2]. (I have this one [3].)

You can't text a loved one. But with no subscription, a years-long battery and powerful radio that works around the world, you can call emergency services to your precise location.

[1] https://www.sarsat.noaa.gov/emergency-406-beacons/

[2] https://www.rei.com/learn/expert-advice/personal-locator-bea...

[3] https://www.rei.com/product/161982/acr-electronics-resqlink-...

Re:Starlink Direct to Cell by biomcgary on Wednesday October 11, 2023 @05:54PM (#37850735)
My wife hikes in Western Colorado quite a bit and has helped rescue 3 parties over the past 4 years. In one case, a young woman (an ER nurse) was in dire distress for no apparent reason and fading quickly (in retrospect possibly COVID related sequela). Initially, emergency responders were going the route of a land-based rescue, but the Mini allowed the urgency to be communicated more clearly. The helicopter touched down on a scree field (but couldn't land) while my wife and a couple others helped the EMT load her. Docs said that she had less than an hour or so before long-term consequences or death.

Any emergency beacon is better than none, but two-way communication can be a literal lifesaver. I hope that the Starlink system is eventually linked into our 911 infrastructure and available to anyone with an LTE phone regardless of carrier.

Re:Starlink Direct to Cell by zmj on Wednesday October 11, 2023 @06:29PM (#37851165)
Two-way communication is important to prevent false positive emergencies, too. There have been several times I've used my inReach to message that I'm going to miss my planned check-in time, but everything is OK - no need to alert SAR.

Also to communicate on-the-fly decision-making to inform potential SAR - "I'm making good time, going to head up this extra peak before continuing the planned route."

I'm happy to have a cell phone backup to the inReach, but I don't see this Starlink offering as a replacement. That goes double if you're out in winter. Phone batteries aren't great in the cold.

Re:Starlink Direct to Cell by londons_explore on Wednesday October 11, 2023 @06:42PM (#37851309)
Phone batteries are fine down to -20C and usually are functional to about -30C.

You should have no problem with that anywhere in the world as long as you keep it in an inner pocket. Perhaps pack wired earphones just in case you need to make a long call while keeping the phone itself warm.

Notably the battery should not be charged below about 5C. If you do, it will be permanently damaged.

Re:Starlink Direct to Cell by 20after4 on Wednesday October 11, 2023 @08:51PM (#37852245)
> Notably the battery should not be charged below about 5C. If you do, it will be permanently damaged.

This depends on the specific battery chemistry. The BMS should prevent the charging scenarios which would damage the battery. For some it's 0C not 5C. Some can handle charging below 0C.

Re:Starlink Direct to Cell by londons_explore on Thursday October 12, 2023 @03:47AM (#37854521)
I have never seen a phone BMS that prevents charging due to undertemperature
Re:Starlink Direct to Cell by michaelt on Thursday October 12, 2023 @08:24AM (#37856211)
Isn't that a stock feature on pretty much every chip? I mean, if you've got a temperature sensor for overtemperature protection, including undertemperature protection is trivial.

Even the cheapest chips from TI and ST seem to include it. And modern cell phones often advertise extra-fast 20W+ charging, so I doubt they're using the cheapest chips.

Re:Starlink Direct to Cell by s1artibartfast on Thursday October 12, 2023 @12:29PM (#37859415)
I can already imagine freezing to death while my phone refuses to charge because it wants to protect its precious battery
Re:Starlink Direct to Cell by 20after4 on Friday October 13, 2023 @04:13AM (#37868116)
My iPhone refuses to charge when too hot or too cold.
Re:Starlink Direct to Cell by zeagle on Wednesday October 11, 2023 @10:54PM (#37852998)
Respectfully, I don't know about that. I wouldn't trust it if my life was on the line. I go for walks and bike rides when it's -25C to -30C air temperature (before windchill) and I've had old samsung galaxies and newer pixels both crash if I take them out to take a photo. I presumable due to voltage dip.
Re:Starlink Direct to Cell by emilburzo on Thursday October 12, 2023 @01:43AM (#37853804)
This is exactly the reason why I'm sticking with the CAT S6x series phones and willing to put up with mediocre performance/features, as far as smartphones go.

They've been the only ones that don't just turn off in really cold temperatures, even without babying them in warm pockets.

The general ruggedness is also pretty good to amazing, depending on how fragile your previous phones were. For example: it survived a ~10 meter (32ft) drop on rocks, whereas everyone was convinced it was done for.

