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Re:When 80 percent of US generals go to work for arms makers by psunavy03 on Saturday October 07, 2023 @10:11PM (#37807265)
This is like complaining that someone like Vint Cerf or Guido von Rossum isn't quitting technology to go to law school. When you have 30-40 years of experience up to literally the executive or C-suite level in a field, your best bet in your 50s is to stay in that field. And for General Officers or Flag Officers, that field is the defense sector.

Sure, it's always needed to have ethics safeguards when people involved in contracting switch jobs, but domain expertise is a thing that's valued. And as much as it's an uncomfortable truth for some people on the internet, working in defense is not a dishonorable career. And while corruption in the so-called "military-industrial complex" exists, based on my 20 years in uniform, I'm not sure it's worse than in other sectors of the economy.

Re:When 80 percent of US generals go to work for arms makers by ajcp on Saturday October 07, 2023 @10:30PM (#37807381)
Don't you think we should hold any economic activity that impacts those working in the service of the public interest/their elected representatives to a higher standard than "other sectors of the economy"?

Public servants/members of the military not only pledge to avoid conflicts of interest, but the appearance of them as well. Shouldn't we hold economic activity that services those interests to that same standard?

Re:When 80 percent of US generals go to work for arms makers by gruez on Saturday October 07, 2023 @10:49PM (#37807478)
>Public servants/members of the military not only pledge to avoid conflicts of interest, but the appearance of them as well. Shouldn't we hold economic activity that services those interests to that same standard?

But are we willing to pay for it? Government jobs already pay pretty poorly compared to the private sector. Slapping the equivalent of a non-compete onto them isn't going to make them more appealing. You might have gotten rid of all the corruption, but you also ensured that the government will be staffed by monkeys.

Re:When 80 percent of US generals go to work for arms makers by Eddy_Viscosity2 on Sunday October 08, 2023 @08:17AM (#37809810)
Military members, government employees, and defense contractors all receive their money from the same source - the defense budget. The government is already paying people super high salaries, just indirectly through a layer of contracts. So its not about the money.
Re:When 80 percent of US generals go to work for arms makers by ajcp on Sunday October 08, 2023 @10:08AM (#37810571)
Yes, and it's imperative that we do.

Even then an O-9/O-10 gets $17,675.10 a month[0] in base pay and $3,963 a month[1] in *tax exempt*[2] housing allowance for the DC metro area. That's $259,657.20 a year in salary. While maybe not high by C-suite or Silicone Valley standards, that ain't bad at all.

0. https://militarypay.defense.gov/Portals/3/Documents/2023%20B... 1. https://veteran.com/bah-rates-state/district-of-columbia-dc/ 2. https://militarypay.defense.gov/Pay/Tax-Information/Exempt/

Re:When 80 percent of US generals go to work for arms makers by gruez on Sunday October 08, 2023 @10:15AM (#37810629)
What does O-9/O-10 correspond to in terms of rank, and what does that correspond to in the private sector? If that's equivalent to VP/c-suite at a large company, then $260k is pretty low.
Re:When 80 percent of US generals go to work for arms makers by psunavy03 on Sunday October 08, 2023 @01:06PM (#37812313)
O-9s are Vice Admirals/Lieutenant Generals. Three-star officers. O-10s are full Admirals and Generals. Chairmen of the Joint Chiefs, service heads, combatant commanders.

O-10s are almost all direct reports of the Secretary of Defense and skip-level reports of the President. Many O-9s are direct reports of an O-10 and skip-level reports of the Secretary of Defense.

Re:When 80 percent of US generals go to work for arms makers by ajcp on Sunday October 08, 2023 @02:57PM (#37813361)
3 and 4 star generals/admirals. These would be C-suite executives and LoB level VPs in the private sector. Yes, compared to their private sector counter-parts $260,000 is low, and they also can only get compensated in pay; there is no equity , stock, or bonus options.
Re:When 80 percent of US generals go to work for arms makers by Enginerrrd on Sunday October 08, 2023 @01:10PM (#37812359)
It's not so obvious I think. Since you mentioned one extreme, lets look at both: staffed by monkeys, or staffed by psychopaths who might prioritize personal gain over American interests. That's not a recipe for a clear winner if we're eliminating nuance.
Re:When 80 percent of US generals go to work for arms makers by femiagbabiaka on Saturday October 07, 2023 @10:29PM (#37807373)
The FY2024 Pentagon budget is 842 billion dollars.

