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Re:I feel hopeless, rejected, and a burden on society-one we... by navjack27 on Sunday July 30, 2023 @12:53PM (#36933185)
The biggest disability I wish people would explore in their accessibility is issues with impulse control. So much of the web is designed to keep us hooked and I firmly believe that people that have issues with impulse control have a good handle on the obvious stuff moreso than people who don't because we are aware of the concept of choice more.

But what about when it's your credit account that is sabotaging you by design? Can't cancel the account unless you call a phone number and talk to somebody. But if you want to increase your credit limit, you can just click a button on the website and validate how much you make a year and boom, you have a $7000 limit when you get $900 a month.

So if you have a phone phobia and an issue with impulse control and you maybe stress spend, you now have a system totally against you by design.

It's great to explore the world as someone with visible disabilities. Also do so with neurodivergence.

Re:I feel hopeless, rejected, and a burden on society-one we... by sergioisidoro on Sunday July 30, 2023 @12:59PM (#36933269)
I'm skeptical about calling it a disability, because a lot of these mechanisms and dark patterns are made to prey on everyone's nature.

Some people may more susceptible to those stimuli, but I don't see it a disability, but as natural neurodiversity.

These are plainly predatory and unethical marketing practices, for everyone!

Re:I feel hopeless, rejected, and a burden on society-one we... by Retric on Sunday July 30, 2023 @01:12PM (#36933425)
Pay to win video games really are ultimately targeting a small demographic as a tiny percentage of the audience results in the majority of their income.

The thing is they don’t know who specifically is vulnerable ahead of time, so they cast a wide net.

Re:I feel hopeless, rejected, and a burden on society-one we... by coldtea on Sunday July 30, 2023 @02:12PM (#36934210)
Neurodiversity is a nicer sounding term, to mask the fact that underneath there are certain life affecting disabilities - often severely life affecting (if it was just harmless "natural neurodiversity", it wouldn't translate to reduced life expectancy. Not to mention millions of cases which need constant assistance to make it througn everyday life).

That it also targets "everyone's nature" doesn't mean it's not a bigger issue for people with certain neurodiversities affecting impulse control more. Same way a badly maintained road might also inconvenience a perfectly abled walker, but it is far more burdensome to a disabled person.

Re:I feel hopeless, rejected, and a burden on society-one we... by adroniser on Sunday July 30, 2023 @02:42PM (#36934535)
The reason for the low life expectancy of autism for instance is suicide.
Re:I feel hopeless, rejected, and a burden on society-one we... by coldtea on Sunday July 30, 2023 @03:41PM (#36935122)
It's lower even accounting for suicide already.

There are lots of other issues, like losing supporting parents and family, lack of a support network of friends, lack of job opportunities and bad work careers, issues with pursuing healthcare and maintaining health and lack of access to healthcare, and so on.

Re:I feel hopeless, rejected, and a burden on society-one we... by adroniser on Sunday July 30, 2023 @04:30PM (#36935629)
These are all systemic issues though are they not? You could make all of these same arguments about gay people back in the 80s. Yes even the healthcare one. That doesn't mean that being gay isn't a natural variation in sexual orientation just as being autistic is a natural variation in brain structure.
Re:I feel hopeless, rejected, and a burden on society-one we... by coldtea on Sunday July 30, 2023 @06:53PM (#36936851)
>These are all systemic issues though are they not?

Only in the sense that the system doesn't provide extra accomondations. Not in the sense of active purposeful systemic opression (unlike say with blacks or gays).

>That doesn't mean that being gay isn't a natural variation in sexual orientation just as being autistic is a natural variation in brain structure.

I wouldn't say it's "just as". Being gay doesn'r bring any special impairement in sensory processing, social understanding, proprioception, speech, and so on. It only affects individuals because of morality / prejudice.

Whereas being autistic, especially of high support needs, means major sensitivity issues, issues with communication, problems coping with changes to routine, sometimes even inability to speak at all, meltdowns, and other issues, which impact the person, and need to be catered and attended, and even when perfectly catered, still cause issues (a school or office can accomondate for sensory issues, but we can't remove noise and light and other sensations from the world).

Saying it's a "natural variation" begs the question.