Re:Starlink Direct to Cell by PawgerZ on Thursday October 12, 2023 @09:32AM (#37856884)
Do you have one of the newer models with the thermal camera? I was very interested in seeing how well that works.
Re:Starlink Direct to Cell by emilburzo on Thursday October 12, 2023 @11:52AM (#37858905)
Yes, currently the S62 Pro. What would you be interested in knowing?

To be honest I first thought it would be a gimmick, but being able to see heat / rough temperature degrees has proven itself quite useful.

But you don't really realize it until you have it available. It's kind of like having another sense available to you.

Random examples of where it was useful:

- finding shitty chargers/electronics which were really hot while doing nothing -> wasted power

- spotting a water leak before it was visible (think cold spot in the middle of the ceiling)

- checking car tire alignment (one side hotter than the other)

- finding buried hot water pipes

- finding where cold air is leaking in during winter

- spotting damp areas

and probably others that I'm forgetting right now

Re:Starlink Direct to Cell by PawgerZ on Friday October 20, 2023 @04:04PM (#37960868)
Thank you for tkaing the time to repsond to me and giving me a good breakdown!
Re:Starlink Direct to Cell by feedsmgmt on Thursday October 12, 2023 @01:54AM (#37853865)
Do people in those areas need phone cases that are insulated to retain heat?
Re:Starlink Direct to Cell by zeagle on Thursday October 12, 2023 @11:56AM (#37858954)
I don't know if those exist. I imagine if you are a linemans or working in the oil field you might have a rugged phone/radio or leave it in the truck cab.
Re:Starlink Direct to Cell by dylan604 on Thursday October 12, 2023 @02:26AM (#37854057)
To someone that lives in a place where we just had an entire summer of 40°C and higher, -25°C sounds like Antarctica, or Mars. And you do that on a bicycle? Clearly, you must be an alien!
Re:Starlink Direct to Cell by pmontra on Thursday October 12, 2023 @04:32AM (#37854778)
Actually, an Italian guy is about to start a bike hike to the South Pole. This is the first link I found to a page in English about it https://aminhacorrida.com/en/omar-di-felice-comes-back-to-at...
Re:Starlink Direct to Cell by zeagle on Thursday October 12, 2023 @11:55AM (#37858947)
Thanks for the laugh. I send my australian friends photos of snowbanks and iced up hair. The hardest part if having a plan if something goes wrong, e.g. I'm not changing a tire or fixing a chain at that temperature. I've been tempted to wait on a bus at a slow train crossing. At least cold I can layer up with and move. I'd die at +40C.
Re:Starlink Direct to Cell by lm28469 on Thursday October 12, 2023 @07:16PM (#37864415)
> -25°C sounds like Antarctica, or Mars

I had that in my hometown in eastern France at 800m altitude, a town a few km away has a record of -41. -15/-20c was almost a yearly occurance when I was a kid

Re:Starlink Direct to Cell by weugek on Friday October 13, 2023 @08:05AM (#37869670)
Yeah having a newer phone helps.

Once I was stuck with a ridesharing car opened and off in -20C because my old samsung s8 throttled so bad I couldn't even reboot it. It was completely unresponive with the flashlight still on discharging it even faster.

I couldn't leave the car too, being responsible for damages during the rent.

After a bit of time I remembered that to force shut down newer androids you have to hold volume down and power. Why would they not keep it as a long press is beyond me.

Re:Starlink Direct to Cell by vxNsr on Wednesday October 11, 2023 @11:13PM (#37853103)
my iphone 6s and 12 pro beg to differ. both saw serious drops in battery in pretty normal 10-15F chicago winters while I was outdoor ice skating or even just going for a long walk with the phone in my pocket.
Re:Starlink Direct to Cell by ejlxsh on Thursday October 12, 2023 @01:31AM (#37853748)
iPhones often turn off around -20c with a warning about temperature, it happens to me every time I travel to Lapland in the Winter.
Re:Starlink Direct to Cell by aembleton on Thursday October 12, 2023 @08:05AM (#37856056)
My last two phones (Xiaomi 9T and Pixel 7) have struggled below about -5C. They still work but the battery drops very quickly so you can't rely upon them. Keeping them in an inner pocket works but I then take them out and see the battery drop. The sudden temperature change might not help there.
Re:Starlink Direct to Cell by RenThraysk on Thursday October 12, 2023 @08:08AM (#37856077)
Samsung Galaxy XCovers have user replaceable batteries, so can atleast keep spare(s) warm.
Re:Starlink Direct to Cell by lxgr on Wednesday October 11, 2023 @08:36PM (#37852145)
> I hope that the Starlink system is eventually linked into our 911 infrastructure and available to anyone with an LTE phone regardless of carrier.

