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Re:iPhone 15 Teardown Reveals Software Lockdown by dannyw on Tuesday September 26, 2023 @02:00AM (#37655026)
I think parts blacklisting (i.e. you report a phone as stolen, all of its OEM parts are blacklisted) is good as an anti-theft measure and achieves the same functionality.

I can also understand parts pairing for Face ID for security, and maybe even the battery. I've had aftermarket battery repairs swell up, which is a safety risk.

But what Apple is doing is using this as a pretense to lock down repairs.

Re:iPhone 15 Teardown Reveals Software Lockdown by ricw on Tuesday September 26, 2023 @02:37AM (#37655256)
Same applies to cameras, microphones, touchscreen, screen, buttons, or really any other sensor or chip etc that is powered and can therefore have a sneaky transmitter inserted. I don’t want someone (nsa cough) being able to sneak in their own module to follow my every whereabouts.

Yes please. Check every item for authenticity. That’s why I’m an Apple customer. I’d buy android if it weren’t the case.

Re:iPhone 15 Teardown Reveals Software Lockdown by PeterStuer on Tuesday September 26, 2023 @02:39AM (#37655278)
NSA would not have to sneak in anything. They can just order Apple to do it and they would be prohibited from ever talking about it.
Re:iPhone 15 Teardown Reveals Software Lockdown by flangola7 on Tuesday September 26, 2023 @02:42AM (#37655299)
Do we have any evidence of that occurring practice? I've heard the theory but never seen the proof
Re:iPhone 15 Teardown Reveals Software Lockdown by PeterStuer on Tuesday September 26, 2023 @02:49AM (#37655366)
I think the US made it very clear what will happen to you if you provide proof. Better prepare for a Snowden life in the best case. If you are less lucky you might end up Assange.
Re:iPhone 15 Teardown Reveals Software Lockdown by flangola7 on Tuesday September 26, 2023 @10:31AM (#37659941)
We're living in age where military base layouts are leaked by fitness trackers. Top secret battle maps leak onto Discord video game channels. Not even as an act of spying, just by accident or carelessness. I just cannot accept that any truly massive secrets could be kept sealed for long. It's the same reason the Area 51 conspiracies are bunk.
Re:iPhone 15 Teardown Reveals Software Lockdown by friendzis on Tuesday September 26, 2023 @02:57AM (#37655435)
How do you expect evidence to be presented when even acknowledging existence of such possibility is highly illegal? Garry Webb suicided with two gunshot wounds to the head.
Re:iPhone 15 Teardown Reveals Software Lockdown by mavhc on Tuesday September 26, 2023 @03:22AM (#37655654)
As a warning to others that the CIA will only let you live 8 years after allowing you to publish "the truth"?
Re:iPhone 15 Teardown Reveals Software Lockdown by johnnyworker on Tuesday September 26, 2023 @05:46AM (#37656835)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gary_Webb

> "If we had met five years ago, you wouldn't have found a more staunch defender of the newspaper industry than me ... And then I wrote some stories that made me realize how sadly misplaced my bliss had been. The reason I'd enjoyed such smooth sailing for so long hadn't been, as I'd assumed, because I was careful and diligent and good at my job ... The truth was that, in all those years, I hadn't written anything important enough to suppress."

[..]

> Webb's ex-wife, Susan Bell, told reporters that she believed Webb had died by suicide. "The way he was acting it would be hard for me to believe it was anything but suicide," she said. According to Bell, Webb had been unhappy for some time over his inability to get a job at another major newspaper. He had sold his house the week before his death because he was unable to afford the mortgage.

So he was killed indirectly; not a distinction I personally care about. Unless you are investigating state crimes yourself, I wouldn't throw popcorn from the cheap seats.

Re:iPhone 15 Teardown Reveals Software Lockdown by salawat on Tuesday September 26, 2023 @02:50AM (#37655386)
...What part of Secret Compartmentalized Information don't you understand?
Re:iPhone 15 Teardown Reveals Software Lockdown by flangola7 on Tuesday September 26, 2023 @10:32AM (#37659953)
Like the Ukraine battle maps that get posted to Discord?
Re:iPhone 15 Teardown Reveals Software Lockdown by kahnclusions on Tuesday September 26, 2023 @04:19AM (#37656100)
It’s difficult to provide proof when the act of doing so is either illegal, or gets you targeted by a major nation state. We may never get proof. We may only get proof decades after the fact when it becomes irrelevant.

In cases like this we have to weigh the likelihood and risk regardless, and proactively protect ourselves.

