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Re:Kellogg’s is going to war over Mexico’s nutrition label r... by shoo on Thursday August 24, 2023 @05:10AM (#37246639)
Go Mexico! Unregulated markets often don't produce great outcomes for society. Regulate them for the public good.

I live in Australia, this reminds me of our tobacco plain packaging legislation [1]. A post implementation review was conducted a few years afterward [2]. Some interesting bits from the PIR conclusion:

> Applying the government’s RBM framework, the regulatory burden was estimated as $73.87 million across the entire industry (including manufacturers, importers, wholesalers and retailers).

> While it was not possible to complete a full Cost Benefit Analysis for this PIR (due to the limitations on the data available at this time and provided by industry), potential monetised benefits were also analysed including an illustrative example of health benefits. That example estimated that a 0.07 percentage point drop in smoking prevalence would be equivalent to $273 million in monetised health benefits

> Dr Chipty’s modelling also estimated a 0.55 percentage point drop in smoking prevalence in Australia, over 34 months following implementation, attributable to the 2012 packaging changes. This strong result, that is “likely understated”, is expected to grow into the future as the full effects of the 2012 packaging changes are realised over the longer term

So, within 3 years after the introduction of packaging changes, smoking prevalence throughout the population had dropped by at least half a percent (approx 100k people). It cost the tobacco industry less than $100m in one-off transitional costs, and it's estimated to have more than $2b in monetised health benefits over that three year period alone.

It also cost tobacco industry lost revenues & profits, but hey, that's their problem, maybe they can find a different business to invest in.

[1] https://www.health.gov.au/topics/smoking-and-tobacco/tobacco... [2] https://oia.pmc.gov.au/sites/default/files/posts/2016/02/Tob...

Re:Kellogg’s is going to war over Mexico’s nutrition label r... by louthy on Thursday August 24, 2023 @05:33AM (#37246804)
> While it was not possible to complete a full Cost Benefit Analysis for this PIR (due to the limitations on the data available at this time and provided by industry), potential monetised benefits were also analysed including an illustrative example of health benefits. That example estimated that a 0.07 percentage point drop in smoking prevalence would be equivalent to $273 million in monetised health benefits

I wonder whether they take into account the long-term cost of people - who quit or don't smoke because of this legislation - becoming more of a burden on the social systems because of extended life? Things like this always remind me of the 'Smoke Screen' episode from Yes, Prime Minister [1]

[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wsqTz4zg8Xk

Re:Kellogg’s is going to war over Mexico’s nutrition label r... by dna_polymerase on Thursday August 24, 2023 @06:32AM (#37247207)
I don't know why this comment got downvoted, I find this to be an important discussion. The solution can't be to kill old people, or to reduce the population in any way, but to bring cost down on other fronts. The follow-up questions would read something like: How can we increase active life span on a population level? How do we tackle sicknesses of elderly people? How can we make health-care cheaper? ...
Re:Kellogg’s is going to war over Mexico’s nutrition label r... by jeppester on Thursday August 24, 2023 @06:39AM (#37247255)
I believe smokers generally become a burden on social systems a few years earlier than nonsmokers, and so have fewer years where they are a benefit.

I can't see how that could potentially be a net positive for society.

Re:Kellogg’s is going to war over Mexico’s nutrition label r... by unmole on Thursday August 24, 2023 @07:10AM (#37247472)
> I believe smokers generally become a burden on social systems a few years earlier than nonsmokers, and so have fewer years where they are a benefit.

The vast majority of smokers remain productive until they retire but they have lower lifespans. Also take into account that nicotine suppresses appetite and smokers are less likely to be overweight.

Re:Kellogg’s is going to war over Mexico’s nutrition label r... by duckmysick on Thursday August 24, 2023 @07:36AM (#37247656)
Apparently, smokers take more sick leave days than non-smokers.

From the same report linked in this comment chain, page 53:

> As another example, the Analysis of Costs & Benefits also considers potential gains to productivity. There is sufficient evidence both in Australia and internationally to conclude that smokers take more sick leave than non-smokers. There are also academic reports that estimate the level of excess absenteeism attributable to smoking. Using these sources, and others, the Analysis of Costs & Benefits estimated productivity gains that would be realised where the tobacco plain packaging measure prevents initiation of smoking or increases the number of smokers who quit. The estimated value per working smoker avoided is $337.48 per year and the value of increased productivity per working quitter is estimated at $84.37 per year.