If Starlink's solution is really completely unmodified LTE, I'd expect 911 calls to work regardless of being a T-Mobile subscriber, just like for existing terrestrial networks (where you can dial 911 even if your carrier does not have signal in a given location, or even entirely without a SIM card).

Re:Starlink Direct to Cell by sidewndr46 on Wednesday October 11, 2023 @09:11PM (#37852359)
I don't think LTE can cope with the extreme doppler shift present when the other end is a satellite in LEO
Re:Starlink Direct to Cell by girvo on Wednesday October 11, 2023 @09:19PM (#37852396)
I don't know how much I'm allowed to say, but at least part of what they're doing is normal Cat-1 LTE that any modem that supports it will be able to pick up
Re:Starlink Direct to Cell by ingenium on Thursday October 12, 2023 @12:32AM (#37853508)
How are they accounting for the presumably very high timing advance?
Re:Starlink Direct to Cell by lxgr on Thursday October 12, 2023 @11:50AM (#37858863)
As far as I understand, the timing advance only matters to compensate for differences in distance/latency between different devices (i.e. to avoid uplink transmissions to talk over each other on the same frequency).

The satellites can correct for "global" latency themselves (unless there are higher-level parts of the LTE/E-UTRA radio protocol that can't tolerate such long latencies, e.g. ARQ timers).

For GSM as a half-duplex technology, there's also the matter of devices not being able to transmit and receive at the same time, but I believe the same principle applies: As long as the timing differences between different devices in the same spot beam isn't too large, that's something the satellites could globally correct for.

The same probably applies for doppler corrections.

Re:Starlink Direct to Cell by lxgr on Wednesday October 11, 2023 @09:55PM (#37852619)
The shift is actually not that extreme in LEO (a few KHz at most).

And couldn’t the satellites mostly adjust for that, given that the relative doppler shift should be pretty constant between mobiles in the same spot beam?

Re:Starlink Direct to Cell by sidewndr46 on Thursday October 12, 2023 @09:23AM (#37856806)
LTE can't even handle a high speed train. 1 kHz causes significant degradation

https://eudl.eu/pdf/10.1007/978-3-319-66628-0_41

doppler shift is not a constant for a stationary observer from Earth.

Re:Starlink Direct to Cell by lxgr on Thursday October 12, 2023 @01:32PM (#37860239)
Obviously it's not constant, but if it's uniform (enough) within the footprint of a single spot beam, the satellites can adjust for the global component both in their transmitter and receiver, and the mobile devices only have to compensate for (or tolerate) their local difference from that.
Re:Starlink Direct to Cell by mplewis on Wednesday October 11, 2023 @06:51PM (#37851387)
Something else to keep in mind is that the dedicated PLBs often have 10 times the transmit power as the combo satellite messengers.
Re:Starlink Direct to Cell by yencabulator on Thursday October 12, 2023 @07:21PM (#37864465)
As usual, there's pros and cons, and talking about just one side causes bias. Yes, a PLB can work with more obstructions like trees. However:

With PLB, satellites can't accurately measure where the PLB is; the search and rescue crew will find you by local radio reception.

With a satellite messenger, the gadget knows its own GPS location to a pinpoint and can send that as part of the SOS signal. And you can text the SAR staff and say "I fell and I'm now stuck on a tall ledge halfway up the cliff".

Re:Starlink Direct to Cell by bmelton on Wednesday October 11, 2023 @07:24PM (#37851658)
> you can call emergency services to your precise location.

I guess this is the first time it's occurred to me that hikers and backpackers and such carry them too, which is odd because I hike and backpack.

I picked up the InReach after finding myself 200 miles offshore in a sailboat without an engine or battery power (which meant no VHF or electronic navigation equipment or autopilot or even red/green lights for others to see us at night) nor any way to make power

I assume the 406 Mhz beacon has a range of a few miles?

Re:Starlink Direct to Cell by 0_____0 on Wednesday October 11, 2023 @07:47PM (#37851835)
406MHz I think is referencing PLBs and EPIRBs, which I'm guessing you're familiar with from sailing. The power is high enough that satellites can be used to get gross location, with radio direction finding being used by rescue party
Re:Starlink Direct to Cell by bmelton on Wednesday October 11, 2023 @08:08PM (#37851979)
AHA! Yes, thank you.

