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Re:America Is Using Up Its Groundwater Like There’s No Tomorrow by insane_dreamer on Tuesday August 29, 2023 @09:14AM (#37307366)
An important topic that doesn't get enough attention. We need to start switching to crops that require less water (goodbye almonds, pistachios and alfalfa!). Meat consumption plays a big role too since pasture requires more water than many crops.
Re:America Is Using Up Its Groundwater Like There’s No Tomorrow by drunner on Tuesday August 29, 2023 @09:21AM (#37307475)
At the very least, regionalize the production better. Throwing out the way we currently do water rights and putting sensible limits on how much can be used for ag production would go a long ways.
Re:America Is Using Up Its Groundwater Like There’s No Tomorrow by causi on Tuesday August 29, 2023 @09:23AM (#37307516)
Throwing out the way we currently do water rights

Good luck with that one. Southern California has defeated basically every attempt to reform water rights.

Re:America Is Using Up Its Groundwater Like There’s No Tomorrow by galangalalgol on Tuesday August 29, 2023 @09:47AM (#37307876)
Referendums can do almost anything in California can't they? Pass a water reform law as an amendment to their constitution that states the judiciary has no power to interpret the amendment. Declare war on the pacific and declare pi to be 3.
Re:America Is Using Up Its Groundwater Like There’s No Tomorrow by eppp on Tuesday August 29, 2023 @09:54AM (#37307991)
Arent water rights mostly a federal issue at this point?
Re:America Is Using Up Its Groundwater Like There’s No Tomorrow by PaulDavisThe1st on Tuesday August 29, 2023 @10:09AM (#37308212)
No.

The water compacts between states are the responsibility of the federal government, but water rights (i.e. landowners' right to access ground water and sometimes river water) are state matters.

Re:America Is Using Up Its Groundwater Like There’s No Tomorrow by jonhohle on Tuesday August 29, 2023 @10:11AM (#37308224)
Why would the federal government have any control over a states water rights? Except on water on federal land the US government has no authority to control a state’s use of its water, nor should it.
Re:America Is Using Up Its Groundwater Like There’s No Tomorrow by datavirtue on Tuesday August 29, 2023 @10:15AM (#37308297)
Climate change === mass migration.

Right now all the people out west think that is something that applies to people in third world countries. In the US it's going to be an attempted migration of the west's middle class to other regions.

At first they will have buyers for their homes to fund the migration...until they don't. Before that there will be a frenzy of wasteful government spending to try to preserve the regions and way of life. It will not work.

Climate change is the reason we keep digging up civilizations that "just disappeared without a trace."

Re:America Is Using Up Its Groundwater Like There’s No Tomorrow by galangalalgol on Tuesday August 29, 2023 @12:14PM (#37310079)
The actual west coast is pretty low impact other than sea rise. If you are close enough for the breeze but far enough to avoid the storm surge with a 1.5m rise, that is your ideal. The reason is the cool/cold pacific current. There is no prediction that it will shift, and if it did, I'm not sure any models would tell us what came next. The rainfall issue is certainly a thing, but it impacts agriculture and housing further inland. The east isn't safe either, the extremes will get more extreme. Places that don't usually have A/C will need it. Altitude is your best bet. Buy on the west side of the rockies for the rain at ~7-9kft. Not that your deed will matter when everyone comes knocking.
Re:America Is Using Up Its Groundwater Like There’s No Tomorrow by dredmorbius on Thursday August 31, 2023 @07:25AM (#37335496)
Southern California's watershed (Los Angeles, San Diego, Inland Empire), extends 1,500 miles eastward, to the eastern front of the Rocky Mountains, watershed for the Colorado River.

One reason urban developments are so sparse and widely-separated west of the Rockies is that there's simply insufficient water, rights are held under Spanish-derived law (seniority), and those senior rights are held, many by large West Coast cities, most especially Los Angeles.

Climate changes across that entire region will have a profound impact on coastal dwellers, even if sea-level rise is modest and coastal climates are largely unchanged. Simply because that's not where the water is coming from.

