News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:The way out of burnout (2016) by paulcole on Saturday August 05, 2023 @10:31PM (#37018402)
> Burnout involves the loss of the capacity to relax, to “just do nothing”.

The best thing about these burnout discussions is that everyone just makes up their own definition to fit whatever symptoms they want to talk about.

The WHO has a pretty clear definition that I find a lot more useful.

https://www.who.int/news/item/28-05-2019-burn-out-an-occupat...

Re:The way out of burnout (2016) by jqcoffey on Saturday August 05, 2023 @10:35PM (#37018427)
And here I thought burn out was the inability to do something. Learn something new every day!
Re:The way out of burnout (2016) by ravenstine on Saturday August 05, 2023 @11:06PM (#37018614)
Reminds me of how antisocial behavior today is referred to as "narcissism". Like that, anything dysphoric about work life must be burnout.
Re:The way out of burnout (2016) by unsubstantiated on Saturday August 05, 2023 @11:21PM (#37018688)
The word "narcissism" has been weaponized as a form of slandering whoever you're after. It's closer to a new variant of "creepy," but now with 200% more Science™ behind it.

The word "burnout," hasn't suffered the same unfortunate fate, although there are those of us who are waiting for competition to declare that they have burned out so we can take their share of the profits etc. It's more of a self-inflicted wound.

Re:The way out of burnout (2016) by maxlamb on Sunday August 06, 2023 @12:06AM (#37018900)
Maybe they were referring to antisocial personality disorder, which is very different from anti-social behavior.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisocial_personality_disorde...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-social_behaviour

Re:The way out of burnout (2016) by darkclouds on Saturday August 05, 2023 @11:49PM (#37018830)
" as an occupational phenomenon" "feelings of energy depletion or exhaustion; increased mental distance from one’s job, or feelings of negativism or cynicism related to one's job; and reduced professional efficacy"

Yes it can be occupational, but it can also be applied to home, location, country or life.

When thinking about being burnt out by life, its more commonly known as suicide but not the only reason for suicide.

When thinking about being burnt out by a country, its seen in a variety of ways, like not voting for brexit if you are british and relying on the EU to draw up the legislation, which may or may not be enacted in full. It can be the culture of the country, the way people did/do things because its always been done that way.

When thinking about being burnt out by home life, I think most parents can relate to that, but social conformity means they must maintain a stiff upper lip!

Either way, I take everything people in authority or expertise or both say with a massive pinch of salt. I've seen so much hypocrisy its laughable.

On the point of inability to relax, calcium has a massive stimulatory effect[1]. Sodium (too little or too much) also causes a rise in osteoclasts which release calcium from the bones.[2,3] And there is so much salt in the processed food today (dont think I need to provide links for that), and water hardness is a contributory factor (dont think I need to provide links for that), beit soaking in the bath, having long showers[4], or drinking lots of hot beverages, is it any wonder people cant relax? If you get banged up in a mental health hospital, you wont be eating processed food, so your sodium intake will likely fall, and they probably filter their water so its soft water, to reduce estate maintenance costs.

So yes the WHO has a very narrow definition of burn out, but in the absence of any other definition for the above possible factors, I think the populace apply their own definitions and interpretation of burn out, although needing a holiday could be applied to country/location/home burn out whilst not being recognised as burnt out, like I've described above, mainly because to quote Monty Python "Always look on the bright side of life..."

Also, considering the all encompassing nature of the DSM, I'd have thought they would have had some input on burnout, but it looks like they are still contemplating it as a mental disorder.[5]

"Stemming from a lack of conceptual clarity, the current state of burnout research remains, unfortunately, largely circular and riddled with measurement issues."[5]

[1] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2269601/

[2] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3060537/

[3] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5635092/

[4] https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/15080493/

[5] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8945132/

Re:The way out of burnout (2016) by throwaway154 on Sunday August 06, 2023 @01:18AM (#37019176)
Not voting for Brexit may also be a function of it being a terrible idea.

