The key overall is always to not abuse and that should be adressed by education, not just mindlessly prohibit everything (even tho it's not too bad to forbid stuff somethimes).
Who is to say what's "abuse" really.
Why would taking MDMA in a therapist chair be "medicine" and taking it and dancing all night long be "abuse"? Because that's how they're going to try and control it. I'm not even sure which would be healthier for you or more effective. Like, obviously there's a point where it's too much, but if you let the "medical establishment" define it, it'll definitely be defined as any point in which people might actually be having fun.
I've known people who did it nearly daily for long stretches, and others who would only take it once a month and take Prozac after to mitigate and potential damage. I'm not saying that the latter is the only non-abusive way of taking it, but clearly the former would constitute abuse.
I think it's critical that all of us (however we feel about the 'morality' of doing drugs) have the humility to acknowledge that there isn't any policy "solution" to these problems. These are humanity problems (really, animal problems, since any animal can experience addiction and chemical dependence).
It is arguably deeply unfair to prohibit people from experiencing the best that these substances have to offer (and I don't just mean in a therapy setting). But it's also dangerous to "let" them get in over their heads. Unfortunately though, the verb "let" is doing a lot of work in that sentence. Even well-meaning and trusted parents aren't able to effectively guarantee their children's safety (either with prohibition or with a more lenient, discussion-based strategy). How much less effective then, is a government which isn't and can't ever be completely trusted by its citizens? No matter what, we won't 'solve' this with some perfect policy.
_Almost everyone_ who uses recreational drugs or drinks stops drinking or doing drugs _on their own_ without any intervention. There's this idea that's been propagated that drugs are this evil demon that you can never shake once you get addicted, because for people who deal with drug addicts professionally, _all they ever see_ are people who haven't quit drugs almost by definition. However, those drug addicts are a _small_ percentage of all the people who have used drugs.
https://www.drugfoundation.org.nz/matters-of-substance/archi...
Drug policy is basically based on the survivorship bias fallacy.
In other worlds, well-adjusted people with support networks rarely "get addicted" to drugs (as if they are some sort of cursed potion that anyone who consumes is afflicted).
General rule of thumb is to not even do it more than 1x-2x a year. Even then most people say that it doesn't feel as good over time.
When your brain becomes dependent on a drug that fries your brain temporarily with serotonin you will not feel as good without the drug. Doesn't sound like a fun time to me.
https://dancesafe.org/drug-information/is-mdma-neurotoxic/#1
Bizarre we have gotten to the point where the default is "take powerful drug because no scientist has proven not to in a century long twin study!!"
Long term abuse to the point that "users don't ever feel the same without it" is quite concerning and very problematic, but once or twice seems fine, despite the absence of "a century long twin study".
Because this is such an incredible oversimplification of what goes on in the brain. SSRIs also dramatically increase the overall serotonin flux, to the point where if you quit suddenly, the brain is left in a deficit, the effects of which can be quite unpleasant. And contrary to the "serotonin is happy chemical, more serotonin = more better" myth, the net result of all this serotonin is that 5-HT receptors actually downregulate. Ultimately, the result of all these changes is an increase in neuroplasticity.
Blasting 5-HT receptors (eg by LSD, psilocin, etc, and to an extent MDMA) is also shown to increase neuroplasticity.
Neurotoxicity and psychopharmacology are extremely complicated. It's beyond reductionist to say "drug floods brain ergo bad".
[1] Hatzidimitriou, McCann, and Ricaurte, “Altered serotonin innervation patterns in the forebrain of monkeys treated with MDMA seven years previously: Factors influencing abnormal recovery”, The Journal of Neuroscience, June 15, 1999, 19(12):5096-5107. Abstract.
The same Ricaurte that 'accidentally' gave excessive methamphetamine to monkeys intsead of MDMA. The same study.
I recommended nothing, and I didn't say there were no negative side effects. See HN guidelines please.
And no there's plenty of anecdotal evidence from long term users who never feel the same after frequent use, even after stopping. But again by your logical reasoning because there's no peer reviewed study on humans that sufficiently backs this up people should ignore that.
> And no there's plenty of anecdotal evidence from long term users who never feel the same after frequent use, even after stopping.
People who use one drug often use others, and often concurrently. We use science to disentangle these confounders like this.
I have no problem with people advising caution in using powerful drugs, and advising against them fully if they have a family history of mental health issues. I do have a problem when people try to use flawed science to give this caution a false sense of authority.
Aging is a thing. Most adults don’t “feel the same” after the passage of a “long term” span of time, regardless of their level of substance use.
Whatever the serotonin generation issues are (and I definitely had them, and that's why I stopped taking it), they seem to recover over time.
What's next, internet discussion forums? Is anywhere safe??? :)
(Personal observation, everyone's different though)
To me you can do it for like a year maybe if you wanna have fun, but staying in that state for more than that is on the edge of abuse.
Once again, I support trying MDMA. But most people who do it don't do their research
I myself was diagnosed with ADHD, and psychedelics healed me and my past to the point where I no longer needed prescribed stimulants, so it’s possible that MDMA could help.
I find those really depressing and they can completely outweighs the benefit of the night for me.
Mostly for me it was a matter of understanding what the cause of that was. But yes, over time it was what stopped from me from continuing to take it, but all the benefit I really got out of it, therapeutically, happened in the first 2 or 3 times I took it, before I ever had the mid-week crash. Everything after that was just for fun.
* Get a good sleep, ideally at about the same time as usual. If you normally sleep 11pm-7am then obviously a 4am-8am sleep is obviously going to have an effect on your mood. The closer you can get to your normal routine, the better. This might mean taking it pretty early, which doesn't necessarily make sense in a club setting.