(Northern California's water largely comes from Sierra Nevada snowpack (San Francisco, Central Valley), or local reservoirs (mostly coastal counties). Santa Barbara similarly relies on local sources, largely Lake Cachuma, a reservoir in the Santa Ynez Valley. Supplies can dip parlously low in drought years. <https://www.countyofsb.org/2795/Reservoirs>).

Re:America Is Using Up Its Groundwater Like There’s No Tomorrow by masklinn on Tuesday August 29, 2023 @09:52AM (#37307955)
> regionalize the production better.

Most crops you can’t regionalise, they grow where they grow and that’s about it. You won’t get oranges in Maine (except under greenhouses at insane costs).

The Central Valley is exceptional because of how flexible and productive an environment it is, it’s home to half the fruits, vegetables, and nuts production of the US, 8% of the US agricultural value, and is the primary worldwide producer of several crops.

So what is necessary is to change minds about what produces people get, and when.

Re:America Is Using Up Its Groundwater Like There’s No Tomorrow by hattmall on Tuesday August 29, 2023 @10:28AM (#37308466)
Any idea what percent of it irrigation it accounts for?
Re:America Is Using Up Its Groundwater Like There’s No Tomorrow by jacobr1 on Tuesday August 29, 2023 @10:27AM (#37308448)
There is already a great way to do this: prices! The market isn't perfect, but with commodities it really does seem to function. We don't need artificial usage limits, we just need to charge for water on the open market. Reserve whatever is needed for residential use and sustainability and auction the rest. Or allow it to be sold freely.

Right now many pleases have a tragedy of the commons situation. If you don't use up as much water as possible, and dig deeper wells to use it up faster than your neighbors, then you can end up with no water and out of business. If you could secure specific water rights you could plan your business. Farms _would_ go out of business with crops that are too water-intensive relative to the price, but that is actually a desirable property of the system. Those crops will raise in price until the demand lowers and the cost of higher water is sustained. Lower water-utilizing crops will replace the previous higher intensity usage.

Re:America Is Using Up Its Groundwater Like There’s No Tomorrow by lapcat on Tuesday August 29, 2023 @10:47AM (#37308739)
Letting a few billionaires buy all of the water in the country is just one step closer to complete dystopia.
Re:America Is Using Up Its Groundwater Like There’s No Tomorrow by someplaceguy on Tuesday August 29, 2023 @12:36PM (#37310383)
Yeah, making water sources private property might not turn out well.

But if the water sources are publicly managed and water consumption is priced progressively (and sustainably) at the source, I don't see what the problem is of letting markets do the rest.

Although water pollution should be addressed as well, but this is required regardless of the scenario.

Re:America Is Using Up Its Groundwater Like There’s No Tomorrow by happymellon on Tuesday August 29, 2023 @10:59AM (#37308920)
> There is already a great way to do this: prices! The market isn't perfect, but with commodities it really does seem to function.

That's absolutely insane.

Don't worry poor people, you won't be able to drink water because Amazon is being lazy with pumping tap water to cool it's data centers, but it's okay because markets have deemed you irrelevant!

Re:America Is Using Up Its Groundwater Like There’s No Tomorrow by Veserv on Tuesday August 29, 2023 @11:17AM (#37309183)
GP literally said start by reserving water for residential and sustainability use and only sell the rest on the market (i.e. the portion currently used for commercial activity such as power and agriculture). If you demand extreme pedantry, you can expand the reserved quantity to whatever arbitrary domestic carveout usage you desire as profit-seeking, commercial water depletion is >80% of water usage, so any non-commercial carveout is largely irrelevant to depletion.
Re:America Is Using Up Its Groundwater Like There’s No Tomorrow by shamwow_ on Tuesday August 29, 2023 @11:14AM (#37309147)
It's not insane. Open markets work for every other type of commodity, and there is little reason to think it won't work for water usage as well.

Also data centers don't use water for cooling. They primarily use air cooling, and last time i checked air conditioning doesn't require a constant supply of water.

