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Re:I Am Leaving by magic_hamster on Wednesday July 12, 2023 @06:07AM (#36692422)
Practically it's impossible to quit WhatsApp, more so in certain countries. However if you still have that old account, you can choose not to accept any of Meta'a new terms and agreements, and surprisingly they still let you use it! The last time I accepted the terms was probably around 2013.
Re:I Am Leaving by fcatalan on Wednesday July 12, 2023 @06:31AM (#36692564)
True, here in Spain WhatsApp is practically a basic utility. Nobody is not on WhatsApp.
Re:I Am Leaving by magic_hamster on Wednesday July 12, 2023 @06:59AM (#36692750)
Aside from people, a significant number of companies, and even government services, offer service through WhatsApp as well. In some parts of the world it's really impossible not to use it.
Re:I Am Leaving by geysersam on Wednesday July 12, 2023 @07:19AM (#36692875)
Why have they been so successful? Why didn't MMS 6.0 implement everything that exists in modern chat applications. Why is Meta anything more than the anonymous humble entities producing sms and "phone" apps?
Re:I Am Leaving by blizarre on Wednesday July 12, 2023 @07:29AM (#36692980)
I guess because Whatsapp provides a unified and standard way to communicate between people on different provider networks / countries for free? You get groups, text/images/location sharing, video/audio calls, cross-countries, that works very reliably, and you only need internet (which can be found almost anywhere even if that's just wifi).

MMS still don't work reliably for me (lost a message just last week that someone swear to have sent). And for a long time they were not free as well.

Re:I Am Leaving by smaudet on Wednesday July 12, 2023 @07:47AM (#36693148)
This is still where normal phones work better (no internet).
Re:I Am Leaving by geysersam on Wednesday July 12, 2023 @08:26AM (#36693541)
I'm not actually suggesting using MMS. I just wanted to illustrate that we've had instant communication technology (even "rich" multi-media) long before Whatsapp etc. Why didn't the providers of that technology (telecom companies) become Meta?

The difference is that MMS/SMS is standardized and agnostic to the client interface. While WhatsApp is proprietary and monopolizes the client.

We could easily have had a "internet direct message" standard implementing most of WhatsApps features. (Wait... Isn't that SMTP?)

Maybe I'm just ignorant, but what does WhatsApp bring that let's say email++ does not have?

Re:I Am Leaving by notimetorelax on Wednesday July 12, 2023 @08:54AM (#36693850)
Telcos hire vendors to run their networks and services. For them WhatsApp is yet another vendor.
Re:I Am Leaving by conradfr on Wednesday July 12, 2023 @07:46AM (#36693135)
It was a great and useful cross platform messaging app ... and still is after Meta bought it.
Re:I Am Leaving by Groxx on Wednesday July 12, 2023 @10:26AM (#36695026)
MMS has been exorbitantly, insanely expensive and with extremely high failure rates in much of the world until...

... actually that's still the case in varying degrees and locations. And once you've got great market penetration in an area, there's little to no reason to switch unless the competition is noticeably better, which MMS really has no claim to.

Re:I Am Leaving by geysersam on Wednesday July 12, 2023 @12:06PM (#36696702)
Point is: why did an open standard for direct messages not win over proprietary solutions?
Re:I Am Leaving by Groxx on Wednesday July 12, 2023 @12:14PM (#36696854)
They put in quite a lot of time and money to build it and make it work on a ridiculous array of devices running weird embedded OSes.

Open standards hadn't.

Or if you're referring to MMS: insane user cost and insane unreliability, standards mean nothing if the implementations are all trash.

Re:I Am Leaving by geysersam on Wednesday July 12, 2023 @05:36PM (#36702010)
But why didn't email win over WhatsApp? Doesn't email run on all devices?

Not saying it should have, just that I don't really see the difference in functionality.

Re:I Am Leaving by Groxx on Wednesday July 12, 2023 @09:05PM (#36703854)
Email definitely did not. When WhatsApp was beginning its rise to domination, it was on tons of feature phones - mostly just calls, texts, and WhatsApp. Email implies a lot more general internet access than was generally supported or understood by people, since it supports arbitrary data and hosts.
Re:I Am Leaving by pjmlp on Wednesday July 12, 2023 @07:48AM (#36693155)
For example, try to get hold of taxi services in Africa without Whatsapp.
Re:I Am Leaving by okal on Wednesday July 12, 2023 @07:59AM (#36693284)
Where in Africa? People just use Uber or alternatives, and it works fine pretty much everywhere I've been (I'm Kenyan. I've lived in South Africa for extended periods, and travelled extensively in Namibia and Tanzania). I've never once heard of anyone using WhatsApp for cab hailing. It gets pretty exhausting finding people talking about a whole continent on HN in broad strokes as though it's some small town they once went to on holiday, and can now offer their expert opinion on.
Re:I Am Leaving by defrost on Wednesday July 12, 2023 @08:07AM (#36693343)
As an Australian I sympathise, it's not all HN'rs [1] but there's certainly a strong core of proud ignorance confident in their assertaions about other cultures, countries, political systems, etc.