Re:iPhone 15 Teardown Reveals Software Lockdown by renegat0x0 on Tuesday September 26, 2023 @02:50AM (#37655377)
So many data is in the cloud that it is even not important if NSA has access to your phone.
Re:iPhone 15 Teardown Reveals Software Lockdown by fsh on Tuesday September 26, 2023 @02:43AM (#37655308)
If the NSA wanted access to your phone, they would ask Apple to push a backdoored update. No need for a James Bond level evil maid attack.
Re:iPhone 15 Teardown Reveals Software Lockdown by atraac on Tuesday September 26, 2023 @02:48AM (#37655355)
They don't need to ask for any backdoor, there are existing solutions already like Pegasus. It was recently used by Polish government ruling party to spy on opposition under the pretense of looking for 'Russian spies'. Considering our not-very-smart government managed to get it, I can bet people who are actually qualified can do much more already.
Re:iPhone 15 Teardown Reveals Software Lockdown by Thorrez on Tuesday September 26, 2023 @02:50AM (#37655378)
Didn't the FBI ask Apple to do that already and Apple refused?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple%E2%80%93FBI_encryption_d...

Re:iPhone 15 Teardown Reveals Software Lockdown by ChrisRR on Tuesday September 26, 2023 @04:02AM (#37655979)
Well those are the ones we hear about. I think there's a lot of state-level spying in many software and hardware devices, but of course we don't hear about it
Re:iPhone 15 Teardown Reveals Software Lockdown by Thorrez on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @01:30AM (#37670582)
Sure there's a lot of state-level spying. NSO Group et al. That doesn't mean Apple is complicit.
Re:iPhone 15 Teardown Reveals Software Lockdown by mavhc on Tuesday September 26, 2023 @03:22AM (#37655664)
No need to ask, just get a job at Apple, same as every major company
Re:iPhone 15 Teardown Reveals Software Lockdown by mr_tombuben on Tuesday September 26, 2023 @02:45AM (#37655330)
NSA will order Apple to pair that part if they decide to swap it and you wouldn't be able to do anything about it.

If instead of VIN-locking they just notified you a differenr part was swapped out, you could go get some part from a trustworthy third party and replace that potentially back-doored part yourself.

Re:iPhone 15 Teardown Reveals Software Lockdown by ClumsyPilot on Tuesday September 26, 2023 @03:43AM (#37655828)
Imagining that a company that relies of US government for protection of it's IP and profits will protect you from US gobernment has to be the peak of naivite
Re:iPhone 15 Teardown Reveals Software Lockdown by ChrisRR on Tuesday September 26, 2023 @03:58AM (#37655947)
As an electronic engineer I can't even begin to explain how difficult it would be electronically to include a "sneaky transmitter" in a single component

It's way more likely that the NSA would say "hey apple, install this backdoor in your software but don't tell anyone about it"

Re:iPhone 15 Teardown Reveals Software Lockdown by FloatArtifact on Tuesday September 26, 2023 @08:23AM (#37658230)
Why not unlock your phone into some sort of repair mode through an Apple account?

Protects your integrity of the hardware but gives you the choice to repair.

Re:iPhone 15 Teardown Reveals Software Lockdown by jjcon on Tuesday September 26, 2023 @02:33AM (#37655225)
A lot of it is brand protection to be honest. I’ve seen so many cheap “refurbished” iPhones in the past with absolutely terrible cheap parts put in them. For end users this is most immediately apparent when the screens are 3rd party (terrible color, irregular backlighting etc) but these days it is a lot harder to use 3rd party parts.

I think there is an argument to be made that these protections preserve the used Apple market because people can actually trust it for the most part (we certainly see that reflected in the prices). I imagine the lifespan of an iPhone is much longer than a comparable (by footprint) android device.

I’m my mind right to repair trumps all these upsides but it isn’t as clean as it always seems imo.

Re:iPhone 15 Teardown Reveals Software Lockdown by Gigachad on Tuesday September 26, 2023 @02:45AM (#37655326)
Providing the user with more information is fine and not anti repair imo. If the user boots the phone and sees a bunch of non-genuine warnings, they can know to steer clear of buying the device.

The larger issue seems to be where there is calibration info that needs to be set up but only Apple has the software and tools for it.

Re:iPhone 15 Teardown Reveals Software Lockdown by bzzzt on Tuesday September 26, 2023 @09:10AM (#37658770)
"Providing the user with more information is fine and not anti repair imo. If the user boots the phone and sees a bunch of non-genuine warnings, they can know to steer clear of buying the device."

You're assuming a technical, informed and assertive user here. There are lots of people who don't even try to turn off and on the phone when buying. Or fall for bullshit like 'it's normal, just ignore that message'. And what do you do when some repairman used a knockoff battery and is threatening with calling the police if you don't accept and pay for the 'repaired' phone?