* Take magnesium before/during the high to prevent gurning (if this is a problem). A sore jaw makes everything worse the next day.
* Take 5-HTP as soon as you wake up.
* Either sleep in the same house as the people you dropped with, or get back together as soon as possible in the morning. This is essential to processing the experience in a positive, social way.
* Don't have anything scheduled involving work or family for at least a couple of days afterwards, ideally a week.
https://rollsafe.org/mdma-supplements/?_ga=2.33100862.187361...
Looking back on my raving career, now retired of course, this is fantastic advice and something I would never have thought to articulate.
Growing up in a poor neighborhood I had friends who were going to parties at like 13/14. MDMA, speed, LSD.
Still good friends with some of them and they are mostly ashamed of that period, and you can see severe permanent effects of abuse on some (again we knew each other since childhood).
I tried what I could get my hands on because I was curious, and I would go out with this crowd occasionally. It's far from roses and rainbows - getting emotionally unstable people riled up - I've seen/heard scary shit.
You can draw parallels to alcohol - drinking can be great for socialisation - and alcohol can ruin people, so I guess you could say it's unfair that one is illegal.
But I don't share the sentiment either way - "I wish alcohol/drugs were available to more people" is not something I'd like to see in practice.
I wish people were well-adjusted and have fulfilling and happy lives. If it takes broadly available MDMA to get there, then so be it.
> Completely unable to relate to other human beings, afraid of being touched, never had a girl friend or any kind of real friendship.
I'm convinced that most people identifying with this don't know how to articulate what their problem is. The magic words: you're struggling with intimacy.
Where MDMA isn't an option, intimacy coaches (not prostitutes-by-another-name, and not sexual surrogacy) specialize in this domain and can help you navigate these very issues.
The regulatory status is irrelevant IMO. Personally, I know that many of the most profound experiences of my life have been mediated by alcohol. My life has certainly been changed by it.
Despite the intense good feeling while you are on it, the understanding that I am basically OK persists afterwards.
[1] (thanks parents! You pair of evil cunts. At least one of you knew exactly what you were doing, and the other one just watched as it happened in front of you and did nothing)
But your point is why I am skeptical of the value of MDMA as like a one-on-one therapeutic tool. For me, it was not just that I was having the best night of my life, but that I was surrounded by people who were also having the best night of their lives. You could just look around and make eye contact with a random person and you both _knew_.
And that community didn't just _happen_. It was the product of lots of people curating that community -- the djs, the promoters, the dancers, etc. You can't just throw drugs into any random pool of people and expect that kind of magic to happen. There was an artistry to it.
Most of it, I would bet. From experience, I can say a night out on MDMA can be almost as lonely/alienating as one on ethanol. Still super interesting and fun, but nothing as enlightening as the positive anecdotes above.
Example: if you're physically attractive, but socially stunted, an MDMA night will give you a taste of The Other Side. If your situation is the other way around, guess what - physically unattractive people are still very much unwelcome on a dance floor, and people will still make that clear to you.
This shit is tricky, which is why we need more experienced users in society who can guide newcomers through it.
It was quite unpleasant to be surrounded by these people who clearly would only associate with others who fit whatever beauty norms they justified. I'm not someone who doesn't take care of themselves either but I am not blessed genetically either.
I skipped a few grades in school and became a social outcast. I was hazed out of one school entirely and sort of gave up on understanding people for a while. My first experience on MDMA was like a physical light switch was flicked on inside of my body. I went from only wearing black/white/gray clothes to being the one known to wear loud colors and really putting myself out there visually and socially. I ended up feeling the need to move away from my home town because I felt "too popular." I couldn't go for a run without someone stopping on the side of the street to offer me a ride to wherever. This sort of behavior continued into music festivals where I learned to manage and lead large scale groups of ~strangers in tough environments/confusing mindsets.
I thought these skills wouldn't prove valuable in the work world, but, to my elation and surprise, it was the opposite. A lot of engineers are really smart but a bit weaker on the political and social side of things. I undoubtedly nuked a few brain cells acquiring all these experiences, but hey I can still code just fine and now I love getting in there, talking to people about their feelings and communicating about how I am feeling, and do so with a belief that others are interested in hearing/seeing me.
10/10 would do it all over again.
I took nothing away from it but increased insight into how unnaturally happy one can be (on drugs) and how incredibly dull, depressing and soul crushing the average work day is.
Would I recommend others trying it? Yes, sure, it's fantastic -you gonna experience happiness on it you CAN NOT get without drugs, that's an interesting experience.
Going to rave and having people -- strangers! -- just hug me, and listen to me, and I'd listen to them and we could just talk to each other like normal people without this undercurrent of constant anxiety and fear of rejection. It was a miracle to me. And I mean that in both the banal sense and the religious sense. It wasn't just the interpersonal aspects of it, but like -- having these feelings of joy and happiness and seeing the beauty of the world wash over me in almost an overwhelming way despite the fact that absolutely _nothing_ had really changed about the world made me understand how much of my own unhappiness was internal, that i could _choose_ to see the world in a better light all the time -- not just when I was on drugs, but at any time, it was just a matter of perspective, and something that you have some level of control over.
I went from being someone who was almost completely isolated and withdrawn to learning how to DJ, to DJing at the _very same club_ that opened the world to me. I had a girlfriend within a few months, I had dozens of friends, I had a better paying job within a year, largely through connections I made at the club. I honestly think I'd have just turned into a homeless alcoholic or something without that experience. I have a hard time even imagining where I'd have ended up. I barely recognize the person that walked into that club the first night.
It's a tragedy that this drug isn't available to more people. I overdid it. A lot of people over did it, but 20 years later I don't regret any of it for a moment, even the bad nights.