Re:America Is Using Up Its Groundwater Like There’s No Tomorrow by happymellon on Tuesday August 29, 2023 @11:39AM (#37309543)
> Also data centers don't use water for cooling.

Some do, some don't.

https://www.theregister.com/2023/07/27/thames_water_to_datac...

> Not all datacenters use water for cooling, but of those that do, a large facility might use anywhere between 1 million and 5 million gallons of water a day

Re:America Is Using Up Its Groundwater Like There’s No Tomorrow by korse on Tuesday August 29, 2023 @01:21PM (#37311017)
Your home AC, sure. However... pretty much every facility with a physical plant (hospitals, universities, data centers, skyscrapers, factories etc.) uses cooling towers to dump heat from their internal systems into the environment.

Nearly all cooling towers require a constant water supply. Some water is recycled, but it is not anywhere near a closed loop system.

Re:America Is Using Up Its Groundwater Like There’s No Tomorrow by someplaceguy on Tuesday August 29, 2023 @12:33PM (#37310348)
Water consumption can be taxed/priced progressively at the source to address that concern.

i.e. The more you consume, the higher you pay.

Re:America Is Using Up Its Groundwater Like There’s No Tomorrow by greenie_beans on Tuesday August 29, 2023 @11:24AM (#37309301)
if we're talking agriculture, then those prices will be subsidized by the federal government. the free market isn't free, especially in agriculture.
Re:America Is Using Up Its Groundwater Like There’s No Tomorrow by googlryas on Tuesday August 29, 2023 @12:13PM (#37310066)
Perhaps that's an end-around for water rights issues. You can't "just" take the water rights from long established players. But it might be easier to simply apply a water tax, a base rate multiplied by how much water the product required to create, divided by the abundance of water in the region.
Re:America Is Using Up Its Groundwater Like There’s No Tomorrow by jacobr1 on Thursday August 31, 2023 @10:19AM (#37337541)
Yes this is the hard part. Any change to existing rights is very politically difficult to accomplish.
Re:America Is Using Up Its Groundwater Like There’s No Tomorrow by gruez on Tuesday August 29, 2023 @10:47AM (#37308734)
>Throwing out the way we currently do water rights

IANAL but is that even remotely feasible? My impression is that they're basically akin to property rights, and the state unilaterally revoking them is going to be blocked by the courts.

[dead]
Re:America Is Using Up Its Groundwater Like There’s No Tomorrow by smcg on Tuesday August 29, 2023 @09:26AM (#37307564)
They'll be food justice camps run by Nestle. You know the company that employs child slaves.
Re:America Is Using Up Its Groundwater Like There’s No Tomorrow by PM_me_your_math on Tuesday August 29, 2023 @09:52AM (#37307961)
Like Apple? Think Different.
Re:America Is Using Up Its Groundwater Like There’s No Tomorrow by drewg123 on Tuesday August 29, 2023 @09:44AM (#37307833)
Indeed. Beef actually plays the biggest role. From what I can find, feef requires 106gal/oz while almonds require 23gal/oz. Reducing animal agriculture has so many benefits for the planet.
Re:America Is Using Up Its Groundwater Like There’s No Tomorrow by someplaceguy on Tuesday August 29, 2023 @09:54AM (#37307992)
Sure, but more importantly, beef requires only 10.6 gal/taste unit while almonds require 46 gal/taste unit.
Re:America Is Using Up Its Groundwater Like There’s No Tomorrow by hellisothers on Tuesday August 29, 2023 @10:32AM (#37308531)
What is a taste unit?
Re:America Is Using Up Its Groundwater Like There’s No Tomorrow by someplaceguy on Tuesday August 29, 2023 @10:52AM (#37308805)
It's each person's measure of how much you go "hmm...! That was sooo good!" after eating 1 oz of a certain type of food.

In that example, 1 oz of beef contains 10 of my taste units while 1 oz of almonds contains 0.5 of my taste units.