The Pentagon cannot pass an audit of its budget to save its life, it's the status quo: https://www.thefiscaltimes.com/2019/11/20/Pentagon-Fails-Aud....

The Pentagon makes tens of trillions of dollars of accounting adjustments each year because its internal financial controls are basically non existent.

If the Pentagon was a publicly traded company, Matt Levine would be writing about it as an exemplar of fraud every week and its shareholders would be suing.

You're underplaying the corruption by an order of magnitude at least.

Re:When 80 percent of US generals go to work for arms makers by gruez on Saturday October 07, 2023 @10:42PM (#37807447)
>The Pentagon cannot pass an audit of its budget to save its life, it's the status quo: https://www.thefiscaltimes.com/2019/11/20/Pentagon-Fails-Aud....

That's not what the link claims though.

>The fiscal 2019 audit examined more than $2.9 trillion in assets and $2.8 trillion in liabilities, the Pentagon said. The process involved about 1,400 auditors conducting 600 site visits, at a cost of nearly $1 billion.

Sounds like they can't keep track of all the stuff they supposedly own (ie. "assets"). That's slightly different than its yearly budget simply disappearing. Even if this year they tracked down where every cent went, they'd still fail the audit, because they can't account for the stuff they purchased years ago.

Re:When 80 percent of US generals go to work for arms makers by femiagbabiaka on Saturday October 07, 2023 @11:38PM (#37807681)
Granted. But it’s a difference without a distinction. The budget does disappear: into assets and liabilities that are poorly accounted for.
Re:When 80 percent of US generals go to work for arms makers by naveen99 on Sunday October 08, 2023 @08:13AM (#37809789)
It still shows up in inflation and interest rates. It’s the same with the national debt. The difference between 24 trillion and 25 trillion is basically just inflation and interest rates.
Re:When 80 percent of US generals go to work for arms makers by KptMarchewa on Saturday October 07, 2023 @11:37PM (#37807679)
The "military audit" is a red herring. No one wants secret programs to be auditable.
Re:When 80 percent of US generals go to work for arms makers by femiagbabiaka on Sunday October 08, 2023 @12:04AM (#37807790)
I think we have more options than an unaccountable Pentagon with a revolving door to the Acela corridor or leaking state secrets.
Re:When 80 percent of US generals go to work for arms makers by clintonb on Saturday October 07, 2023 @10:15PM (#37807288)
> And while corruption in the so-called "military-industrial complex" exists, based on my 20 years in uniform, I'm not sure it's worse than in other sectors of the economy.

Your response to the corruption is whataboutism? Should we aim to end corruption regardless of what happens in other sectors?

Re:When 80 percent of US generals go to work for arms makers by psunavy03 on Saturday October 07, 2023 @10:28PM (#37807362)
Of course we should. But I'm not convinced barring four-stars from going to work with Raytheon or Lockheed Martin is the way to do it. First off, defense contracting is run through the services, not the combatant commands, so there's 11 four-star officers off the bat who aren't making contracting decisions compared to six who are. Remember, military services man, train, and equip the Joint Force. Combatant Commanders employ the Joint Force. The service heads have no command authority in the field. They are merely force providers to the Combatant Commanders.

What's more, funding allocations to the services start with what's called the Defense Planning Guidance, which is a document issued by the Office of the (civilian) Secretary of Defense. This is then broken down into Service Program Guidance about where each military service spends its money. Services then come up with a Program Objective Memorandum outlining the budget they need, which then goes to the Joint Staff, because the Joint Staff's job is refereeing interservice food fights. This then goes to the (civilian) Presidential administration, who presents a budget to Congress, who approves it.

So there are many cooks in this budgetary kitchen, and if Congress doesn't like the military Congress funded and approved for the President to use, then perhaps Congress can look itself in the face and ask itself why it's not fulfilling its duties under Article I of the United States Constitution, instead of trying to pass the buck onto the President's subordinate officers, when it's ultimately Congress who controls the purse strings.

I keep saying "Congress" for a reason . . .