The report doesn't cite those studies, but here's one from Sweden:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2598486/

> Smoking was found to increase the annual number of days of absence by 10.7 compared with never smoking. Controlling for risk factors at work, and thereby accounting for some of the selection of smokers into riskier jobs, reduced the effect to 9.7 days, corresponding to 38% of all annual absences due to sickness. Moreover, controlling for health status further reduced the effect of smoking to 7.7 days. The effect of smoking on sick leave was similar for men and women.

and another from Taiwan:

https://tobaccocontrol.bmj.com/content/14/suppl_1/i33

> Using a conservative estimate of excess absenteeism from work, male smokers took off an average of 4.36 sick days and male non-smokers took off an average of 3.30 sick days. Female smokers took off an average of 4.96 sick days and non-smoking females took off an average of 3.75 sick days.

As a side note, the stark difference between those two countries in excess sick leave is the average annual days of sick leave: 25.2 in Sweden, 3.9 in Taiwan.

Re:Kellogg’s is going to war over Mexico’s nutrition label r... by unmole on Thursday August 24, 2023 @08:07AM (#37247858)
> Apparently, smokers take more sick leave days than non-smokers.

Sure. Smokers also probably take more breaks at work when they do show up. But that isn't the same as becoming a burden on society as the OP claimed.

Re:Kellogg’s is going to war over Mexico’s nutrition label r... by duckmysick on Thursday August 24, 2023 @11:33AM (#37250029)
I was replying to a comment about smokers' productivity, which was mentioned for some reason.
Re:Kellogg’s is going to war over Mexico’s nutrition label r... by em-bee on Thursday August 24, 2023 @07:14AM (#37247500)
i found a german article that looks at both sides. the argument appears to be that everyone has health problems in old age that cost money. smokers die earlier so they benefit less from pensions, and the taxes from selling cigarettes make up for the cost of the smokers treatments.
Re:Kellogg’s is going to war over Mexico’s nutrition label r... by 2Gkashmiri on Thursday August 24, 2023 @05:36AM (#37246833)
https://pib.gov.in/PressReleaseIframePage.aspx?PRID=1846046

look at this indian governmental press release mandating photos to be posted on tobacco packs

Re:Kellogg’s is going to war over Mexico’s nutrition label r... by mfru on Thursday August 24, 2023 @06:26AM (#37247175)
this was disgusting, a content warning would have been appreciated
Re:Kellogg’s is going to war over Mexico’s nutrition label r... by 2Gkashmiri on Thursday August 24, 2023 @06:43AM (#37247294)
sorry..... the shock factor is what is supposed to disuade potential smokers and smokers for giving up smoking
Re:Kellogg’s is going to war over Mexico’s nutrition label r... by shoo on Thursday August 24, 2023 @06:49AM (#37247327)
this is pretty close to what regulated tobacco packaging has looked like in australia for the last decade. a giant message with a health warning ("SMOKING HARMS UNBORN BABIES") paired with an often gross / confronting photo of the corresponding health outcome.
Re:Kellogg’s is going to war over Mexico’s nutrition label r... by t90fan on Thursday August 24, 2023 @12:00PM (#37250467)
similar to what we have had in the UK for a good while too, there is one with a sad limp looking cigarette and SMOKING CAUSES IMPOTENCE which I find very effective, more so than the ones of tumours even.
Re:Kellogg’s is going to war over Mexico’s nutrition label r... by aleph_minus_one on Thursday August 24, 2023 @06:50AM (#37247332)
There actually do exist smokers who because of these pictures attempt to collect cigarette packs with all of these ugly pictures like children do for collectible stickers. :-)
Re:Kellogg’s is going to war over Mexico’s nutrition label r... by catboybotnet on Thursday August 24, 2023 @08:05AM (#37247850)
Always on the lookout for a Bryan, that's how I know I'm lucky that day :)
Re:Kellogg’s is going to war over Mexico’s nutrition label r... by bitshiftfaced on Thursday August 24, 2023 @09:54AM (#37248795)
Morbid thought, but I wonder if, given enough time, this might cause people to start to associate positive feelings with these gory images through some kind of Skinnerian mechanism.
Re:Kellogg’s is going to war over Mexico’s nutrition label r... by refurb on Thursday August 24, 2023 @05:32AM (#37246793)
Isn’t tobacco use trending down anyways? How could you possibly tease out the drop in tobacco use from one change to packaging?