I fail to see the need to have worked poorly backed political ideologies into an unrelated post unless the intention was to FUD or flame.

Re:The way out of burnout (2016) by antonvs on Sunday August 06, 2023 @03:07AM (#37019625)
I was hoping they meant not voting in the brexit referendum, even though it was important.
Re:The way out of burnout (2016) by darkclouds on Sunday August 06, 2023 @04:33AM (#37020045)
I personally didnt see anything wrong with the idea of brexit in a self deterministic way. You couldnt really hold anyone to account in politics or high up in the echelons of power and brexit shows, nothing has changed. Wasnt bothered about perceived EU savings but it shows how the media manipulate the reader/viewer and sadly there isnt a law for that, just like there isnt any privacy laws that I know of. Not that I've ever been taught law or even privacy, but law seems to be a r/ThereWasAnAttempt and privacy seems to be a construct of the developing ego.
Re:The way out of burnout (2016) by projektfu on Sunday August 06, 2023 @05:52AM (#37020451)
To avoid anyone thinking that calcium or sodium is the cause of their stress, I just want to say that the cell biology you're reading about is about voltage-gated calcium channels, not about relative amounts of calcium in the bloodstream or interstitial fluid. Rather, calcium is used as a messenger to activate processes on the other side of the membrane. In the adrenal medulla, the primary messenger is an axonal depolarization.

In general, there's usually something very pathological going on for calcium to become dysregulated in the bloodstream, such as cancer, hyperparathyroidism, hypervitaminosis D, or hyperphosphatemia.

Sources: any physiology textbook, supplemented with a cell biology textbook.

Re:The way out of burnout (2016) by darkclouds on Sunday August 06, 2023 @11:38AM (#37023087)
I know but its all Google would throw up as any links related.

Hyperphosphatemia is very easy with supermarket cappuccino style beverages as is extremely hard water, and an NHS that fails to act on any diagnosis for several years, even from 3rd party's.

But then I only have to look at the water and food regulations to see the govt is using legislation to create health problems. The perfect GDP boosting circle jerk to the unassuming uneducated person on the street, unless of course big business is influencing or writing the regulations?

Re:The way out of burnout (2016) by fnordpiglet on Sunday August 06, 2023 @01:24AM (#37019202)
I think anyone who has experienced burnout of any severity sees the WHO definition as scoped from the employers point of view only and as a productivity issue. As a human though it extends to all aspects of life. I disagree with the assessment of the article too.

I’ve gone through burnout and mentored a few dozen people going through it. It’s nothing to do with relaxing, or is confined to work. It’s all encompassing, has strong parallels and likely includes depression and an anxiety disorder. It has more of a sense of the inability to initiate anything rather than the inability to do nothing. Everything feels too hard, you feel too old, you see no prosperous future, and you yearn to end everything - not suicide, but to quit work, quit life, and disappear. These sounds like the appropriate mental response to unrelenting and uneasing stress to which you see no way out of. Most people suffering burn out spend an awful lot of time simply doing nothing.

However myself and the folks I’ve worked with as a mentor at work on burnout share the trait we lose the ability to identify things we enjoy - video games, music, travel, etc, lose their redeeming value and they can’t identify what music they like any more or a game they want to play. When they relax, it’s spent ruminating. To that extent maybe the articles point is true.

For me the way out was vipassana meditation and Buddhism. It taught me to master my rumination, detach myself from the stress, and discover the value of simply being rather than being someone or something. I recommend it to most people but only one or two have actually tried it.

Re:The way out of burnout (2016) by irencha on Sunday August 06, 2023 @02:05AM (#37019395)
Your description of burnout is very relatable to my life right now. Thanks.

Do the people you mentor also do Buddhism and meditation? What did they do that helped (or did they just never recover)?

Re:The way out of burnout (2016) by GoToRO on Sunday August 06, 2023 @03:29AM (#37019735)
My view is that if you overwork then your body resources are depleted.

One way to recover is to just do nothing. The resources will start to accumulate back but it'very slow.