Re:I feel hopeless, rejected, and a burden on society-one we... by AndrewKemendo on Sunday July 30, 2023 @10:01PM (#36938053)
Well said. I’d go further and say the modern world is only comfortable for a particular subset of neurodivergent people

Namely ones who are content to be sedentary and work on explicitly abstract or highly derived concepts (mathematics, accounting, computing etc).

That’s a novel context even in near history, saying nothing of how far away our nearly unchanged pre-modern biology is from being comfortable in such a context

Re:I feel hopeless, rejected, and a burden on society-one we... by coldtea on Monday July 31, 2023 @04:37AM (#36940094)
That's a good point regarding the particular subset being more expected/accepted/integrated.

If you're asd and want to work in math or programming or something similar, it's much smoother sailing than in you want to work in many other professions that aren't abstract/sedentary. Much worse if you'd like to work in a highly social profession like advertising or journalism (or even academia in today's climate where it's mostly about how good you're at self-promotion and networking).

Re:I feel hopeless, rejected, and a burden on society-one we... by adroniser on Monday July 31, 2023 @04:24AM (#36940018)
I think you're probably right and I've misread your intention (autism lol). I agree with you that yes being autistic is a disability in the modern world due to a lack of accommodations.

My perception of the word neurodivergent is that firstly the vast majority of people who use the word use it with an often first-hand awareness of the disabling aspects of conditions like adhd or autism, but with a view towards self acceptance. The people using the word are often painfully aware of the downsides of their disability, but equally can see the upshots.

If we were in a world populated by 99% autistic people, neurotypical people would be called overly emotional, lower cognitive function, inability to think abstractly, inability to focus for long periods of time.

The point is you can acknowledge the need for accommodations while simultaneously acknowledging that it's not so much something inherently "wrong" with you, rather something wrong with you existing in a neurotypical world.

Re:I feel hopeless, rejected, and a burden on society-one we... by coldtea on Monday July 31, 2023 @04:40AM (#36940105)
Yeah, understanding the disabling aspects shouldn't prevent self-acceptance. Even more so, shouldn't prevent social acceptance. Yet, physical disabilities get much more respect and acceptance.
Re:I feel hopeless, rejected, and a burden on society-one we... by JohnBooty on Monday July 31, 2023 @01:09AM (#36939018)

    These are all systemic issues though 
    are they not? You could make all of 
    these same arguments about gay people 
    back in the 80s.
I don't think so. Some but not all.

There's nothing inherent about being gay that prevents healthy mutual interpersonal relationships.

Many people on the autism spectrum have wonderful and fulfilling interpersonal relationships (I suspect I am one of these, in fact) but autism can negatively affect many of the building blocks (empathy, etc) of interpersonal relationships.

Re:I feel hopeless, rejected, and a burden on society-one we... by concordDance on Monday July 31, 2023 @03:46AM (#36939791)
Re:I feel hopeless, rejected, and a burden on society-one we... by adroniser on Monday July 31, 2023 @04:30AM (#36940063)
Yeah there's comorbidities, the only two of which are significant enough for the literature to note in this context is epilepsy and mental illness. Epilepsy does not account for most early death in level 1 ASD.
Re:I feel hopeless, rejected, and a burden on society-one we... by concordDance on Monday July 31, 2023 @07:44AM (#36941210)
Got some numbers or a cite in this?
Re:I feel hopeless, rejected, and a burden on society-one we... by adroniser on Monday July 31, 2023 @08:28AM (#36941596)
I don't actually but i've heard it said by a fair few experts in autism and such as being one of the big things they focus on as it is the main reason for early mortality.
Re:I feel hopeless, rejected, and a burden on society-one we... by dragonwriter on Sunday July 30, 2023 @02:18PM (#36934282)
> if it was just harmless “natural neurodiversity”, it wouldn’t translate to reduced life expectancy.

Without disagreeing that the space of neurodivergence includes some life affecting disabilities, this generalization would also prove that race is not just harmless “natural diversity” but that being of a non-dominant race is also a “life affecting disability”. There are other explanations for correlation with reduced life expectancy than individual disability.

Re:I feel hopeless, rejected, and a burden on society-one we... by coldtea on Sunday July 30, 2023 @03:43PM (#36935152)
The mechanism doesn't have to be genetic/physiological. Social or behavioral disavantages caused or attenuated by the disability, still means the disability is not harmless.
Re:I feel hopeless, rejected, and a burden on society-one we... by AndrewKemendo on Sunday July 30, 2023 @09:55PM (#36938019)
Re:I feel hopeless, rejected, and a burden on society-one we... by concordDance on Monday July 31, 2023 @03:45AM (#36939784)
> that being of a non-dominant race is also a “life affecting disability”.

