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Re:Apple ditches the Lightning connector in favor of USB-C a... by xoa on Tuesday September 12, 2023 @01:59PM (#37484993)
So long and sooner into the landfill for a thermal camera, higher end environmental noise monitoring microphone, decent wrap around game controller pad, etc, and repurchasing all of the above. This must be some of that "reducing ewaste" and "saving us money" thing I've heard so much about on HN. Yay.

Edit: as I replied below, some accessories are form fitting, so no, can't use an adapter. Gamepad example I have (https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B08FFPKRYW/). And even for those that can work with an adapter, for anything but cables the result is longer/flimsier/more awkward/another point of failure, and what are adapters if not more ewaste? And is everyone supposed to by adapters for even lightning cables? I'm fairly certain lightning cables are all going to get tossed too, or at least a very high percentage as people switch. I'm resigned to it and I can afford it, just feels like this time was itself a waste and not based on data and carefully thought through tradeoffs but populism.

Re:Apple ditches the Lightning connector in favor of USB-C a... by zuminator on Tuesday September 12, 2023 @02:05PM (#37485054)
Re:Apple ditches the Lightning connector in favor of USB-C a... by xoa on Tuesday September 12, 2023 @02:16PM (#37485208)
Huh, I was going to respond to someone else but the post was deleted. So upvoting you, and here is what I wrote out when it was only a single reply:

----

A lot of accessories, docks etc are form fitting for good reason, and in that case no there will be no adapters, there just physically is no room. For anything handheld adapters tend to be more awkward and crappier if they work at all for anything that isn't a cable, hard to avoid in a that kind of space constrained scenario. For accessories like the mic yes an adapter likely could work, though it'll still be an extra half inch or whatever more fragile stuff stuck on the end. An irritation and extra expense for no value but not the end of it.

The conversation around it has been pretty annoying and self righteous though by promoters, even as it also felt like fait accompli as regulators started forcing it. Lots of braying about "ewaste" without any sort of analysis of what percentage of the waste stream that is (looks pretty minuscule) or the ROI on sweeping away all the enormous existing capital investment the public has made. I could even accept some sort of "yes this will mean more junk and cost in the near term but it'll pay off in 20 years". But for some reason all the conversations I've seen have brushed it aside with "uh adapters" or "well I only use cables myself".

Anyway, just consider my post a grumpy resigned last bit of pushback. I still don't really feel like government forcing Lightning -> USB-C was really worth it, if we were forcing a change I'd have preferred it at least going to something really thought through, ground shifting, and future proof forever like an optical hybrid. I think (I sure hope!) USB-C isn't "the end of history" in terms of peripheral connectors. But it's also all water under the dam at this point, and younger me may have been less grumpy, not like I haven't seen lots and lots (and lots)^n of connectors come and go over the decades already.

Re:Apple ditches the Lightning connector in favor of USB-C a... by zuminator on Tuesday September 12, 2023 @02:39PM (#37485660)
Those are very fair points. (Also acknowledging the sister comment that the particular adapters in my link are charge-only and wouldn't be helpful for your situation). What I find annoying is that lighting cables are rent-seeking proprietary Apple tech, and not even universally used in their own product. Apple already on their own makes people have to re-buy peripherals when they change standards, so it's not like they have a high ground.

And since you bring it up, I do actually hope that the USB-C form factor connector winds up being a permanent connector. Consider: AC mains power connector form factors, while they vary from country to country, are basically "finished" and don't have to keep getting revised every half decade. USB-C has proven to be tremendously scalable and imo is good enough that it could well be the final form for its use case for the foreseeable future.

Re:Apple ditches the Lightning connector in favor of USB-C a... by xoa on Tuesday September 12, 2023 @02:59PM (#37486088)
Thanks for the reply. A few thoughts/niggles, though again this is not a huge deal, more of a "pour one out" moment.

>What I find annoying is that lighting cables are rent-seeking proprietary Apple tech

I don't think this is a fair description frankly. Lightning was developed years before USB-C, which itself was heavily influenced by Apple, and the USB situation before that sucked. They themselves came up with something useful, better than what came before or the other options at the time. Sure, ideally they would have standardized it voluntarily and made it open for all, but by the same token why couldn't the rest of the industry be bothered to do a decent non-directional plug connector years before hand instead of monstrosities like the USB-3 Micro Type B? I think using "rent seeking" to mean "anything proprietary anyone develops and sells" starts feeling a little too expansive?