Re:When 80 percent of US generals go to work for arms makers by mattmcknight on Saturday October 07, 2023 @10:40PM (#37807432)
Yes, but ending the ability of government employees who are forced to retire to seek employment in their field of expertise is not a good solution to corruption.
Re:When 80 percent of US generals go to work for arms makers by nononoenono on Saturday October 07, 2023 @10:23PM (#37807327)
a more appropriate interpretation (according to the site guidelines) is that the poster was implying corruption in the us economy is very low and that military corruption, being no worse, is also very low.

aiming to eliminate corruptoin is a bit pie in the sky.

Re:When 80 percent of US generals go to work for arms makers by psunavy03 on Saturday October 07, 2023 @10:30PM (#37807378)
Exactly this. If the Fat Leonard fiasco had been a "dog bites man" story, it wouldn't have been such a scandal.

Again, looking back on a 20-year active and reserve career in uniform, my personal opinion is that a lot of the waste and inefficiency in DOD is precisely because of all the ethics rules. Not that I don't approve of ethics rules, but there are times it seems the hoops you have to jump through to spend government money are based on the assumption that A) everything has to be above board and B) all contractors involved are inherently a bunch of flim-flam artists who will fleece the government given half a chance.

And this is precisely why the Pentagon bureaucracy is so infamous, and why companies want to hire retired Generals and Admirals to help them navigate it.

Re:When 80 percent of US generals go to work for arms makers by giraffe_lady on Saturday October 07, 2023 @10:38PM (#37807416)
> working in defense is not a dishonorable career

Yes it absolutely is. Obviously people who choose to do it don't find that to be the case, but there's no reason we have to agree with them.

Re:When 80 percent of US generals go to work for arms makers by ipaddr on Saturday October 07, 2023 @10:42PM (#37807446)
A country without a military isn't a country for very long
Re:When 80 percent of US generals go to work for arms makers by giraffe_lady on Saturday October 07, 2023 @10:47PM (#37807464)
We're not talking about "a country without a military." We're talking about the american war machine, possibly the greatest engine of destruction and misery the world has ever known.

If the US can't exist without the atrocities it has been using its military to commit for the last century then sure, it should not exist. I suspect there are other paths, however.

Re:When 80 percent of US generals go to work for arms makers by KptMarchewa on Saturday October 07, 2023 @11:36PM (#37807674)
US military is the best thing that have happened to the world, and is one of the main reasons for the decades of general peace and prosperity that happened since WW2 globally.
Re:When 80 percent of US generals go to work for arms makers by p1esk on Saturday October 07, 2023 @11:01PM (#37807530)
And what do you think will happen in the world without US? China and Russia would love that.
Re:When 80 percent of US generals go to work for arms makers by hfuyf65 on Saturday October 07, 2023 @10:51PM (#37807486)
Could you elaborate? I disagree just because of the basic human nature, but I am curious about your rationale for the statement above.
Re:When 80 percent of US generals go to work for arms makers by giraffe_lady on Saturday October 07, 2023 @10:53PM (#37807493)
I'm talking specific to the US military and its uses and transgressions, not condemning everyone who has ever fought a war in history. Nothing in "basic human nature" made us do agent orange or abu ghraib. We chose this course and we must unchoose it.
Re:When 80 percent of US generals go to work for arms makers by latency-guy2 on Saturday October 07, 2023 @11:22PM (#37807625)
Ah, so it absolutely is not, since it is relative.

Be thankful that you are not in charge of a country where hard decisions get made, and each decision costs lives no matter what you do.

I would not trust you.

Re:When 80 percent of US generals go to work for arms makers by civilitty on Saturday October 07, 2023 @10:48PM (#37807470)
What domain expertise? They’re experts at navigating politics at that level more than anything else. The vast majority of these people are taking board seats. They don’t even work for the companies full time, let alone apply any of their expertise to AI companies and experimental drone platforms.

They’re there for connections.

Re:When 80 percent of US generals go to work for arms makers by thrill on Saturday October 07, 2023 @10:55PM (#37807501)
What do you think the most valuable board members of a large company tend to be well versed in?
Re:When 80 percent of US generals go to work for arms makers by psunavy03 on Saturday October 07, 2023 @11:51PM (#37807738)
Are you telling me that people who worked their way up from entry-level to executive and C-suite positions don't have any domain expertise beyond "playing politics?"

Every general and flag officer started out as a junior officer or junior enlisted servicemember. There is literally no other way to get there. There are no lateral hires into the military; it's "up or out."

