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Re:The Coming Enshittification of Public Libraries by snowwrestler on Friday August 04, 2023 @09:16AM (#36999585)
IMO it seems like an immature name for an immature way of thinking about the world.

Yes, companies would like to make more money for doing the same work or less. So would everyone. Would you like a raise every year, even if you’re the same person doing the same job? Would you like to have passive income so you don’t have to work so hard?

It explains why some things get worse over short or long periods of time, but is not great at explaining why so many things get better over time. Like if I held mobile phones from 2003 and 2023 and said “you can buy either for $600,” for most folks it would be a no-brainer. How did mobile phones, a huge market with huge investment, avoid “enshittification”?

Now I know that Cory’s writing is more sophisticated than what I’m saying. But most folks who throw the term around (like this blog post) are not. It’s become a broad label for anything some people don’t like, like “late stage capitalism” or “woke.”

App changes interface slightly: “enshittification!!”

The original essay was interesting. The broad application of the term, I am finding tiresome.

Re:The Coming Enshittification of Public Libraries by everdrive on Friday August 04, 2023 @09:36AM (#36999834)
>How did mobile phones, a huge market with huge investment, avoid “enshittification”?

They didn’t. They spy on you more and more to extract more value from you after purchase. They have non-replaceable batteries and screens, which means you can’t service them easily. They are worse at being phones than plastic Nokias 20 years ago. Companies are incentivized to create apps which are trapped in the phone’s walled gardens rather than creating webpages which anyone can access. The list goes on.

Re:The Coming Enshittification of Public Libraries by TylerE on Friday August 04, 2023 @10:17AM (#37000413)
This is the sort of missing the forest trees people are talked by about.

People don’t care about replaceable batteries and voice calls. They want the magic also won’t pocket oracle to just work with a minimum of gaffing about.

You have to make reach people on what THEY care about, not preach to them about what they should care about. (And yes, I’m self-aware enough to see the inherent irony of this comment.)

Re:The Coming Enshittification of Public Libraries by Karunamon on Friday August 04, 2023 @10:32AM (#37000616)
Marketing and industry trends play a part in this. There is a big difference between "nobody cares about X at all" and "nobody cares about X enough, in isolation, to base their entire purchasing decision on it"

For instance, Apple tends to drive how mobile phones look and what external features they have even if their changes are objective steps backwards in functionality. People generally liked headphone jacks, but not enough to cut themselves off from flagship devices. There is no way to make an apples-to-apples comparison since usually there are never two devices whose literal only difference is the specific feature under discussion.

Re:The Coming Enshittification of Public Libraries by TylerE on Friday August 04, 2023 @11:00AM (#37000946)
The liked headphone jacks. Now they like IP68 and Bluetooth.
Re:The Coming Enshittification of Public Libraries by Karunamon on Saturday August 05, 2023 @09:08AM (#37011656)
These are not mutually exclusive.
Re:The Coming Enshittification of Public Libraries by thaumasiotes on Friday August 04, 2023 @10:53AM (#37000868)
> They want the magic also won’t pocket oracle to just work

What was this supposed to say?

Re:The Coming Enshittification of Public Libraries by crazygringo on Friday August 04, 2023 @10:43AM (#37000754)
Pretty sure my iPhone isn't spying on me so Apple can extract more value.

And the first-gen iPhone didn't have a replaceable battery or screen either.

As far as I can tell, iPhones have only gotten better. And ever since Apple introduced the SE, they've become more affordable as well.

It's way better at being a phone than an old Nokia as well -- the convenience and sound quality of wireless earbuds, using higher-quality audio and background noise removal, is really something.

Re:The Coming Enshittification of Public Libraries by flyinghamster on Friday August 04, 2023 @11:14AM (#37001158)
I sometimes use my Sony noise-cancelling headphones for calls, and the sound quality is amazing. BUT: Bluetooth lag makes music-making apps unworkable.
Re:The Coming Enshittification of Public Libraries by crazygringo on Friday August 04, 2023 @11:37AM (#37001481)
Well sure, that's what Lightning port adapters are for. Which allow you to connect both traditional analog devices as well as USB digital audio.
Re:The Coming Enshittification of Public Libraries by orbz on Friday August 04, 2023 @11:30AM (#37001378)
I miss the days where I could forget to charge my plastic nokia for 5 days, drop it out a 3rd story window onto concrete and have it run over by a car and there _might_ be a scratch on it while I T9'd out a message without looking. On the other hand I can wear a watch that could out-compete a desktop computer I had in the 90's.
Re:The Coming Enshittification of Public Libraries by ImPostingOnHN on Friday August 04, 2023 @02:27PM (#37003860)
You can get an original, working Nokia 3310 for tens of dollars
Re:The Coming Enshittification of Public Libraries by mcphage on Friday August 04, 2023 @09:38AM (#36999860)
> How did mobile phones, a huge market with huge investment, avoid “enshittification”?