Re:iPhone 15 Teardown Reveals Software Lockdown by jjcon on Tuesday September 26, 2023 @01:33PM (#37662849)
Agreed - I actually think that would solve a lot of this.

Apple could put in as many oem checks as they want, hell, even throw a persistent warning in the settings menu or something to inform and even dissuade but they should absolutely allow it at the end of the day.

Re:iPhone 15 Teardown Reveals Software Lockdown by fsh on Tuesday September 26, 2023 @02:46AM (#37655332)
Nokia solved this problem two decades ago by putting holograms on their batteries.
Re:iPhone 15 Teardown Reveals Software Lockdown by HWR_14 on Tuesday September 26, 2023 @06:04AM (#37656983)
Because when people buy a used iPhone it is reasonable for them to open up the phone and check all the parts for holograms?
Re:iPhone 15 Teardown Reveals Software Lockdown by fps-hero on Tuesday September 26, 2023 @06:38AM (#37657274)
I bought a fake Nokia back in the day (18 years ago). The thing which gave away it was fake was the atrocious battery life (2ish run time hours), and otherwise clunky software. I can assure you faking a hologram was absolutely not problem.
Re:iPhone 15 Teardown Reveals Software Lockdown by ClumsyPilot on Tuesday September 26, 2023 @03:35AM (#37655759)
Maybe actually selling genuine parts for repair would be better brand protection.
Re:iPhone 15 Teardown Reveals Software Lockdown by jiofj on Tuesday September 26, 2023 @04:22AM (#37656120)
That's what they already do, but the genuine OLED ceramic screen can't compete in price with some crappy LCD screen with regular glass that shows ripples when you push it with your finger.
Re:iPhone 15 Teardown Reveals Software Lockdown by ClumsyPilot on Tuesday September 26, 2023 @04:34AM (#37656210)
You can't buy a replacement USB port if the one in the phone breaks. You can't buy a replacement charging chip, RAM chip, etc.
Re:iPhone 15 Teardown Reveals Software Lockdown by PawgerZ on Tuesday September 26, 2023 @01:24PM (#37662705)
That's what they already do? Can you point me to where I can buy these parts?
Re:iPhone 15 Teardown Reveals Software Lockdown by FloatArtifact on Tuesday September 26, 2023 @08:20AM (#37658186)
Well what choice do is anyone have when you can't get official parts for refurbishing?
Re:iPhone 15 Teardown Reveals Software Lockdown by asddubs on Tuesday September 26, 2023 @02:30AM (#37655201)
I suppose the awkward part of blacklisting is that if a phone isn't immediately reported, someone may sell a stolen part to a repair business, which installs it, and then a week later the customers phone is locked down, through no fault of either the person who had their phone repaired or the repair shop
Re:iPhone 15 Teardown Reveals Software Lockdown by Dylan16807 on Tuesday September 26, 2023 @02:39AM (#37655279)
That's a situation where some kind of delay could handle it. They don't need to reuse those parts instantly. I doubt the fraction of people that report a theft after months have gone by is very big.
Re:iPhone 15 Teardown Reveals Software Lockdown by rekoil on Tuesday September 26, 2023 @02:36AM (#37655245)
A repair business doing that wouldn't be in business for long though.

There are APIs available for verifying whether FindMy is disabled for the device in question, that might be a better proof that the device is honestly sold to a repair shop for parts.

For devices broken enough that they don't turn on there needs to be a way to remove them from FindMy without using the device though... is removing them from the list available at https://appleid.apple.com enough?

Re:iPhone 15 Teardown Reveals Software Lockdown by AussieWog93 on Tuesday September 26, 2023 @02:33AM (#37655226)
The customer then kicks up a fuss, the repairman realises that the part came from a stolen phone and the supplier of these parts is either reported or blacklisted by the repairman and every other repairman they know.
Re:iPhone 15 Teardown Reveals Software Lockdown by Gigachad on Tuesday September 26, 2023 @02:46AM (#37655333)
They would be blacklisted by default when attached to an icloud account and then the user can release the parts by unlinking the device.
Re:iPhone 15 Teardown Reveals Software Lockdown by friendzis on Tuesday September 26, 2023 @02:50AM (#37655383)
> I can also understand parts pairing for Face ID for security

Can someone elaborate on why parts pairing is needed for biometrics?

In my understanding the biometrics module can simply send raw "image" data to the CPU which then performs validation/authentication. Hardware authentication seems to be only necessary if one plans to send some precomputed data.