Other than the compass (which was only visible in the day time) the EPIRB was the only piece of equipment we assumed to work on the aforementioned voyage. We of course didn't test it as we were able to make it back safely, but I should probably learn more about how it functions.

Re:Starlink Direct to Cell by dylan604 on Thursday October 12, 2023 @02:30AM (#37854078)
with no propulsion, I'm assuming you were just drifting and not really doing to much navigation. just curious if you tried any celestial navigation at night to attempt any sense of direction?
Re:Starlink Direct to Cell by plugin-baby on Thursday October 12, 2023 @02:53AM (#37854215)
if there was wind they may have been sailing.
Re:Starlink Direct to Cell by bmelton on Thursday October 12, 2023 @05:41PM (#37863526)
It was an old race boat, we had ample wind, and the owner casually bragged that he'd replaced the sails with ones that were "about 30% too big for the boat."

We were sailing like demons. One of my biggest regrets of the trip was that we didn't have any wind or speed instrumentation to let us know how fast we were going, but it felt extremely fast.

Re:Starlink Direct to Cell by bmelton on Thursday October 12, 2023 @05:38PM (#37863501)
Yeah. We mostly just picked out a set of stars and kept them roughly to position. Every so often we'd try to illuminate the fixed compass with a phone to ensure that we hadn't wildly drifted from our expected bearing (also, stars move over the course of the night and I have no idea how much)
Re:Starlink Direct to Cell by nullfield on Thursday October 12, 2023 @02:55PM (#37861438)
I’m surprised that things like US military-style tritium-illuminated compasses aren’t more popular or widely used for cases like this.

They’re very safe, last something like 10 years, and aren’t really expensive (compared to “I need to know what direction I’m going and have no way to do so, or can’t see it”).

Re:Starlink Direct to Cell by bmelton on Thursday October 12, 2023 @05:36PM (#37863480)
It would have been a delightful addition and honestly would have kept us much safer. It was fairly easy to keep Orion's belt just port of the mast, but occasionally cloud cover or weather would make that more difficult.
Re:Starlink Direct to Cell by sgtnoodle on Wednesday October 11, 2023 @07:49PM (#37851853)
Re: range, it's still satallite based. It's purely for emergencies, though, rather than for convenience.
Re:Starlink Direct to Cell by bmelton on Wednesday October 11, 2023 @09:36PM (#37852490)
Thank you
Re:Starlink Direct to Cell by runlevel1 on Wednesday October 11, 2023 @09:02PM (#37852309)
That sounds like a hell of a story. How did you find yourself in that situation? And how did you get out of it?
Re:Starlink Direct to Cell by reaperman on Wednesday October 11, 2023 @09:29PM (#37852443)
If it were me, I’d assume backup paper navigation charts and either a handheld battery powered backup GPS or my smartphone that has an app to parse data from the GPS chip. Could use primarily dead reckoning plus turn the phone on every couple hours to update true location. Most sailors are using paper charts for tricky sections anyways — you just normally have a constant GPS location provided by your navigation system.

There are also lots of established shipping lanes you could find that would be relatively densely traveled and give you periodic feedback for which direction to go. A bit more dangerous due to collisions without lights but as long as your retroreflector is hoisted, big ships should see you clearly on radar. plus you’ll generally be swapping sleep shifts and always have someone manning the helm on the sailboat, though seeing large vessels at night can be somewhat more difficult.

Re:Starlink Direct to Cell by bmelton on Wednesday October 11, 2023 @09:44PM (#37852542)
Mostly all that's right. We had three phones and a few battery packs (tho we'd exhausted them more quickly than expected and lost one to rain) because the paper charts aboard were from the late 80s when the boat was built and were all for the Pacific ocean it was built to sail.

The only other complicating factor was that due to the August Florida heat, nobody really had the luxury of sleep for the first couple of days.

Re:Starlink Direct to Cell by closewith on Thursday October 12, 2023 @08:36AM (#37856325)
> Most sailors are using paper charts for tricky sections anyways — you just normally have a constant GPS location provided by your navigation system.

My experience in Marine SAR is that this is no longer true. Apps like Navionics, SeaPilot, etc - often without any backup at all - are by far the most common form of navigation.

