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Re:Mullvad on Tailscale: Privately browse the web by k__ on Thursday September 07, 2023 @11:40AM (#37420589)
What's the unique selling point of Mullvad?
Re:Mullvad on Tailscale: Privately browse the web by gameoverhumans on Thursday September 07, 2023 @11:43AM (#37420663)
You can pay for the service by mailing them cash: https://mullvad.net/en/pricing

They run servers with no hard drives: https://mullvad.net/en/blog/2022/8/1/expanding-diskless-infr...

Re:Mullvad on Tailscale: Privately browse the web by vinay_ys on Thursday September 07, 2023 @12:30PM (#37421499)
You cannot hide from governments. If they want you badly enough they can track you anywhere. So, don't do anything illegal and expect any VPN to protect you because paid in cash! Remember, all governments have secret national security laws to surveil all data all the time and almost all governments' (even supposed enemies) secret national security agencies cooperate if they badly want to catch someone.

You cannot hide from advertisers if you use a smartphone with apps. App developers who put ads within their app control the apps behavior completely and hence they can fingerprint your device and track you very well without using IP addresses. And within browsers, they can fingerprint you through many javascript features of the browser. Hiding your source IP does very little for your privacy.

Almost all traffic (apps and websites) are encrypted via TLS (https, for example). So, even if you are on an insecure network, unless your OS's TLS certificate store is compromised, your communications are encrypted and protected against snooping from that insecure network.

Also, even on open wifi networks, today, it is very unlikely that the wifi is running without at least WPA2 encryption. Most modern airports run secure wifi. (But they also monitor all traffic metadata for illegal activities).

So, using a VPN as an exit node is just privacy theatre. VPN exit nodes in faraway countries are useful for bypassing content censorship in your own country, but it works only if the content streaming service cooperates with you.

Remember, all ISPs are heavily regulated by governments and can be asked to mirror specific customer's traffic for analysis. I would be very surprised if they don't proactively do it for all VPN operator nodes by default.

Re:Mullvad on Tailscale: Privately browse the web by ballenf on Thursday September 07, 2023 @12:37PM (#37421612)
Are there browser plugins that can "fake" your browser fingerprint somewhat? Like, e.g., only showing OS default fonts installed, or fixing screen dimension info, etc? Or would this require forking a browser's code?

Maybe futile, but I'd still consider using it.

Re:Mullvad on Tailscale: Privately browse the web by bananapub on Thursday September 07, 2023 @12:41PM (#37421689)
yes, and it's one of the things the Tor browser does to make fingerprinting harder.
Re:Mullvad on Tailscale: Privately browse the web by ballenf on Thursday September 07, 2023 @12:45PM (#37421756)
But can it be down with an extension to Chrome/Safari/"normal" Firefox?
Re:Mullvad on Tailscale: Privately browse the web by seaal on Thursday September 07, 2023 @01:19PM (#37422298)
LibreWolf has pretty good defaults for anti-fingerprinting if you just want something that is setup and works.

https://librewolf.net/docs/features/

Re:Mullvad on Tailscale: Privately browse the web by ipaddr on Thursday September 07, 2023 @12:59PM (#37421972)
yes
Re:Mullvad on Tailscale: Privately browse the web by Conting on Friday September 08, 2023 @02:32AM (#37430180)
The Firefox extension "Fingerprint Shield" will show you when a canvas is generated in your browser. You can try it out on Best Buy.

https://archive.ph/ZjnwY

Re:Mullvad on Tailscale: Privately browse the web by armoredkitten on Thursday September 07, 2023 @02:24PM (#37423372)
Firefox has an experimental fingerprinting protection option built in, which you can enable with a flag: https://support.mozilla.org/en-US/kb/firefox-protection-agai...
Re:Mullvad on Tailscale: Privately browse the web by Bu9818 on Thursday September 07, 2023 @09:21PM (#37428098)
Tor Browser and Mullvad Browser are your best options, but they aren't browser plugins. Some of their protection is implemented with browser patches.
Re:Mullvad on Tailscale: Privately browse the web by whimsicalism on Thursday September 07, 2023 @12:46PM (#37421775)
> You cannot hide from governments.

Plenty of people have and I would rather they have to spend a Tor 0day amount of cash to do it than to do it trivially.

> You cannot hide from advertisers if you use a smartphone with apps. App developers who put ads within their app control the apps behavior completely and hence they can fingerprint your device and track you very well without using IP addresses. And within browsers, they can fingerprint you through many javascript features of the browser. Hiding your source IP does very little for your privacy.

Sure, if you have sketchy apps, but Apple has both legal enforcement and approval of apps.

> So, using a VPN as an exit node is just privacy theatre. VPN exit nodes in faraway countries are useful for bypassing content censorship in your own country, but it works only if the content streaming service cooperates with you.