One thing worth noticing is that a society tends to be designed for the convenience of the dominant ethnicity, people of a different culture are going to have a somewhat harder time.

Re:I feel hopeless, rejected, and a burden on society-one we... by red-iron-pine on Monday July 31, 2023 @02:01PM (#36946448)
cultures can be taught; no amount of learning is going to make a black person white, or make either japanese.
Re:I feel hopeless, rejected, and a burden on society-one we... by DoughnutHole on Sunday July 30, 2023 @03:44PM (#36935161)
Whether or not something is considered a disability is really matter of severity. I believe this applies to both physical and mental conditions.

If someone has reduced mobility in their arm due to some past injury that might not be considered a disability if its impact on their life is low. If that impairment is so severe that they have functionally lost use of that arm then it could easily be considered such.

I don’t consider my ADHD a disability, but it is an impairment with regards to impulse control. But someone else’s condition could be much more severe. Someone with bipolar disorder or manic depression can easily go through a bout of extreme suggestibility which can wreak absolute havoc on their life.

Categorising many mental disorders as harmless “neurodiversity” feels like a form of forced positivity imposed to alleviate the stigma of some disorders at the cost of dismissing the serious impairments inherent to others.

Re:I feel hopeless, rejected, and a burden on society-one we... by kayodelycaon on Sunday July 30, 2023 @06:11PM (#36936525)
I’m am bipolar and neurodivergent doesn’t even scratch the surface. Hypomanic episodes are expensive because I have barely any impulse control. No amount of defense in depth can stop me from getting access to money. I have to use a different strategy:

I prepare for these episodes months in advance.

I needed a new car, so I set myself up to be fixated on a new Prius when the episode got bad. Nothing less than new would do because I wouldn’t have the presence of mind to vet a used one.

This put a hard limit on the financial damage. The highest trim Prius with all of the options is cheaper that many other cars I could have bought.

The end result was a car $10,000 over my maximum budget. It has far too many buttons, but it didn’t ruin me and I love the car. All in all, a successfully managed episode.

This is one of hundreds of problems I deal with and plan for.

Re:I feel hopeless, rejected, and a burden on society-one we... by HWR_14 on Sunday July 30, 2023 @11:41PM (#36938587)
Can you not get some trusted 3rd party (I assume a lawyer or accountant is the professional option) to limit you. Legally prevent you, for instance, from spending X (or borrowing money) on a car?
Re:I feel hopeless, rejected, and a burden on society-one we... by kayodelycaon on Monday July 31, 2023 @09:00AM (#36941911)
I knew someone would suggest that. :)

It’s a really bad idea. I’m perfectly willing and highly motivated to destroy relationships to get that money. Think heroin addict.

Instead, I save around 25% of every paycheck on top of retirement plans. This gives me a large buffer against episodes. It’s also split across multiple banks. I only use a single account and the others sit for months without a transaction. I don’t have checks or high limit cards for the others to delay access to their full amount. This is exactly the right amount of friction to keep them safe. It’s there, it’s mine, it can be available if I can wait a day. I can’t wait a day.

The results speak for themselves:

1. My credit score is over 800

2. My only loans are a house and car.

3. I’ve never failed to pay my credit card off in full each month.

As a side note, people see this and think I’m not that bad. They are wrong. Very wrong. I am simply extremely good at masking and compensating.

According to my psychiatrist, I’m a fairly severe case despite being easy to treat.

Re:I feel hopeless, rejected, and a burden on society-one we... by HWR_14 on Monday July 31, 2023 @12:59PM (#36945549)
I understand the benefit of preventing future you from fucking up your life. I'm glad you found a solution with the right amount of friction.

And, I'm sorry to repeat myself, but isn't it possible that you go to a third party professional (e.g. a lawyer) which you can melt down and it would be fine because it would be legally enforced. Or would the resentment build and you would just buy a second car (or house!) as soon as you are free of their strictures. Sure, you destroy the relationship, but there are more lawyers for the next time.

Once again, congrats on having a solution!