This reminds me of the analysis I’ve seen for marketing campaigns.

Re:Kellogg’s is going to war over Mexico’s nutrition label r... by kllvql on Thursday August 24, 2023 @05:52AM (#37246945)
One way people try to tease out those differences is through methods like "Difference in Differences"[1] which try to estimate causal relationships from observational data. These methods are used in marketing analysis as well.

In my experience, it is easy to break one of the many assumptions inherent in methods like Diff-in-diff. Because of this I have little trust in these techniques in general.

[1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Difference_in_differences

Re:Kellogg’s is going to war over Mexico’s nutrition label r... by rmm on Thursday August 24, 2023 @05:53AM (#37246950)
This. Smoking was going downhill anyway
Re:Kellogg’s is going to war over Mexico’s nutrition label r... by pdpi on Thursday August 24, 2023 @06:09AM (#37247042)
Until vapes came along, anyway. I really don't understand what happened there.
Re:Kellogg’s is going to war over Mexico’s nutrition label r... by refurb on Thursday August 24, 2023 @10:57AM (#37249531)
Vapes isn’t smoking. The UK promotes vaping as a way to stop smoking.
Re:Kellogg’s is going to war over Mexico’s nutrition label r... by throwawaylinux on Thursday August 24, 2023 @05:58AM (#37246973)
> Isn’t tobacco use trending down anyways? How could you possibly tease out the drop in tobacco use from one change to packaging?

Anything in the real world has many many factors affecting its consumption. What would it matter if it was trending down specifically? Or are you asking what models and statistical tools they use to make analyses like this when there are a complex set of factors at play?

Re:Kellogg’s is going to war over Mexico’s nutrition label r... by refurb on Thursday August 24, 2023 @10:58AM (#37249555)
Id love to see the confidence intervals on that 0.55% impact (p=0.5, -0.3, 1.3).
Re:Kellogg’s is going to war over Mexico’s nutrition label r... by FirmwareBurner on Thursday August 24, 2023 @06:12AM (#37247072)
>Isn’t tobacco use trending down anyways?

Depends where you live. Visiting the US I don't remember ever seeing anyone smoking, but in Europe it's huge, especially in centra/southern/eastern Europe, including the Balkans where coffee and cigarettes are the staple of any nutritious breakfast.

I see plenty of teenagers smoking, plus on outdoor terraces and outside of offices, clubs, bars, even the balconies in my building, it's full of smokers.

Europe is a few decades behind the US on giving up smoking.

Re:Kellogg’s is going to war over Mexico’s nutrition label r... by em-bee on Thursday August 24, 2023 @06:23AM (#37247157)
it was somewhat of a surprise for me, visiting europe after many years, how many people still smoke there compared to what i saw in asia and africa.
Re:Kellogg’s is going to war over Mexico’s nutrition label r... by FirmwareBurner on Thursday August 24, 2023 @06:28AM (#37247187)
I think it's still has to do with social circle cliques and coolness factor from a young age and wanting to fit in.

I think a lot of people, non smokers mostly, don't see all the bonding, networking, flirting, and general socializing that happens when smokers get together for a fag, which probably explains why this unhealthy habit is still very popular today in many countries. I know many people who met their SOs at smoking breaks or found out about new yet unpublished job opportunities from the chit-chat that happens at smoking breaks.

There's something about the smoking break gatherings, from a social aspect, that can't be replicated at other kind of gathering such as water-cooler.

Re:Kellogg’s is going to war over Mexico’s nutrition label r... by tetris11 on Thursday August 24, 2023 @06:44AM (#37247295)
Also: given the sheer cost of cigarettes in Europe, it's becoming a slight status symbol, even more so if you share your cigarettes.
Re:Kellogg’s is going to war over Mexico’s nutrition label r... by FirmwareBurner on Thursday August 24, 2023 @06:47AM (#37247317)
Meh, even people on unemployment smoke like chimneys in Europe, because even in high-CoL countries you can buy tobacco in bulk, papers and filters and roll your own cigarettes.

You don't need to be wealthy to smoke a lot, just bad with finances.