One thing that worked for me was multivitamins. I could see a change in a week.

Not sure if it was proper burnout or something else (bad diet) though. The simptoms look the same.

Re:The way out of burnout (2016) by thilog on Sunday August 06, 2023 @12:00PM (#37023304)
It's interesting that you mention multivitamins. When I was burnt out I noticed that Vitamin B, D3 and zinc have a huge positive effect on my mood and energy level.
Re:The way out of burnout (2016) by fnordpiglet on Sunday August 06, 2023 @03:36AM (#37019761)
Only a few do, mostly because Buddhism has a lot of baggage being classified as a religion and being couched in mysticism in popular presentation, but everyone who does finds a lot of value. It’s value is proportional to how much you practice meditation and take it seriously - but not mystically. There’s no magic or life after death or eternal happiness, it’s a very practical guide to being a human being in the way humans actually are rather than how we are taught to live by our society, culture, and instinct.

My suggestion to most is to start with Gil as a teacher -

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gil_Fronsdal

He has an enormous amount of recorded teachings and does a daily mediation at 7am PST on YouTube. I would start with this:

https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLq_lRuaNj50Nm-SRxYPFSTyTt...

Regarding recovery I think most people do, but it does require dramatically changing your lifestyle in some way. You’re there mostly due to how you view life and your situation, as well as the situation. I think no one is ever the same and their limits in life are closer than before. You have to be more gentle with yourself, and more aware of yourself. A lot of vipassana meditation is learning to detach your “self,” or awareness from your thoughts and feelings and sensations and being able to observe them without becoming entangled in them. For instance I feel anxiety in my chest. By letting my thoughts and feelings be as they are but holding the tightness in my chest in awareness without judgement, the tightness eventually dissipates because it never really existed somatically. Concurrently my anxiety does as well, and I can then let the thoughts go as well as they’ve lost their power. It’s taken me two years but at this point I am fully engaged in my life, learning and loving more than I ever have all that life has to offer. I’ve got a great job at a late stage startup and switched from senior leadership roles to distinguished engineer roles.

Good luck man. Find friends too, friends are hard to engage with when burned out, but it is helpful.

Re:The way out of burnout (2016) by klipo on Sunday August 06, 2023 @03:00AM (#37019604)
Wow, this sounds so relatable. I went through most of what you describe, especially it being a mix of depression and anxiety disorder and not being able to identify anything I would enjoy, low energy, not feeling like starting or doing anything. Just wanting to disappear, and feel nothing. I felt loneliness was part of my problem too. The covid situation made me much more isolated than I was admitting at first.

I also found a lot of help in meditation and developing and practicing mindfulness. Recognising thoughts and emotions as they arise and to not identify with them was a big eye opener and relief. Just letting thoughts be or talking about it with someone when I noticed a pattern really helped. I think part of it was also processing some buried away issues.

Re:The way out of burnout (2016) by badpun on Sunday August 06, 2023 @03:20AM (#37019686)
> Everything feels too hard, you feel too old, you see no prosperous future, and you yearn to end everything - not suicide, but to quit work, quit life, and disappear.

I thought it's not burn out, but just getting older and wiser :)

Very few people over say 40-45 year old are chipper and burst with energy and enthusiasm. On the contrary, most of them are in sort of "Aikido mode", when they try to deal with whatever threats and external demands come with minimum amount of energy expended. IMO, it's a combination of just having less energy at that age, and the acquired wisdom that most things that you could be doing, aren't really worth doing.