But I don't understand the very reason behind that. To save power you don't want to run biometrics recognition all the time anyway. If the recognition task is so computationally taxing that even the very powerful CPU present in smartphone cannot provide required hard real time guarantees and therefore an ASIC/FPGA/DSP is needed, well... Apple makes custom hardware anyway, so there is no apparent penalty in embedding biometrics accelerator right into the CPU anyway.

Re:iPhone 15 Teardown Reveals Software Lockdown by wilg on Tuesday September 26, 2023 @02:54AM (#37655417)
Biometrics need to be evaluated on a separate computer for security reasons. Sending them to the main CPU is a non-starter.

When you do this, the parts must be securely linked otherwise you can swap the biometric system with one that is already unlocked.

And, they want to ensure the Face ID dot projection and image captures come from a real camera and projector system, not some device that spoofs them. And in reverse, to prevent intercepting and capturing biometric data.

Re:iPhone 15 Teardown Reveals Software Lockdown by friendzis on Tuesday September 26, 2023 @03:16AM (#37655606)
> Biometrics need to be evaluated on a separate computer for security reasons.

But why? What's the algorithm/architecture here? I am genuinely curios here.

I guess we can generalize finger/face readers as multichannel cameras. What do you gain by computing a "hash" of the data (and the associated machinery to send that hash securely) versus simply sending raw data for evaluation at CPU level? In the end the CPU has to trust the data sent by peripheral anyway.

I understand the use of separate compute unit when extraction of secrets must be protected, but in this case it is the CPU that protects those secrets anyway.

Re:iPhone 15 Teardown Reveals Software Lockdown by justincormack on Tuesday September 26, 2023 @04:09AM (#37656029)
The validation is done outside the CPU I believe too, that’s certainly what happens with the fingerprint reader. I think the process is documented in the secure enclave white paper
Re:iPhone 15 Teardown Reveals Software Lockdown by yennies on Tuesday September 26, 2023 @04:42AM (#37656278)
>otherwise you can swap the biometric system with one that is already unlocked.

But isn't the data on the device actually encrypted with the bio key?

So swapping out new bio data => new key => can't decrypt original data.

Or do you mean it just means you get a working device (but all stored data is lost)?

Re:iPhone 15 Teardown Reveals Software Lockdown by wilg on Tuesday September 26, 2023 @02:52AM (#37655399)
Blacklisting is much less secure because there is a lag between theft and protection and more intrusive because it requires online activation.

Parts pairing seems like a good solution if theft for components is a major issue.

Re:iPhone 15 Teardown Reveals Software Lockdown by TonyTrapp on Tuesday September 26, 2023 @04:24AM (#37656137)
> I've had aftermarket battery repairs swell up, which is a safety risk.

I've had the original, built-in-from-factory battery of a Google Pixel phone swell up. Assuming that this only happens with third-party batteries is something laptop and smartphone manufacturers try to brainwash us into thinking. Buy your third-party battery from a reputable company (not a random seller on Alibaba) and the risk will be the same as buying one from the original device manufacturer.

Re:iPhone 15 Teardown Reveals Software Lockdown by Tijdreiziger on Tuesday September 26, 2023 @01:11PM (#37662496)
When you take your phone to a repair shop, you don’t know if the battery they installed is from a reputable manufacturer or a random Alibaba seller.
Re:iPhone 15 Teardown Reveals Software Lockdown by TonyTrapp on Tuesday September 26, 2023 @03:13PM (#37664413)
You can always ask. That being said, a good shop will probably not risk its reputation by installing garbage components.
Re:iPhone 15 Teardown Reveals Software Lockdown by Tijdreiziger on Tuesday September 26, 2023 @06:33PM (#37666703)
Around here most of the third-party repair shops feel pretty sketchy.
Re:iPhone 15 Teardown Reveals Software Lockdown by benterix on Tuesday September 26, 2023 @05:24AM (#37656619)
> I've had aftermarket battery repairs swell up, which is a safety risk.

My friends at support had to deals with dozens of original Apple batteries that swelled up. And, contrary to what people may think, Apple doesn't consider a swollen battery a safety issue.[0] But, for certain models, they would replace it at no fee (although such support programs have ended IIRC).

[0] See e.g. here: https://discussions.apple.com/thread/251466658

Re:iPhone 15 Teardown Reveals Software Lockdown by HWR_14 on Tuesday September 26, 2023 @06:07AM (#37656999)
They don't consider all swollen batteries to be safety issues. Clearly, what that page is referring to is that a specific product line was having batteries swell up for non-safety reasons. They still got replaced, but it makes sense if Apple knows the cause and it's not safety related.