...? They can't trace where your requests came from....

Re:Mullvad on Tailscale: Privately browse the web by vinay_ys on Friday September 08, 2023 @01:28AM (#37429719)
Re:Mullvad on Tailscale: Privately browse the web by foobiekr on Thursday September 07, 2023 @11:51AM (#37420802)
The cash thing is awesome and good for them.

That said, I don't know if Mullvad is good or evil, but one of the ways you can evaluate companies is to recognize when they're making sketchy, not-relevant claims to create an air of legitimacy.

This "our servers have no disks" thing is kind of thing is marketing. It is meant to imply something that it doesn't actually demonstrate. Who cares if there are local disks? It doesn't change the threat model at all, it's mostly to convince people who don't know very much about claims which are basically impossible to prove. It's the higher-tier version of "we use military grade encryption."

Lawful Intercept on the public internet does not rely on local hard drives on any node in the network and has not since the 90s, as a specific example of how meaningless this is.

Re:Mullvad on Tailscale: Privately browse the web by whimsicalism on Thursday September 07, 2023 @11:55AM (#37420872)
I disagree - while it does not prove they are doing something nefarious, I think it is easier to demonstrate that you aren't logging to network calls than it is that you are accidentally spilling something to disk.
Re:Mullvad on Tailscale: Privately browse the web by dharmab on Thursday September 07, 2023 @11:55AM (#37420865)
In Sweden, physical search of the drives is a real concern. The Swedish national police attempted to search Mullvad once, but since there was no data to seize they left empty handed.
Re:Mullvad on Tailscale: Privately browse the web by nextaccountic on Thursday September 07, 2023 @12:34PM (#37421571)
> The Swedish national police attempted to search Mullvad once, but since there was no data to seize they left empty handed.

They were just unprepared. There was plenty of data to seize, but it was in RAM. They just needed the right equipment to do a cold boot attack [0] [1]

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cold_boot_attack

[1] https://wootconference.org/papers/woot23-paper3.pdf

Re:Mullvad on Tailscale: Privately browse the web by dharmab on Thursday September 07, 2023 @12:59PM (#37421973)
"just needed" is a simplification. Very few organizations outside the US federal 3-letter agencies have the resources to spend on volatile data recovery in practice. Even the FBI isn't going to bother unless they're confident some extremely valuable evidence is involved.
Re:Mullvad on Tailscale: Privately browse the web by jefurii on Saturday September 09, 2023 @04:18PM (#37449859)
(Un)fortunately there is a device for these situations: https://wiebetech.com/products/hotplug-field-kit/

"The HotPlug's patented technology keeps power flowing to the computer while transferring the computer's power input from one A/C source (such as a wall outlet or power strip) to another (a portable UPS) and back again."

Re:Mullvad on Tailscale: Privately browse the web by anigbrowl on Thursday September 07, 2023 @12:11PM (#37421148)
Realistically, what prevents police from just sticking in a USB device and doing a memory dump? I'm not sure I buy this story since police with a sufficiently strong warrant can always just take over a firm's premises and bring in their own forensic people until they find what they want.
Re:Mullvad on Tailscale: Privately browse the web by cstrahan on Thursday September 07, 2023 @12:23PM (#37421374)
I could be wrong, but I would think that a conveniently timed power outage would prevent the memory dumping scenario :)
Re:Mullvad on Tailscale: Privately browse the web by anigbrowl on Thursday September 07, 2023 @12:29PM (#37421479)
Unless you automate this process to flush all memory periodically, this seems like a good way to get charged for interfering with an investigation or have your assets seized and thrown into legal limbo. Police aren't complete morons, in the real world goofing around like this has consequences.
Re:Mullvad on Tailscale: Privately browse the web by bananapub on Thursday September 07, 2023 @12:46PM (#37421773)
this is such a dumb position, holy shit.

no they haven't built an impregnable system, neither has anyone else in the history of the world.

they have raised the bar very fucking high, though.

normal vpn company: oh yes, Officer, here's their credit card details and a list of all IPs they've ever connected from, and DNS logs from our internal servers

mullvad: OK, I guess you have the corrupted partial contents of memory of one machine that you managed to dump after dawn raiding us with guns and using liquid nitrogen to freeze the DRAM for a cold boot attack where you now have 90 minutes before entropy claims another victim.

one company tried a lot harder and made things a lot better. dumb equivalence arguments are dumb.

I think you need to familiarise yourself with the Mickens Security Model: https://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2015/08/mickens_on_se...

making yourself resistant to casual subpoena attacks for little cost is valuable thing for a lot of people.