>and not even universally used in their own product

It's been universally used across what it was developed for though, the handheld devices. And in terms of raw performance capability and flexibility it's obviously much, much worse than Thunderbolt/USB-C which came later. I don't see why things would be better if it was on Macs?

>Apple already on their own makes people have to re-buy peripherals when they change standards, so it's not like they have a high ground.

Lightning has been around though 11 years, and the 30-pin connector 9 years before that. And would likely have been around years more without this. I don't think you can reasonably say they haven't had pretty decent runs when it comes to handheld/ultra portable devices? Apple has definitely been far, far faster moving when it comes to Macs for better and for worse. But again, I think that's not an apples-to-apples comparison, because computers almost always are connecting to things via cables not anything form fitting, they have plenty of space to work with. Which in turn means adapters really can be an acceptable (if suboptimal and disliked) solution.

Reasonable minds can differ of course!

>I do actually hope that the USB-C form factor connector winds up being a permanent connector.

I really, really don't. It stinks so much having to use copper vs fiber.

>USB-C has proven to be tremendously scalable

I can use the same OS2 I got a decade ago for a 10gbps to run 200 Gbps now. Same cable. For a few bucks per meter. And can do it over anywhere from 1 meter to kilometers.

Much better designs are possible then USB-C, and stuff could use it.

Re:Apple ditches the Lightning connector in favor of USB-C a... by Dylan16807 on Tuesday September 12, 2023 @08:51PM (#37490769)
> I think using "rent seeking" to mean "anything proprietary anyone develops and sells" starts feeling a little too expansive?

They charged a lot of money to make compatible devices. That makes it rent-seeking.

> It's been universally used across what it was developed for though, the handheld devices.

iPads are handheld aren't they?

> I really, really don't. It stinks so much having to use copper vs fiber.

Are you suggesting fiber couplings inside the plug? That sounds very delicate and prone to dirt, not good at all for a phone.

If you want a fiber cable with transceivers on each end, there's plenty of those.

But the price should tell you a lot about why we rarely use fiber for minor connections.

Re:Apple ditches the Lightning connector in favor of USB-C a... by ghaff on Tuesday September 12, 2023 @02:24PM (#37485301)
I pretty much agree with all that. I'm not doing high-fives about the shift to USB-C because as a long-time Apple phone (and other Apple products) customer I'm perfectly happy with the existing Lightning ports. But the shift is also sort of inevitable European regulators or not and everyone knew it was coming. And Apple have never been ones to maintain legacy interfaces even in devices less space constrained than a phone. (e.g. would it have killed them to maintain a USB-A port in a MacBook Pro?) But here we are.
Re:Apple ditches the Lightning connector in favor of USB-C a... by 05 on Tuesday September 12, 2023 @02:08PM (#37485105)
Those are charging adapters, you would need different ones for peripherals. I'm sure they'll show up soon enough.

EDIT: see e.g. here https://developer.apple.com/forums/thread/663707

Re:Apple ditches the Lightning connector in favor of USB-C a... by Symmetry on Tuesday September 12, 2023 @02:09PM (#37485106)
If you have that between the phone and the add-on the phone won't be held securely by the add on as a rigid unit.
Re:Apple ditches the Lightning connector in favor of USB-C a... by ejstronge on Tuesday September 12, 2023 @02:07PM (#37485087)
> So long and sooner into the landfill for a thermal camera, higher end environmental noise monitoring microphone, decent wrap around game controller pad, etc, and repurchasing all of the above. This must be some of that "reducing ewaste" and "saving us money" thing I've heard so much about on HN. Yay.

These peripherals had lightning ports in them? You can't use a USB-C - Lightning cable and continue using them??

Re:Apple ditches the Lightning connector in favor of USB-C a... by discussDev on Tuesday September 12, 2023 @02:09PM (#37485117)
While a small percentage of people will have things that can't be used, my IR camera also connects directly to the phone bottom and you specify what port you want when you buy it as it is flush with the phone. For most people however I doubt it will be an issue.
Re:Apple ditches the Lightning connector in favor of USB-C a... by foobarian on Tuesday September 12, 2023 @02:17PM (#37485216)
Or, you know, don't get the 15 for 5 years or so.
Re:Apple ditches the Lightning connector in favor of USB-C a... by xattt on Tuesday September 12, 2023 @02:11PM (#37485140)
I can’t believe also Apple announced that Tim Cook himself will go into peoples’ homes to rip out existing devices from their hands.