Re:When 80 percent of US generals go to work for arms makers by someguydave on Sunday October 08, 2023 @12:09AM (#37807799)
Sure but it has likely been decades since they practiced their speciality. If lockheed were hiring these generals for their technical expertise why put them on the board of directors?
Re:When 80 percent of US generals go to work for arms makers by psunavy03 on Sunday October 08, 2023 @05:56PM (#37814756)
This is like claiming a law firm's named partners haven't practiced law in decades.
Re:When 80 percent of US generals go to work for arms makers by someguydave on Tuesday October 10, 2023 @04:35PM (#37837121)
Law firms and the military hierarchy are not comparable.
Re:When 80 percent of US generals go to work for arms makers by civilitty on Sunday October 08, 2023 @12:12AM (#37807812)
I’m saying it’d be a lot more plausible an argument if they actually went into roles where some other domain expertise applied. Board members is not one of those roles, especially when they’re joining the boards of companies working on cutting edge tech like AI and drone platforms.

Most of these generals also went through the military academies, not ROTC or some other pipeline. They had to convince a member of Congress to recommend them, so yes navigating politics plays heavily into their career from day one.

Plenty of other career officers go into consulting or actual leadership roles but the generals named in the article are bought off with these board seats to use their influence over military decision makers, not some other nebulous expertise.

Re:When 80 percent of US generals go to work for arms makers by anonyme-honteux on Saturday October 07, 2023 @10:59PM (#37807521)
War is too serious a matter to be left to the generals. An absolutely oversized military industrial complex is indeed problematic if a country wants to be a full democracy. It's not the only reason obviously, but according to the economist democracy index, the USA ranks as "flawed democracy", #30 in the world, which is better than Slovenia and Botsnawa but far from the countries from Scandinavia.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Economist_Democracy_Index

Re:When 80 percent of US generals go to work for arms makers by psunavy03 on Saturday October 07, 2023 @11:02PM (#37807537)
And you're basing this on your how many years in uniform, or how many years in civilian government service? Why should you have any credibility?

The US has many flaws, but the idea that one poll determines what is or isn't a "full democracy" is frankly childish. As is pulling out snarky Clemenceau quotes when the US already has full civilian control over the military.

Re:When 80 percent of US generals go to work for arms makers by Manuel_D on Saturday October 07, 2023 @11:10PM (#37807575)
The main reason The Economist ranked down the US was the electral college, and gerrymandering. Not it's military industrial complex or revolving door between politics and industry.
Re:When 80 percent of US generals go to work for arms makers by rewmie on Sunday October 08, 2023 @03:26AM (#37808548)
> War is too serious a matter to be left to the generals. An absolutely oversized military industrial complex is indeed problematic if a country wants to be a full democracy.

I think that the US armed forces have a far wider set of responsibilities than "war". For example, they act as a social protection service for its members, and weapons program are managed as part of economic policies as job guarantee programmes.

Then there are research programs who started out as military projects which ended up benefitting the whole mankind, such as the internet or GPS.

This takes place in a country whose society has been almost rabidly opposed to any policy remotely associated with socialism. It's almost a cheat code of sorts.

In pragmatic terms, criticising the US armed forces just because "war" seems ignorant and foolish.

Re:When 80 percent of US generals go to work for arms makers by Eddy_Viscosity2 on Sunday October 08, 2023 @08:22AM (#37809845)
The US military, in a sense then, is actually a fully self-contained centrally managed economy and state. Funny how 'communism' can be both the ultimate evil AND the structural model needed for efficient running of such a large organization like the military.
Re:When 80 percent of US generals go to work for arms makers by rewmie on Sunday October 08, 2023 @08:55AM (#37810037)
> Funny how 'communism' can be both the ultimate evil (...)

I don't think you fully understand the issue you're trying to comment on. Not only is conflating a military organization with communism beyond wrong, but you're also completely oblivious to very basic aspects of human nature that are key to living fulfilling lives such as human rights and individual freedom.

Re:When 80 percent of US generals go to work for arms makers by Eddy_Viscosity2 on Sunday October 08, 2023 @09:21AM (#37810207)
I'm not oblivious to any of those things. But the parallels still seem to exist; both communism and the military are centrally managed, rigidly hierarchical, demand loyalty, punish dissent, and both place the goals of the organization above the freedom of the individual.
Re:When 80 percent of US generals go to work for arms makers by rewmie on Sunday October 08, 2023 @10:21AM (#37810684)
> I'm not oblivious to any of those things.