Re:The way out of burnout (2016) by fnordpiglet on Sunday August 06, 2023 @04:18AM (#37019970)
Burn out feels different than that. It’s more like you’re grinding your gears when shifting and things are slipping. It’s not that you’re not clubbing every night it’s that you can’t conceive of any music you want to listen to and when you listen to music it’s not compelling. This is very similar to depression, but it extends beyond that into anxiety. It’s like you burned your hand and flinch any time you get close to the stove - you hurt so much from what you’ve endured your entire being is flinching from further harm.
Re:The way out of burnout (2016) by systems_glitch on Sunday August 06, 2023 @09:31AM (#37021722)
The best is being ready to rock and roll on something you were brought in to handle and being chained to the starting line.
Re:The way out of burnout (2016) by fnordpiglet on Sunday August 06, 2023 @09:45AM (#37021854)
It’s maddening since I noticed burnout tends to happen at peak career, so added onto everything you are where you aspired to be, but can’t do it, even though you know you could if this weren’t holding you back. I think our career, with impostor syndrome creating huge stress early in the career, pressure to move up mid career, then burnout as you turn that corner. The stress and pressures never really let up, until you learn some way to understand them differently and relate to them in a way that doesn’t hurt you. For me learning to be myself, the inner self that’s simply aware and not striving or desiring, not restlessly unsatisfied with what I’ve not done or should have done differently, or worried about how X pan out, or what Y will say about something, etc etc. Simply trusting myself, my abilities, my passions, and being in each moment as it happens was what meditation taught me and it was what helped me through my burnout.
Re:The way out of burnout (2016) by systems_glitch on Sunday August 06, 2023 @12:12PM (#37023432)
Sound advice, and yeah, I'm pretty sure burnout is built into the current landscape. I can't imagine it's intentional since I can't figure out how it would ever lead to greater profitability. W.R.T. most tech culture, I often tell other folks, you are the fuel or you are the fireman. Current structure and goals don't seem to really optimize for any other arrangement.
Re:The way out of burnout (2016) by geswit2x on Sunday August 06, 2023 @05:34AM (#37020351)
wow, accurate, I can explain better, even as I went through all these points, point by point.
Re:The way out of burnout (2016) by ajmurmann on Friday August 11, 2023 @01:14AM (#37085336)
How do you differentiate between burnout and depression? What you are describing sounds a lot what I thought of as depression.
Re:The way out of burnout (2016) by TeMPOraL on Sunday August 06, 2023 @04:48AM (#37020130)
>> Burnout involves the loss of the capacity to relax, to “just do nothing”.

What I find funny about this is that it would imply I've been burned out since I was 10 or 12 years old. "Just do nothing" was something I never considered possible for me, or desirable in general. For me the struggle was, and is, always about autonomy - being able to do what I want, instead of chores, homework, demands of parents, $dayjob, errands, demands of partner, etc.

Re:The way out of burnout (2016) by xyzzy123 on Sunday August 06, 2023 @04:56AM (#37020164)
There are days when I feel like a robot - I have almost no agency from morning until night. It really drags me down when it goes on for more than a few days consecutively.

It's weird because my job is OK and I love my kids, and it's not that bad - I just feel like an NPC doing this day after day and want to "jump off the rails".

Sometimes the only thing I can fall back on is that even if I can't choose what I'm doing I get to choose how I'm doing it.

Re:The way out of burnout (2016) by Tade0 on Sunday August 06, 2023 @07:35AM (#37020917)
I was in this state for the first few months after my child was born.

I remember one internal dialogue from that time:

-She woke up already. I barely had half an hour today to do something else than cleaning and that's only because I skipped some tasks. Where's my time off?

-What do you mean where's your time off? This was your time off.

It got better when I let go of my mid 30s childless person presumption of having time after work.

Also it got better because my daughter is now two and a half and can focus on an activity for the 114 seconds at worst it takes me to use the toilet.

Re:The way out of burnout (2016) by pmoriarty on Sunday August 06, 2023 @07:37AM (#37020932)
The vast majority of employees get paid to do something they would rather not do, had they a choice.

They would rather be entertaining themselves, being with their families, relaxing, etc.

Yet they have to work, and do things they don't want to do day after day, month after month, and year after year. On top of that they often have to pretend to like it, and to spend time with people they don't want to be with.

It's even worse if they have to commute or not get enough sleep, or if they're not valued at work or don't feel they can make a difference.

After a while, that takes its toll. Some can handle it, but some can't.