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Re:I feel hopeless, rejected, and a burden on society-one we... by coldtea on Sunday July 30, 2023 @02:12PM (#36934210)
Neurodiversity is a nicer sounding term, to mask the fact that underneath there are certain life affecting disabilities - often severely life affecting (if it was just harmless "natural neurodiversity", it wouldn't translate to reduced life expectancy. Not to mention millions of cases which need constant assistance to make it througn everyday life).

That it also targets "everyone's nature" doesn't mean it's not a bigger issue for people with certain neurodiversities affecting impulse control more. Same way a badly maintained road might also inconvenience a perfectly abled walker, but it is far more burdensome to a disabled person.

Re:I feel hopeless, rejected, and a burden on society-one we... by adroniser on Sunday July 30, 2023 @02:42PM (#36934535)
The reason for the low life expectancy of autism for instance is suicide.
Re:I feel hopeless, rejected, and a burden on society-one we... by coldtea on Sunday July 30, 2023 @03:41PM (#36935122)
It's lower even accounting for suicide already.

There are lots of other issues, like losing supporting parents and family, lack of a support network of friends, lack of job opportunities and bad work careers, issues with pursuing healthcare and maintaining health and lack of access to healthcare, and so on.

Re:I feel hopeless, rejected, and a burden on society-one we... by adroniser on Sunday July 30, 2023 @04:30PM (#36935629)
These are all systemic issues though are they not? You could make all of these same arguments about gay people back in the 80s. Yes even the healthcare one. That doesn't mean that being gay isn't a natural variation in sexual orientation just as being autistic is a natural variation in brain structure.
Re:I feel hopeless, rejected, and a burden on society-one we... by coldtea on Sunday July 30, 2023 @06:53PM (#36936851)
>These are all systemic issues though are they not?

Only in the sense that the system doesn't provide extra accomondations. Not in the sense of active purposeful systemic opression (unlike say with blacks or gays).

>That doesn't mean that being gay isn't a natural variation in sexual orientation just as being autistic is a natural variation in brain structure.

I wouldn't say it's "just as". Being gay doesn'r bring any special impairement in sensory processing, social understanding, proprioception, speech, and so on. It only affects individuals because of morality / prejudice.

Whereas being autistic, especially of high support needs, means major sensitivity issues, issues with communication, problems coping with changes to routine, sometimes even inability to speak at all, meltdowns, and other issues, which impact the person, and need to be catered and attended, and even when perfectly catered, still cause issues (a school or office can accomondate for sensory issues, but we can't remove noise and light and other sensations from the world).

Saying it's a "natural variation" begs the question.

Re:I feel hopeless, rejected, and a burden on society-one we... by AndrewKemendo on Sunday July 30, 2023 @10:01PM (#36938053)
Well said. I’d go further and say the modern world is only comfortable for a particular subset of neurodivergent people

Namely ones who are content to be sedentary and work on explicitly abstract or highly derived concepts (mathematics, accounting, computing etc).

That’s a novel context even in near history, saying nothing of how far away our nearly unchanged pre-modern biology is from being comfortable in such a context

Re:I feel hopeless, rejected, and a burden on society-one we... by coldtea on Monday July 31, 2023 @04:37AM (#36940094)
That's a good point regarding the particular subset being more expected/accepted/integrated.

If you're asd and want to work in math or programming or something similar, it's much smoother sailing than in you want to work in many other professions that aren't abstract/sedentary. Much worse if you'd like to work in a highly social profession like advertising or journalism (or even academia in today's climate where it's mostly about how good you're at self-promotion and networking).

Re:I feel hopeless, rejected, and a burden on society-one we... by adroniser on Monday July 31, 2023 @04:24AM (#36940018)
I think you're probably right and I've misread your intention (autism lol). I agree with you that yes being autistic is a disability in the modern world due to a lack of accommodations.

My perception of the word neurodivergent is that firstly the vast majority of people who use the word use it with an often first-hand awareness of the disabling aspects of conditions like adhd or autism, but with a view towards self acceptance. The people using the word are often painfully aware of the downsides of their disability, but equally can see the upshots.

If we were in a world populated by 99% autistic people, neurotypical people would be called overly emotional, lower cognitive function, inability to think abstractly, inability to focus for long periods of time.

The point is you can acknowledge the need for accommodations while simultaneously acknowledging that it's not so much something inherently "wrong" with you, rather something wrong with you existing in a neurotypical world.

Re:I feel hopeless, rejected, and a burden on society-one we... by coldtea on Monday July 31, 2023 @04:40AM (#36940105)
Yeah, understanding the disabling aspects shouldn't prevent self-acceptance. Even more so, shouldn't prevent social acceptance. Yet, physical disabilities get much more respect and acceptance.
Re:I feel hopeless, rejected, and a burden on society-one we... by JohnBooty on Monday July 31, 2023 @01:09AM (#36939018)

    These are all systemic issues though 
    are they not? You could make all of 
    these same arguments about gay people 
    back in the 80s.
I don't think so. Some but not all.

There's nothing inherent about being gay that prevents healthy mutual interpersonal relationships.

Many people on the autism spectrum have wonderful and fulfilling interpersonal relationships (I suspect I am one of these, in fact) but autism can negatively affect many of the building blocks (empathy, etc) of interpersonal relationships.

Re:I feel hopeless, rejected, and a burden on society-one we... by concordDance on Monday July 31, 2023 @03:46AM (#36939791)
Re:I feel hopeless, rejected, and a burden on society-one we... by adroniser on Monday July 31, 2023 @04:30AM (#36940063)
Yeah there's comorbidities, the only two of which are significant enough for the literature to note in this context is epilepsy and mental illness. Epilepsy does not account for most early death in level 1 ASD.
Re:I feel hopeless, rejected, and a burden on society-one we... by concordDance on Monday July 31, 2023 @07:44AM (#36941210)
Got some numbers or a cite in this?
Re:I feel hopeless, rejected, and a burden on society-one we... by adroniser on Monday July 31, 2023 @08:28AM (#36941596)
I don't actually but i've heard it said by a fair few experts in autism and such as being one of the big things they focus on as it is the main reason for early mortality.
Re:I feel hopeless, rejected, and a burden on society-one we... by dragonwriter on Sunday July 30, 2023 @02:18PM (#36934282)
> if it was just harmless “natural neurodiversity”, it wouldn’t translate to reduced life expectancy.

Without disagreeing that the space of neurodivergence includes some life affecting disabilities, this generalization would also prove that race is not just harmless “natural diversity” but that being of a non-dominant race is also a “life affecting disability”. There are other explanations for correlation with reduced life expectancy than individual disability.

Re:I feel hopeless, rejected, and a burden on society-one we... by coldtea on Sunday July 30, 2023 @03:43PM (#36935152)
The mechanism doesn't have to be genetic/physiological. Social or behavioral disavantages caused or attenuated by the disability, still means the disability is not harmless.
Re:I feel hopeless, rejected, and a burden on society-one we... by AndrewKemendo on Sunday July 30, 2023 @09:55PM (#36938019)
Re:I feel hopeless, rejected, and a burden on society-one we... by concordDance on Monday July 31, 2023 @03:45AM (#36939784)
> that being of a non-dominant race is also a “life affecting disability”.

One thing worth noticing is that a society tends to be designed for the convenience of the dominant ethnicity, people of a different culture are going to have a somewhat harder time.

Re:I feel hopeless, rejected, and a burden on society-one we... by red-iron-pine on Monday July 31, 2023 @02:01PM (#36946448)
cultures can be taught; no amount of learning is going to make a black person white, or make either japanese.