Since each person's taste units are different, humans have decided that the best way to allocate food is to sell it on something called a "market", where each person can express their own individual taste units, or "preferences", by buying the food on this "market".

The price of the food on the market reflects the scarcity of the food and everything it took to produce it, although sometimes there are distortions which should be corrected externally (e.g. by a government), not by restricting the types of food we consume, but by addressing their root causes at the source (e.g. by artificially adjusting the water price to address the tragedy of the commons, or by taxing CO2 production at a sufficient level).

Re:America Is Using Up Its Groundwater Like There’s No Tomorrow by conkeisterdoor on Tuesday August 29, 2023 @10:55AM (#37308856)
I love it. I also enjoy beef way more than almonds.
Re:America Is Using Up Its Groundwater Like There’s No Tomorrow by ericjmorey on Tuesday August 29, 2023 @10:00AM (#37308078)
Raising cattle doesn't generally use water from or divert water from aquifers.
Re:America Is Using Up Its Groundwater Like There’s No Tomorrow by saalweachter on Tuesday August 29, 2023 @10:26AM (#37308438)
Depends on the place, depends on the method, depends on the scale.

Beef and dairy can be a way to convert grasslands to human-consumable calories or be used to convert overproduction of grains (necessary as insurance against crop failures) into high quality protein, but it can also be a way to degrade marginal ecosystems and convert groundwater into an unhealthy national diet.

Re:America Is Using Up Its Groundwater Like There’s No Tomorrow by PaulDavisThe1st on Tuesday August 29, 2023 @10:10AM (#37308218)
Where do you think it comes from, then?
Re:America Is Using Up Its Groundwater Like There’s No Tomorrow by Ekaros on Tuesday August 29, 2023 @10:14AM (#37308272)
Sky...
Re:America Is Using Up Its Groundwater Like There’s No Tomorrow by PaulDavisThe1st on Tuesday August 29, 2023 @10:50AM (#37308781)
Most cattle production happens west of the 98th meridian, where not enough water falls from the sky to support livestock or vegetable or fruit production at commercial scale.
Re:America Is Using Up Its Groundwater Like There’s No Tomorrow by andreiii on Tuesday August 29, 2023 @09:51AM (#37307943)
is not like that water stays within the animal. most of it is back into the natural circuit very quick.
Re:America Is Using Up Its Groundwater Like There’s No Tomorrow by masklinn on Tuesday August 29, 2023 @09:54AM (#37307985)
The same is true of most crops, almonds contain less than 5% water.

The problem is that the water is still pumped out the acquifer, and non-acquifer water is still water which generally becomes unavailable to other uses because it evaporates or is too polluted.

Re:America Is Using Up Its Groundwater Like There’s No Tomorrow by myshpa on Tuesday August 29, 2023 @12:29PM (#37310297)
And those pastures and alfalfa fields don't replenish aquifers, forests do.
Re:America Is Using Up Its Groundwater Like There’s No Tomorrow by reaperman on Tuesday August 29, 2023 @12:43PM (#37310480)
PDCAAS of almonds is 0.44 so gallons per gram of absorbable protein would be 15gal/g for beef vs. 8.7gal/g for almonds.
Re:America Is Using Up Its Groundwater Like There’s No Tomorrow by donkeyd on Tuesday August 29, 2023 @10:04AM (#37308125)
> pasture requires more water than many crops

I see this argument often in the discussion around meat (beef, mostly) consumption. I also see the counter that most of that water goes straight back into the ground and most of the rest goes back in after it goes through the cow.

The counter seems logical to me, but I am probably missing something?

Re:America Is Using Up Its Groundwater Like There’s No Tomorrow by PaulDavisThe1st on Tuesday August 29, 2023 @10:07AM (#37308187)
Evaporation. In most places that do above-ground irrigation of livestock crops, humidity is low, temperatures are warm, and a significant part of the water is lost to evaporation.
Re:America Is Using Up Its Groundwater Like There’s No Tomorrow by tzs on Tuesday August 29, 2023 @10:54AM (#37308832)
Then what happens to it?

