This applies to the context of west vs China. Everything China does is because of oppression and everything the west does is because of democracy and protecting you.

There's a fair bit of nuance in this topic, but it can be argued that a totalitarian regime whose primary interest is remaining in power will resort to more oppressive measures towards its citizens than one that at least has some semblance of respecting human rights and democratic processes. This doesn't mean that there aren't things to praise and criticize about both sides, but _overall_ one system of government is demonstrably more benevolent, to its own citizens, at least.

What I'm really tired of, though, is everytime there's news about something worth criticizing about China, these comparisons with the West are mentioned. It only serves to muddle the conversation, which can be seen as the intent of whoever brings it up.

We should be an absolute beacon of morality and principles with a stellar track record to criticise (or even, instill change through violence in) in other countries. That is not the case yet, so let's work on that.

I completely disagree. We can have many problems but when another country, say, invades another one, we should respond appropriately. Waiting until everybody becomes crystal will never work because it's never going to happen.

> (or even, instill change through violence in)

This is a completely different issue, and it is always wrong, no matter who does it, whether it's CIA in South America or Putin's agents in Ukraine. I haven't seen a single case where "instilling change through violence" brought any benefit, but I saw several cases where it completely ruined whole countries, see the so-called Arab spring.

The American Revolution? The Civil War?

They do this because this is the most efficient strategy that works every time - not just in Internet discussions but also in political debate. Look what happens whenever any of atrocities committed by Russia hits the news again - you can be 100% sure that one of the first comments will be something about the USA bombing Sarayevo or Syria etc. Some of these accusations do make sense (like the invasion of Iraq on false premises), some don't (like in Yugoslavia where NATO pretty much stopped the war and "ethnic cleansing" i.e. mass murder). But it doesn't matter: the person who threw the bait have successfully managed to deter the conversation away from the problematic issue and made it someone else's problem.

It's stunning to see how many so-called liberals nowadays have little in common with the liberals of the 2000s, sometimes even the complete opposite. I recall standing against censorship, governmental abuse, american imperialism, and many other values to be firmly entrenched in the liberal camp when I was coming-of-age politically speaking back in the US.

This fact is ignored, overlooked, or pooh-poohed by those whose ambitions for society requires a large state.

To maximize human freedom, there's an optimal balance to be struck between a stateless society and one that'll prosecute you as you described. I think the optimum is far toward the "free" end of the spectrum.

> With enough money you can buy all the others

is particularly easily falsifiable. A billionaire in China does not have freedom of speech and cannot buy it.

Our billionaire Chinese friend can escape to the free world, or buy political influence at home.

Or what is your point here?

That with enough money, all of the other needs can be fulfilled one way or another?

Unless you threaten the authoritarian leader via, for example, having too much money or saying negative things. Where, for example, is Jack Ma? He used to be very focal and visible until his disappearance, but nowadays he is allegedly peacefully enjoying his retirement with painting. According to Alibaba co-founder Joe Tsai, Jack Ma "is fine. He is lying low right now. I talk to him every day. I actually message him, we have our own messaging platform. He is actually doing very very well. He's taken up painting as a hobby. It's actually pretty good. I can show you some photos later." [1]

I still haven't seen any interviews with Jack Ma since his dissapearance where is he is not surrounded by multiple guys in black suits.

[1] https://youtu.be/KveMLJNhwkc?si=dGJbujD-57FlHpNP

Those in China who have power and criticize the PRC are swiftly punished for it and stripped of that power. I know "freedom of speech" is a term that's been significantly watered down in common parlance, but this is the poster child of not having it.

[0] https://www.cnn.com/2023/07/12/business/china-jack-ma-wealth...

McCarthyism? The entire Twitter Files exposé? Arrests over social media arguments (I'm recalling cases particularly in the UK).

Both in the US and in Western Europe there's been a frightening and ever faster decay of freedom of speech over the past years.

I'm going to assume you are arguing in good faith, but FYI such "whataboutisms" are the go to defence of bad faith actors when any criticism of China is brought up.

That didn’t work for Jack Ma.

While he was still living in China.

Maybe a case of high INT stat, but low WIS?

probably because they enjoy the prison food in the free world. check what happened to Guo Wengui.