Re:I feel hopeless, rejected, and a burden on society-one we... by kayodelycaon on Monday July 31, 2023 @08:13PM (#36950666)
I have no energy to spare to set it up, much less maintain that solution.

Each step of the process requires significant activation energy and unless I finish every step with no delays, it will not be restarted for months.

My brain is incredibly unreliable. There are very few things I can force myself to do. Unless a routine task is more important than work or my twice a month D&D game, it won’t be done on time, if it gets done at all.

That includes cooking, showering, housework, car maintenance, etc. Reminders for these things will be ignored. Todo lists will be ignored.

Re:I feel hopeless, rejected, and a burden on society-one we... by HWR_14 on Tuesday August 01, 2023 @01:43AM (#36952751)
Can I ask how you described the situation to a therapist? And how long did it take you to get up the energy to go to one?
Re:I feel hopeless, rejected, and a burden on society-one we... by HumblyTossed on Sunday July 30, 2023 @04:31PM (#36935639)
Respectfully, you are not trauma informed if you feel this way. Plenty of kids in foster care who have been traumatized by bios have impulse control issues due to their mal-developed amygdala.
Re:I feel hopeless, rejected, and a burden on society-one we... by HWR_14 on Sunday July 30, 2023 @11:35PM (#36938558)
I'm skeptical but curious. Trauma caused mal-developed amygdala which causes impulse control issues? That sounds like one of those things that could be true or hokum. Like, would it show up on brain scans. And do they commonly do those on people? That said, I'm sure you have a direction you can point me - at least some search terms for Google.
Re:I feel hopeless, rejected, and a burden on society-one we... by HumblyTossed on Tuesday August 01, 2023 @02:02PM (#36959845)
Simply Google childhood trauma effects on the brain.

Yes, it shows up on brain scans.

Children in abusive households, be it physical, emotional, neglect, etc are in near total fight flight or flee mode constantly. This absolutely effects the amygdala.

Re:I feel hopeless, rejected, and a burden on society-one we... by concordDance on Monday July 31, 2023 @03:48AM (#36939805)
The impulse control issues could also be genetic, inherited from the parents.
Re:I feel hopeless, rejected, and a burden on society-one we... by concordDance on Monday July 31, 2023 @03:37AM (#36939742)
A lot of disabilities are a sliding scale with fuzzy grey areas. E.g. visual impairment goes all the way from "struggling to distinguish colors" and "vision is distorted enough that it's impossible to correct to 20-20" to "can't see hand in from of face"
Re:I feel hopeless, rejected, and a burden on society-one we... by joker_minmax on Sunday July 30, 2023 @04:28PM (#36935610)
This also ties into a problem with usability in general. I don't need an impulse control issue to accidentally click ads or accidentally allow notifications on websites. But clicking the wrong thing could cause huge problems in anyone's life when things are made near impossible to use for anyone without 20/20 vision and years of experience. That's why it's so difficult for elderly people to use these things - even Google Chrome now is a nightmare without even going onto a website. But oops now you're subscribed or scammed.
Re:I feel hopeless, rejected, and a burden on society-one we... by 93po on Sunday July 30, 2023 @07:52PM (#36937287)
Impulse control in general is something that would vastly improve nearly everyone's life to a massive degree. Don't instinctively reach for your phone. Don't add cookies to your shopping cart. Don't thoughtlessly lie to get out of an uncomfortable situation. Don't open hacker news.

I have spent the past couple months with my time off work working on this all day every day. It's made a massive improvement in my life, my habits, my routine, and working towards the things that are meaningful in my life.

Obviously I'm not faultless - I'm still here on a quick break.

Re:I feel hopeless, rejected, and a burden on society-one we... by Tanoc on Monday July 31, 2023 @01:16AM (#36939053)
I tend to have pretty good impulse control, aside from reading and wanting to eat certain foods. And being aware of that makes it frustrating when I see people engage in harmful or negative behaviours such as ordering from Doordash and paying twice as much as a steak dinner for a basic burger.

It seems so easy to me personally to refrain from doing so many of these things, and that makes it that much more apparent to me how many systems in modern life are so heavily exploitative of and designed to destroy impulse control. A lot of people had their willpower eroded over time and never noticed, and because of that they see nothing is wrong. It's not a great thing to witness actual fully grown adults being just as impulsive as their five year old children.