For example just looking at the prevailing winds in the San Joaquin valley I'd expect a lot of water that evaporates there to end up as rain in the Sierra Nevada mountains. Does that in fact happen?

If so, where does that water go after it becomes rain?

If not, where does it go?

The Earth's water systems as a whole are a huge collection of cyclic paths, with many branches. If you artificially take water from someplace and drop it someplace else you have almost always just borrowed the water and it will eventually end up back where it came from.

"Eventually" could be a very long time though, and if we borrow enough water for long enough it is possible we could permanently change some of the cycles so that some places never recover their water.

I've not been able to find any analysis that looks at this from a whole systems approach and figures out if we are borrowing enough to permanently change things, or how long it takes borrowed water in specific cases to effectively return.

Re:America Is Using Up Its Groundwater Like There’s No Tomorrow by myshpa on Tuesday August 29, 2023 @12:22PM (#37310203)
ELI5: Forests retain rainwater in the soil, cool the soil, nourish soil biodiversity, contribute to the formation of new rainfall, distribute it inland, alter local microclimates, and sustain biodiversity.

With pastures, none of that applies.

Re:America Is Using Up Its Groundwater Like There’s No Tomorrow by reducesuffering on Tuesday August 29, 2023 @12:44PM (#37310506)
So you don’t know then?

Like GP I am also more interested in specific details of the water cycle. A strictly X uses Y gallons of water, therefore bad, is entirely incomplete to deal with nuances like GP is talking about, where the water ends up. If evaporation and wind up to the Sierra means 90% comes right back down as groundwater, that net usage is an order of magnitude less, and some other area is still benefiting from more water.

Re:America Is Using Up Its Groundwater Like There’s No Tomorrow by ProfessorLayton on Tuesday August 29, 2023 @03:15PM (#37312468)
Taking water out of the ground compacts the soil and that means water cannot come "right back down as groundwater" in anything resembling a human timescale.
Re:America Is Using Up Its Groundwater Like There’s No Tomorrow by PaulDavisThe1st on Tuesday August 29, 2023 @10:42PM (#37317035)
If you zoom out far enough, there's a single amount of water on the planet that never changes.

Zoom in a little bit, and that single amount of water is unevenly distributed but still part of a cycle that is global in scale.

Zoom in a bit more, and it's extremely unevenly distributed and a part of regional cycles in which it is relocated in the short term but restricted in the long term.

Zoom in a bit more, and it's extremely unevenly distributed and a part of local cycles, where it never leaves a watershed (for example).

Which zoom level(s) you choose depends on your purpose and your agenda.

Re:America Is Using Up Its Groundwater Like There’s No Tomorrow by myshpa on Tuesday August 29, 2023 @12:16PM (#37310102)
I agree with you that meat consumption is a menace, but please don't put almonds (or any trees) at the same level as cattle.

Alfalfa consumes 10-20x more water than almonds.

Alfalfa is used for animal feed, is using fertilizers, pesticides, herbicides, animal ag produces methane and causes water pollution and oceanic dead zones, is a source of zoonotic diseases, consumes a lot of antibiotics ...

None of that is true with almonds and pistachios, as both crops could replace milk and dairy, and they produce proteins and fats that can feed the population sustainably.

I understand that growing almond monocultures in a desert may be a stupid idea, but remove animal ag. water usage and you will have water problems no more.

Change those almond monocultures (and alfalfa fields) to diverse food forest, and you may reverse desertification and increase precipitation in that area.

Re:America Is Using Up Its Groundwater Like There’s No Tomorrow by pragmatic on Tuesday August 29, 2023 @03:08PM (#37312396)
Alfalfa can be grown on dry land. You just won’t get as many cuttings. It grows in the upper Midwest just fine without irrigation.

> Pasture requires more water

I’m not sure where you’re getting that information?

It’s not a common practice to irrigate pasture. Animals are watered from “dug outs”, wells or rural water programs which draw water from rivers like the Missouri.