Re:Starlink Direct to Cell by bmelton on Thursday October 12, 2023 @05:42PM (#37863542)
Yeah. I've spent a lot of time learning charts and a terribly small amount of time actually using them. In this case, we didn't have the right ones anyway.
Re:Starlink Direct to Cell by bmelton on Wednesday October 11, 2023 @09:35PM (#37852486)
Offered to help the owner (a friend of a friend of a friend) of an older racing sailboat move his boat from Florida to Maryland. It was planned to be us and 4-5 other crew, but (red flag the first) ended up being only me, my wife, and the owner.

There were lots of red flags before finding ourselves in squarely over our heads -- an overheating motor was explained away as having had an undersized thermostat installed. Plausible enough. The lack of a bimini in August in Florida was just forgotten, but led to pretty significant overheating to me. The autopilot not working we didn't realize until about 15 miles offshore. That the autopilot was draining all the other batteries we didn't realize until we lost navigation lights. Etc. Etc.

This was embarrassingly recent, but suffice to say a LOT of lessons were learned. The boat was foreign enough that I accepted too many "explanations" as comfort when they should have been a reason to abort. Failures compounded and voila, we're now 15 hours away from civilization flying a spinnaker through thunderstorms at night and positively hauling ass.

Eventually we got the owner to appreciate our discomfort enough and how over our heads we were to head to safety in Charleston (he'd still just been heading east, which was baffling -- but apparently it is not everyone's first instinct to go to safety when life-threatening failures crop up) but that brought its own perils -- coming into a crowded channel at night without navigation lights isn't advised. We were shining a flashlight onto the sails, but the flashlight would change modes if it wasn't held steadily enough. One of the storms we'd sailed through had killed the owner's phone as well as his phone charger, so the little bits of navigation we had were precious, but necessary coming into shallower coastal waters. A cargo ship coming out of harbor kicked us out of the channel just enough that we ended up grounded and stuck pretty squarely about a half mile away from restaurants, but late enough on a Sunday that there wasn't any other traffic we could hail down. (A radio would have been lovely in that case)

I was sunburnt and heat-stroked enough that despite guzzling water constantly, I hadn't urinated in 24 hours, and though we were in relative calm, the totality of circumstances, I used the last of the dwindling battery on the last usable phone among us to call the coast guard for evacuation. The owner of the boat stayed behind.

To paraphrase Cheryl Strayed -- If you'd asked me at any point in the journey, I was absolutely miserable, but on the whole it was miraculous. Gained a ton of skills. Learned a ton of red flags to look out for. Experienced a lot of firsts, not the least of which included a crash course in celestial navigation. And being 200 miles offshore and awake the whole night during the Perseid meteor shower was absolutely brilliant.

Re:Starlink Direct to Cell by runlevel1 on Wednesday October 11, 2023 @11:03PM (#37853050)
Yep, that sounds like a wild ride!

I'm glad you lived to tell the tale, stranger.

Re:Starlink Direct to Cell by bmelton on Wednesday October 11, 2023 @11:27PM (#37853179)
Thank you. I also am.

Honestly glad my wife was aboard as it lowered my risk threshold enough to get me to want to abort.

Re:Starlink Direct to Cell by cdchn on Wednesday October 11, 2023 @11:24PM (#37853157)
What happened to the owner? Some say he is still there with his doomed boat to this day...
Re:Starlink Direct to Cell by bmelton on Thursday October 12, 2023 @05:45PM (#37863573)
lmao -- we checked on him the next morning. He didn't answer my call, but that made sense as his phone had died, so we drove by where it had been stranded and it wasn't there so he'd moved. Felt guilty that we couldn't get in touch with him to offer him a ride back in our rental car, but caught up with him a few weeks later and he managed to get the boat into a slip somewhere down there.
Re:Starlink Direct to Cell by bigiain on Thursday October 12, 2023 @12:27AM (#37853488)
"If you'd asked me at any point in the journey, I was absolutely miserable, but on the whole it was miraculous. Gained a ton of skills."

Sounds a lot like ocean racing sailboats under normal circumstances.

I quit ocean racing (after about 5 seasons) when I had a sudden realisation that the only part that was any fun in the last 3 days was sitting in the bar after it was over and talking about it. And there were ten times as many non-crew people there enjoying that with us as there were crew on the boat I raced on.

Re:Starlink Direct to Cell by airbreather on Thursday October 12, 2023 @10:23AM (#37857593)
I quit when I realized I despised the cold so much that if I fell in I would probably give up after 5 minutes.