Re:Kellogg’s is going to war over Mexico’s nutrition label r... by gumby on Friday August 25, 2023 @08:18AM (#37260843)
> Visiting the US I don't remember ever seeing anyone smoking

That’s probably because the places where people do smoke are less likely to be visited by tourists.

Re:Kellogg’s is going to war over Mexico’s nutrition label r... by WeylandYutani on Thursday August 24, 2023 @06:16AM (#37247115)
Tobacco companies are shifting to emerging markets. India, Indonesia.
Re:Kellogg’s is going to war over Mexico’s nutrition label r... by newaccount74 on Thursday August 24, 2023 @06:59AM (#37247396)
Tobacco use is going down, but it's not happening on its own.

It's going down because of many measures that have been implemented:

- restriction of billboard advertising

- restriction of tobacco ads in film and tv

- warnings on packaging

- photos on packaging

- banning smoking in public buildings

- banning smoking in restaurants

- banning smoking in public transportation

- banning smoking near entrances

- age restrictions on buying cigarettes

- banning of automatic vending machines

etc.

Each of those have a small effect, but in total the effect is large. It's hard to measure the effectiveness of individual measures, but in aggregate it's clear that these measures significantly reduce smoking. Especially if you compare countries where these measures have not been implemented yet with countries where they were implemented sooner.

Re:Kellogg’s is going to war over Mexico’s nutrition label r... by yreg on Thursday August 24, 2023 @07:36AM (#37247662)
It could be happening on it's own as well though. We have all of these restrictions here in Europe and yet double the people smoke than in US.
Re:Kellogg’s is going to war over Mexico’s nutrition label r... by newaccount74 on Thursday August 24, 2023 @07:48AM (#37247728)
I think it just takes time. I live in Austria, and some of these measures were only introduced 5 years ago, some are still not implemented.

People don't give up smoking overnight, the 20 year lead the US has over these measures is not something we can expect to catch up... Smoking is going down, slowly, and I think it's because of all these measures.

Re:Kellogg’s is going to war over Mexico’s nutrition label r... by jacknews on Thursday August 24, 2023 @11:46AM (#37250245)
In my anecdotal experience, it's simply no longer cool to smoke, at all, in fact very much the opposite.

I smoked for about 10 years between the mid 80s and 90s. When I started, most of the 'cool', 'sophisticated' etc people seemed to smoke. When I stopped, it was mostly a health choice, but partly because it seemed no longer 'cool', everyone I knew had given up or was trying to.

I can't even fathom why anyone would start smoking now, it seems like an affliction of the poor and/or the old rather than anything sophisticated.

All of this is mostly a change in fashion, people having a deeper awareness of the health risks, becoming aware of tobacco industry manipulation, etc. No doubt government messaging aided and supported that change, but it is not the only or even the main cause imho.

Re:Kellogg’s is going to war over Mexico’s nutrition label r... by newaccount74 on Thursday August 24, 2023 @02:18PM (#37252613)
> a change in fashion, people having a deeper awareness

Where do you think this change is coming from? When I was a kid, there was a huge billboard right next to my school with a man wearing aviator glasses, an airplane in the background, smoking Memphis cigarettes. That was the coolest guy I've ever seen.

Compare that to 20 years later, there's a photo of a depressed guy on the package and a message "smoking causes infertility".

When I first started at uni, students still smoked in the auditorium. That was cool.

By the time I finished, people who smoked had to go outside and stand in smoking zones like animals. The opposite of cool.

There's a reason why the public perception changed. I don't think the public perception would have changed as drastically without government intervention.

Re:Kellogg’s is going to war over Mexico’s nutrition label r... by refurb on Friday August 25, 2023 @08:10AM (#37260793)
At least in the US, smoking rates were almost cut in half before any of that stuff even happened (48% to 30%).

https://news.gallup.com/poll/237908/smoking-rate-hits-new-lo...

Hell, when I was in high school, you could still smoke at 16.

I'd argue the health risks have become way more know, which drove most of the reduction.

Re:Kellogg’s is going to war over Mexico’s nutrition label r... by jacknews on Saturday August 26, 2023 @02:34AM (#37270369)
I think those things mainly followed, getting a mandate from, the changing fashions; the health-conscious, status and performance oriented 80s, for example, rather than creating it, but I'm sure there's influence both ways.