> or buy political influence at home.

Jack Ma and Hui Ka Yan won't agree with your comments above.

This is probably easier for a Chinese millionaire that a Chinese billionaire.

If any of the Chinese big tech guys moved to Australia I imagine it cause a bit of a scandal.

And the scandal would be “Nobody has had any news from <tech guy> for the past ten days, suspicions of forced disappearance creates diplomatic tensions between Australia and China” or something like that.

Money isn't yours if you can't spend or move it.

You don't have the state looking after the wellfares of individuals, you are on your own all the time. $0 handouts during covid pandemic is the best example. You don't have unions stopping businesses and asking better pay & less working hours for its members.

Talking about communism, the US is getting there fast. Look at its current union movement, with both 2024 US presidential election candidates openly supporting those unions, man, it is communism, it is cancer.

wait a second. unions in the US are weak? what a huge joke! UAW stopped the production of US made cars, asking 40% wage increase. Yet that is weak?

let me tell you what is "weak" unions - in China, which implements state capitalism, unions represent the interests of the management & business owners, not workers & union members. Permanent contract is pretty much unheard of for labour workers, you won't get paid for working over time, 4 days per week communist style working hours is like 100 years away, you'd be luck if you don't need to work 7 days a week. you still pay your union fees, but you won't get anything from them, strike gets you into jail and your union bosses are going to kick your ass even before the arrival of police.

you got brainwashed by your "free" media. you've never ever experienced the brutal state capitalism, as you live in your lovely western communist society.

here in Shanghai, the economic capital of this state capitalist country called China -

* you don't get treated for medical conditions if you don't pay all those treatments in advance. pay your bill late kind of communist arrangement doesn't exist here.

* if you are a labour worker, you need to save like 500 years worth of your before tax income to buy a shitty & tiny apartment, that is right, you need to be start saving money before the independence of the communist US.

* can't afford to buy? no worries, just rent, 3 months rent plus 1 month bond and 1 month rent equivalent agent fee is the typical condition here. factor in the cost to move, you pretty much need 6 months rent worth of money to afford to rent.

* social housing you ask - people are going to laugh at you, that hasn't been invented yet. the state is the biggest land owner, residential land is auction to developers to build residential properties, why would any sane people working for the state to build social housing to undermine one of the largest income streams of the state?

* can't afford to rent and there is no social housing? well, homeless is not an option as that deteriorate the quality of investment environment of your city. you will be dealt with like a piece of trash.

angry about all these? well, they promote a few poster boys every year who managed to rise from the very bottom, they tell you something you probably heard it many times already - it is all about personal choices.

There are facts you just can't deny at all -

* far less income inequality in the US. A US software engineer working for Google/Apple/Amazon probably makes 3-5x more than a typical unskilled US worker, in China, a Chinese software engineer working for Alibaba/Tencent/Huawei can easily make 30-50x wage of a typical unskilled Chinese worker.

* no union movements in China, they even banned The Internationale. the US is seeing wide spread strikes in many key sectors. this is eye opening for many Chinese.

* no covid handouts in China, you are always on your own. numerous communist style handouts in the US during covid, that caused extremely high inflation and the current demand for wage increases & strikes.

* free COVID-19 medicine in the US, full price out of your own pocket here in China. I paid two packs of Paxlovid back in Feb, cost me $600 USD and it was like winning the lottery to be able to buy them online, I had to try multiple time a day for two weeks, it sold out within seconds each time.

* far more social welfares in the US, tons of real public hospitals & social housing. here in China, if you don't have enough money, you won't get shocked by your medical bill because you will never be tested or treated in the first place. you are always on your own. by the US standard, there is 0 public hospital in China, no hospital is fully or even half government funded, all those so called Chinese public hospitals have to source their fundings on their own.

I’m not trying to downplay how things are in China by any means, and I believe that the “brainwashing” accusation wasn’t merited. It’s a “elephant vs dog vs ant” situation.

We are talking about an economy that didn't allow people to freely trade salt less than 10 years ago.

Granted. I don't know of any remotely reasonable (non-politicized) comparable study of economic freedom in China; my assessment is from talking to people (expats, entrepreneurs etc.) and just looking at what was going on.