/s

Re:Apple ditches the Lightning connector in favor of USB-C a... by buildbot on Tuesday September 12, 2023 @02:09PM (#37485115)
<snark> People complain for 11 years that they used lightning, now of course, we can complain that Apple has created a bunch of e-waste. Wins for everyone who loves to complain! </snark>

This is the reason Apple waited 11 years - to reduce the impact. Plus, there will be adapters.

Re:Apple ditches the Lightning connector in favor of USB-C a... by ninkendo on Tuesday September 12, 2023 @02:12PM (#37485161)
Every year they waited is another year for more lightning peripherals to get bought and become future e-waste. They should have done this far sooner, the moment it became "inevitable" (ie. when they started moving all their other devices to it.)
Re:Apple ditches the Lightning connector in favor of USB-C a... by ghaff on Tuesday September 12, 2023 @02:16PM (#37485207)
I doubt it was to "reduce the impact" so much as it was to push off as long as possible making a shift that inevitably is more of a con than a pro to people considering upgrading their phones.
Re:Apple ditches the Lightning connector in favor of USB-C a... by Dylan16807 on Tuesday September 12, 2023 @02:15PM (#37485195)
What makes you think this reduces the impact?
Re:Apple ditches the Lightning connector in favor of USB-C a... by NickC25 on Tuesday September 12, 2023 @02:14PM (#37485180)
I think it's more that Apple had the money to ignore the EU regulators for 11 years, rather than wanting to reduce the environmental impact of their chargers.

They were pissed that the EU doesn't bend to the will of corporations like the US does, so they dragged their feet for over a decade.

Re:Apple ditches the Lightning connector in favor of USB-C a... by mercutio2 on Tuesday September 12, 2023 @02:17PM (#37485222)
USB-C has only existed for 9 years. Apple has not been ignoring EU regulators for 11 years.
Re:Apple ditches the Lightning connector in favor of USB-C a... by Nullabillity on Tuesday September 12, 2023 @02:53PM (#37485959)
They were ignoring Micro-USB long before that.
Re:Apple ditches the Lightning connector in favor of USB-C a... by buildbot on Tuesday September 12, 2023 @05:21PM (#37488594)
Micro-usb really sucked though. I had several android phones that had broken micro-usb ports.

Lightning is actually a really nice connector design, despite the hate.

Re:Apple ditches the Lightning connector in favor of USB-C a... by gnicholas on Tuesday September 12, 2023 @02:08PM (#37485093)
There was a certain irony that they spent so much time talking about their environmental progress (the video with Mother Nature was riduculous, IMO), and then slid in the USB-C bit without mentioning the environmental impact of ditching the lightning connector.
Re:Apple ditches the Lightning connector in favor of USB-C a... by toast0 on Tuesday September 12, 2023 @02:17PM (#37485223)
I'm sure the environmental impact of ditching lightning is mixed. On the plus side, long term, having everyone on the same connector is good in lots of ways. In the short term, it's disruptive. It also makes it easier to switch between platforms or live in a multi-platform household; this is good for people, and might be good for Apple or might not.

There's a reason Apple waited 10 years to change on iPhones, even though they switched to USB-C on other products.

They could have potentially had both ports, but nobody seems to want to put two ports on phones, and Apple is not one to put an old and new thing together.

Re:Apple ditches the Lightning connector in favor of USB-C a... by nerpderp82 on Tuesday September 12, 2023 @02:28PM (#37485383)
USB-C should have been the lightning connector, it is a better connector than USB-C.
Re:Apple ditches the Lightning connector in favor of USB-C a... by Dork1234 on Tuesday September 12, 2023 @02:40PM (#37485690)
USB-C came out after lighting connector, 30 pin connector was at the end of the life when it came out. Apple didn't have a good choice.
Re:Apple ditches the Lightning connector in favor of USB-C a... by nerpderp82 on Wednesday September 13, 2023 @03:42PM (#37500829)
USB-C should have been the paddle style lightning connector. I am not saying that Apple should have used USB-C, I am saying that the physical connector for USB-C should have been the paddle style of lightning.
Re:Apple ditches the Lightning connector in favor of USB-C a... by Dylan16807 on Tuesday September 12, 2023 @03:01PM (#37486129)
Lightning seems to have some physical issues with power delivery, and I haven't seen the size difference matter for anything bigger than earbuds.
Re:Apple ditches the Lightning connector in favor of USB-C a... by yohannparis on Tuesday September 12, 2023 @02:13PM (#37485167)
Or don't throw away your iPhone with lightning! I'm sure the iPhone SE and 14 are still for sell for a couple of years. So unless you want a brand new iPhone every year, then your argument is nill.