Re:Mullvad on Tailscale: Privately browse the web by anigbrowl on Thursday September 07, 2023 @02:30PM (#37423463)
It's not a position, it's a simple question. Given that I can get a lot of information out of a computer to which I have physical access with only middling forensic skills, I'm inclined to think that the police can do at least as well if they're sufficiently motivated.
Re:Mullvad on Tailscale: Privately browse the web by kfreds on Thursday September 07, 2023 @12:29PM (#37421475)
> one of the ways you can evaluate companies is to recognize when they're making sketchy, not-relevant claims to create an air of legitimacy.

This is an excellent heuristic. Personally I like to evaluate trustworthiness in terms of integrity and competence - can I trust their values and can I trust that they know what they are doing? Words are cheap of course. Consistent action across several years is much harder to fake. It also overlaps with another heuristic I use to model and predict the behaviour of a company; a company's behaviour will converge on the shareholders' goals over time.

> This "our servers have no disks" thing is kind of thing is marketing.

You are correct that we considered that aspect while writing the blog post, but please read the content before passing judgement. See the section titled "To recap about “no disks in use”" in particular.

On the topic of "air of legitimacy" I'll just leave these here:

* Our apps have been open-source since we launched in 2009

* Our response to Shellshock: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8385332

* Our thoughts on WireGuard in 2017: https://mullvad.net/en/blog/2017/9/27/wireguard-future/

* Experimental post-quantum KEM support in 2017: https://mullvad.net/en/blog/2017/12/8/introducing-post-quant...

The blog post you commented on also talks extensively about how it was one of our first steps in making our infrastructure transparent. Here are just two things we've done as part of that project:

* "This is the first time a modern off-the-shelf server platform gains coreboot support, and it is an integral part of realizing our vision of transparent and independently auditable VPN servers." - https://mullvad.net/en/blog/2019/8/7/open-source-firmware-fu...

And finally, we've spent 2-3 years designing a transparency log with distributed trust assumptions. One of many critical parts necessary to achieve our vision of transparent server infrastructure. I'll wager that there's no transparency log with a stronger threat model than ours. https://www.sigsum.org

We're certainly not without fault, but hopefully this helps inform your opinion of Mullvad.

Best regards, Fredrik Stromberg (co-founder of Mullvad VPN, Tillitis, Glasklar Teknik)

Re:Mullvad on Tailscale: Privately browse the web by dharmab on Thursday September 07, 2023 @11:50AM (#37420790)
Not just no drives but, but also no logs, and per their last audit they're working towards no administrator access to the shell.
Re:Mullvad on Tailscale: Privately browse the web by foobiekr on Thursday September 07, 2023 @11:51AM (#37420807)
If they can update software they have administrator access any time they want it.
Re:Mullvad on Tailscale: Privately browse the web by dharmab on Thursday September 07, 2023 @11:57AM (#37420900)
But that requires compromising the supply chain rather than a single admin's account.
Re:Mullvad on Tailscale: Privately browse the web by foobiekr on Thursday September 07, 2023 @01:02PM (#37422031)
No it just requires the company wanting to do it due to a government order.

The “compromise” is coming from inside the house. Might as well claim no one knows the admin passwords because they are written in a notebook that the management keeps in their home safe.

Re:Mullvad on Tailscale: Privately browse the web by Thaxll on Thursday September 07, 2023 @12:18PM (#37421292)
How do they comply with countries that requiere logs actually?
Re:Mullvad on Tailscale: Privately browse the web by lolinder on Thursday September 07, 2023 @12:27PM (#37421446)
Presumably by operating in a country that doesn't.
Re:Mullvad on Tailscale: Privately browse the web by SleekEagle on Thursday September 07, 2023 @01:42PM (#37422687)
You can mail in cash for ivpn too
Re:Mullvad on Tailscale: Privately browse the web by master-lincoln on Thursday September 07, 2023 @11:44AM (#37420675)
trustworthiness
Re:Mullvad on Tailscale: Privately browse the web by dewey on Thursday September 07, 2023 @11:45AM (#37420698)
Re:Mullvad on Tailscale: Privately browse the web by alangibson on Thursday September 07, 2023 @11:50AM (#37420786)
They practice what they preach. The recently stopped selling recurring subscriptions, and most likely threw away a big chunk of money, because there was no way to support them in an anonymous way.
Re:Mullvad on Tailscale: Privately browse the web by rozab on Thursday September 07, 2023 @12:17PM (#37421277)
I'm glad I have a grandfathered subscription, because that seems like a usability nightmare
Re:Mullvad on Tailscale: Privately browse the web by ipaddr on Thursday September 07, 2023 @01:15PM (#37422245)
Convenience is the enemy of security
Re:Mullvad on Tailscale: Privately browse the web by bananapub on Thursday September 07, 2023 @12:04PM (#37421029)
they take privacy extremely seriously, by trying to reduce the amount of data they even have that can get subpoenaed (no logs, no accounts, accept payment by cash) and appear to have not yet fucked up.