I remember sitting at a restaurant in a small village and watching a local drone company doing testing on the parking lot. 4 engineers and a drone the size of a small car.

Just no way that would be allowed in anywhere in Europe.

Around here, setting up a sausage stand requires special approval from the Prime Minister of the People's Republic of China. That is the exact special & emergency arrangement they put forward during COVID - people were allowed to setup such stands in selected areas during weekends to boost economy during COVID.

Their (stupid) logic is simple - such stands / street food vendors degrade the overall investment potentials, as no one wants their multi billion investment project to be surrounded by thousands of street food vendors.

welcome to state capitalism.

To list a few examples - urban property cannot be owned outright by any non-state entity, Chinese citizens are heavily restricted from investing overseas, and foreign investment/media consumption is also limited.

While I am sure real property ownership is weaker in china, The propaganda is I assume based on a exaggerated version of the truth. I also have never seen a public works project held up so dramatically by a single reluctant owner. Usually the government will claim eminent domain and poof, there go all your so called real property ownership rights, up in smoke.

For example instead of buying a house in China, people obtain residential land use rights from the local authority for a period of up to 70 years [1]. AFAIK this translates to a 70 year leasehold contract in British, which isn't that much. It's very possible, in theory, to 'purchase' a house in China and have be unable to live in it within your lifetime.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Property_law_in_China

China is in position 154 https://www.heritage.org/index/ranking

"Oh but China, oh but Europe, oh blah blah blah" try actually establishing a company on the lower bottoms of the rank

Using the Heritage Foundation's ranking is quite misleading.

there was no "as simple as you say"

Coming at it from another direction, I'd say that government guarantees of freedom are essentially non-fungible assets that resist the ability for lopsided/captured/coercive markets to financially strip them.

And where in the world do you think this would not be the case? (except maybe in 3rd world countries with bribable authorities)

(such a fine of 100k is probably on the higher end for most places though)

So in Sweden a very realistic scenario in this case is that this guy goes to prison for half a year. During that time the tax authority decides he owes 100000 USD in taxes, and 100000 USD in "extra taxes". Whether he has the money or not is irrelevant. If it's more than he made, that's irrelevant. And the interest on those 200000 USD is 18.75%.

Also, you can't declare personal bankruptcy in Sweden, so this guy is essentially turned into a slave of the government: whatever money he makes is taken from him, except for a very small amount necessary to "exist". If he is a good slave for five years, his debts can be discharged. If not, then he's stuck in this situation forever. It's game over, economically.

Also, Sweden probably has a more efficient "bailiff authority" (Kronofogdemyndigheten) than most countries. So game over really is game over. They will come to your home, with the police if necessary, and take everything of value there.

This might be a bit of silly question: but if someone were to “stand their ground” and try to defend themselves (with weapons they somehow obtained / 3D-printed / etc.) I imagine the Swedish authorities also wouldn’t hesitate in gunning that person down, right?

This especially bites you in the states with mandatory universal health insurance scheme. The payment is based on your income in a given month/year - e.g. 30%. If you can't pay, your problem... Then, since you're in debt, they are not paying for your treatment. And there is no way to get out-of-the-system private health insurance, it simply doesn't exist. Hospitals have to treat you but the full price of treatment is added to your debt, no discounts are possible. People from the US never realize there are dark parts of the universal healthcare systems too. At least you can bankrupt out of your hospital debt in the US.

This is the reason why people just don't start business here. As an employee you're "safe" - the employer deducts your insurance payment from your wage and that's it, you're not investing into anything, not planning any cashflow.

I think their point is precisely that this Chinese case might be more similar rather than different to the rest of the world.

> (such a fine of 100k is probably on the higher end for most places though)

In neither the Chinese case nor on the Swedish case does it seem to be a fine. It's rather a confiscation of illegal earnings, which is then followed by an actual fine.

I used to have my life in serious disorder and they confiscated the owed tax three times from me. Never got fined more than $100, though I had to call and apologize the second and third time to have it reduced from ~$500.

But the higher fines/criminal charge are usually for very, very egregious failures to pay

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Censorship_of_GitHub

He has the option. I'm not sure if he did it though.

The problem here is it was confiscated arbitrarily, it's not tax authority doing all that.