Well, based on Docorow's term, it's because there wasn't a 2 way market. Instead of phone manufacturers playing 2 sides off each other, it was a a much simpler arrangement: manufacturers sell phones to consumers, and there are enough manufacturers that they can't get entirely complacent.

Perhaps in the early days, when manufacturers acted as an intermediary between the carriers and consumers, that was more prone to enshittification. And phones in those days were pretty stagnant, looking for new ways to grab a couple of bucks (remember when they charged for ringtones? Or wildly overcharged for SMS messages?). Phones becoming unlocked, and phones rapidly improving in abilities and price did happen roughly around the same time, but perhaps that's unrelated to enshittification.

Re:The Coming Enshittification of Public Libraries by snowwrestler on Friday August 04, 2023 @10:17AM (#37000411)
Thank you for a thoughtful answer!
Re:The Coming Enshittification of Public Libraries by mcphage on Saturday August 05, 2023 @09:18PM (#37017994)
You’re welcome :-)
Re:The Coming Enshittification of Public Libraries by uoaei on Friday August 04, 2023 @09:25AM (#36999702)
Equivocating companies and people is a big reason why things are getting shittier for people and better for companies in the first place.

Do you have any friends who are companies?

Re:The Coming Enshittification of Public Libraries by snowwrestler on Friday August 04, 2023 @09:35AM (#36999822)
Who do you think start and run companies?
Re:The Coming Enshittification of Public Libraries by brodouevencode on Friday August 04, 2023 @09:40AM (#36999893)
Companies are an abstraction of the people that run them, invest in them, and work for them.
Re:The Coming Enshittification of Public Libraries by vel0city on Friday August 04, 2023 @10:36AM (#37000668)
Yeah but companies aren't thinking entities themselves; they decisions "a company" makes is just the decisions of the leadership (a group of people) of the company. The end results are then the actions carried out by the people of that company following the decisions of the leadership.

Its all people, all the way down.

Re:The Coming Enshittification of Public Libraries by yellowapple on Friday August 04, 2023 @02:40PM (#37004039)
> Yeah but companies aren't thinking entities themselves

They don't need to be. They are automata with emergent behavior independent from the individual humans comprising them - paperclip maximizers in a very literal sense. The overly-simplistic "corporate decisions are just human decisions" take entirely ignores corporate policies, material interests, and countless other drivers of corporate decisionmaking with zero dependence on any particular actual human.

Re:The Coming Enshittification of Public Libraries by vel0city on Friday August 04, 2023 @03:20PM (#37004589)
> corporate policies, material interests, and countless other drivers of corporate decisionmaking

And those policies came from...?

And those material interests relate to...?

...the ether? Jesus Christ? The "Invisible Hand"? The void?

Those policies were written by people at the direction of people to be given to people to do because some people are interested in achieving that goal.

Re:The Coming Enshittification of Public Libraries by yellowapple on Friday August 04, 2023 @07:14PM (#37007092)
> Those policies were written by people at the direction of people to be given to people to do because some people are interested in achieving that goal.

And those policies continue to be in effect long after any of their authors or beneficiaries have left or otherwise ceased to be authors or beneficiaries - as highlighted in the part of my comment immediately following that which you quoted.

People being involved at one point says nothing about their continued involvement or about the eventual autonomy of the thing with which they were once involved - just like how any person's decisionmaking is independent from that of one's constituent cells, and from one's parents and their constituent cells. The interests of the creation can and do diverge from the interests of the creators.

Re:The Coming Enshittification of Public Libraries by uoaei on Saturday August 05, 2023 @06:19AM (#37010644)
Companies inherit quasi-cognitive abilities not merely from the people they make up, but the structures of their interactions, particularly power structures. This creates something emergent that wasn't there before.

Your argument is like saying "we've already solved biology -- it's physics all the way down!" Except, it's not. The information-processing and entropy-generating capacities of biological organisms surpasses those that would be expected from a purely physical perspective.

Re:The Coming Enshittification of Public Libraries by mindslight on Friday August 04, 2023 @03:16PM (#37004524)
This is like explaining a whole person's behavior by focusing on the behavior of individual brain cells. In reality, there is emergent behavior between those two levels of complexity that means the behavior of the organism is different than the behavior of its parts.

Specifically in the case of companies, they're generally deliberately organized such that specific humans in the leadership/ownership are not individually responsible for decisions, otherwise it would be easier to pierce the corporate veil. Hence diffuse responsibility, meetings and meeting minutes, reams of pages justifying decisions, etc - what we commonly know as "bureaucracy", with a life of its own. Each human-reasoning-unit only focuses on some very small part of the company's behavior, adds their own personal incentives to not rock the boat, and then rolls the shit downhill.

So no, it doesn't sense to pigeonhole company behavior as just "human behavior", especially when individual humans in the system often would very much like to choose differently, but for all the incentives lined up against them.

Re:The Coming Enshittification of Public Libraries by ImPostingOnHN on Friday August 04, 2023 @02:28PM (#37003873)
gasoline starts and runs engines, yet gasoline != engines