I don't think so. The definition of communism is not a organization with a hierarchical structure. You even fail to touch the central traits of communism. You're simply trying to forcefully conflate two separate concepts while ignoring it's primary traits.

In short, gibberish.

Re:When 80 percent of US generals go to work for arms makers by Eddy_Viscosity2 on Sunday October 08, 2023 @11:38AM (#37811412)
Communism as applied in practice, specifically the former soviet union, very much had a hierarchy.

The primary traits of interest I listed in the previous comment. Are they exactly the same? of course not. But that doesn't mean they can't share similarities.

Re:When 80 percent of US generals go to work for arms makers by rewmie on Sunday October 08, 2023 @11:42AM (#37811456)
> Communism as applied in practice, specifically the former soviet union, very much had a hierarchy.

I'm not convinced you realize that the definition of communism is not "a hierarchical organization".

I don't see the point of continuing this discussion. Even your basic assumptions are fundamentally wrong.

Re:When 80 percent of US generals go to work for arms makers by Eddy_Viscosity2 on Sunday October 08, 2023 @12:09PM (#37811702)
Did read the 'as applied in practice' part and then think I was talking about the idealized dictionary definition? Because that's weird if you did.
Re:When 80 percent of US generals go to work for arms makers by thoughtofone on Saturday October 07, 2023 @11:16PM (#37807598)
Floating without a command is uncommon even post- Department Head (which nobody wants to do).

Otherwise sometimes partisan, but topical; Ctrl-F "lobby"; 2 year waiting period for lawmakers; "End Washington Corruption": https://elizabethwarren.com/plans/end-washington-corruption

Lord of War: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lord_of_War

Tropic Thunder: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tropic_Thunder

Barry on HBO: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barry_(TV_series)

Jack Ryan on Amazon Prime: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_Ryan_(TV_series)

Re:When 80 percent of US generals go to work for arms makers by psunavy03 on Saturday October 07, 2023 @11:24PM (#37807636)
. . . are you seriously responding to a post about actual DOD contracting by referencing a fictional Hollywood movie, a satirical fictional Hollywood movie, an HBO series, and a Tom Clancy character?
Re:When 80 percent of US generals go to work for arms makers by Nullabillity on Sunday October 08, 2023 @12:02AM (#37807782)
> And as much as it's an uncomfortable truth for some people on the internet, working in defense is not a dishonorable career.

[citation needed]

> based on my 20 years in uniform

Ah. Could have lead with that conflict of interest up front.

Re:When 80 percent of US generals go to work for arms makers by latency-guy2 on Sunday October 08, 2023 @01:15AM (#37808035)
Have you thought about the idea that you are some people on the internet?
Re:When 80 percent of US generals go to work for arms makers by Nullabillity on Sunday October 08, 2023 @01:21PM (#37812468)
Sorry, lamp-shading is not an argument.
Re:When 80 percent of US generals go to work for arms makers by rewmie on Sunday October 08, 2023 @03:13AM (#37808499)
> [citation needed]

That's not how it works. You don't get to pull out of your ass that a random career is dishonorable and pretend that it's everyone else's responsibility to fix your unsubstantiated accusation.

Either you have a valid reason to argue that a career is dishonorable, or you should just stay quiet.

Re:When 80 percent of US generals go to work for arms makers by Nullabillity on Sunday October 08, 2023 @01:20PM (#37812457)
> That's not how it works. You don't get to pull out of your ass that a random career is dishonorable and pretend that it's everyone else's responsibility to fix your unsubstantiated accusation.

You find it strange to consider murderers and torturers to be dishonorable?

Re:When 80 percent of US generals go to work for arms makers by appplication on Monday October 09, 2023 @01:00AM (#37817053)
> And while corruption in the so-called "military-industrial complex" exists, based on my 20 years in uniform, I'm not sure it's worse than in other sectors of the economy.

The issue with defense contracting is not corruption, but the fact that it can feel like a trap for a lot of transitioning vets. For every general that retires there’s 1000+ mid level officers and enlisted not knowing what else to do with themselves. And after 6-20 years in service joining a defense company because they were under equipped to and unprepared to transition from military duty to a fully civilian position.