[1] https://www.explainxkcd.com/wiki/index.php/850:_World_Accord...

PS: I met a guy in Mali once, d'ya know them? [2] /s

[2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BOValSt7YOY

Re:I Am Leaving by okal on Thursday July 13, 2023 @01:51AM (#36705456)
Thanks for the recommendation You may also enjoy Tinariwen, if you haven't already come across them.
Re:I Am Leaving by defrost on Thursday July 13, 2023 @02:06AM (#36705538)
Cheers bigtime.

Here I was expecting something from Tanzania or Kenya and we're back in Northern Mali!

I'm a bit old - I travelled extensively about the globe when I was younger doing geophysicsl survey work and ground truthing the transition from many paper map systems to WGS84.

Africa has some fantastic musicians.

All I can offer in return is some Australians and their collaborations ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JjDlbCfybbE

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sr3iI8gg2fo

English x Yolngu Matha x Bemba:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TrM8Ly17lw4

Why not:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BTmGpJJsQEU

Re:I Am Leaving by okal on Thursday July 13, 2023 @04:50AM (#36706498)
Haha! I thought we were just trading desert blues today.

Here's some Kenyan fare for you, an odd mix of things:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ig9DHit6K8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Or2sMfOcTtw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tb0k0LuJFw8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hlMw5uOFyaU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b0Jwf-Y1uww

Tjamuku Ngurra is beautiful. I don't think I've listened to Aboriginal fusion (there's all sorts of interesting things happening there) before. My consumption of Australian music has mostly been limited to Tame Impala, whom I love, but this is special. Thank you so much for sharing.

Re:I Am Leaving by defrost on Thursday July 13, 2023 @05:58AM (#36706923)
There's some gorgeous music there, thank-you.

Australian music is surprisingly broad for such a small (population wise, physically it's the same land area as mainland USofA (and together the US + Australia are less than the area of Africa ..)) .. "aboriginal fusion" (that works) is also broader than many might imagine.

To barely scratch the surface:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xMqG_LyD9s4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bdpoWcma4HE

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JLQ4by3lUJo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aBAv36KM4rI

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=myKF9mxAJ70 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gw-AgvUEVm4

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e7XevQAVoBI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-VMcnKM09w0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kqfyHzL0G-o https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pHJFfSmnCnY

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hWibGemExd0

(I can go on forever here)

Meanwhile, 'back in Africa' (well, perhaps, out of Adrica)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UGomSuDPeSU

https://youtu.be/tvY31eN3gtE?t=38

Re:I Am Leaving by pjmlp on Wednesday July 12, 2023 @09:33AM (#36694279)
In 2019 I can assure I was only able to get taxis in Tanzania via Whatsapp.

To be honest I never used Uber and never saw a taxi with stickers telling otherwise.

Likewise arranging trips with the local tourist agencies.

Re:I Am Leaving by okal on Thursday July 13, 2023 @01:44AM (#36705421)
That may well be true for your one experience in Tanzania. I wasn't there with you. I have neither a reason, nor the desire to counter your personal experience.

Here's what I find baffling. You had a single, curated, extremely limited travel experience, in (I'm guessing) a handful of places, in one country, over a limited time period. You extrapolated from that experience to making a bold, sweeping claim about an odd 1.2 billion people living in 54 countries. And with an air of worldly confidence, to boot. What you said of Africa is not even generally true of the city of Dar es Salaam, let alone all of Tanzania. How could it possibly be true for a whole continent? I'm genuinely in awe of both the audacity it takes to make such a claim, and the thought process that leads to it. I do feel a bit bad for singling you out (but only a little bad) since it's sadly not unusual for people to choose to talk about places in this way when they don't expect to be challenged.

Re:I Am Leaving by pjlegato on Wednesday July 12, 2023 @12:11PM (#36696795)
If it makes you feel any better, people also do the same sort of inaccurate cultural reductivism about the United States -- a vast geographical area containing many strongly differentiated local regional cultures -- on a daily basis.
Re:I Am Leaving by okal on Thursday July 13, 2023 @01:48AM (#36705443)
It does, actually Quite unexpectedly, too. I have an American friend who keeps recommending places I should visit in the States, but I always respond by saying I don't want to get shot or racially profiled. It's a source of constant frustration for him. I did not expect HN to be where I'd find empathy for his perspective.
Re:I Am Leaving by set92 on Wednesday July 12, 2023 @07:27AM (#36692964)
I'm only in Telegram. And is also good because the family groups are only in WhatsApp, so I can have an excuse.
Re:I Am Leaving by 3pt14159 on Wednesday July 12, 2023 @06:13AM (#36692462)
Eh—not really.

I just say "can we use Signal? It's super secure." And people generally are fine to use Signal. They don't use SMS because it's expensive and many that own an iPhone in countries where Android dominate don't use iMessage because, well, few around them use iPhone and the interface (i.e., the phone number) doesn't really tell them that they won't get charged for a text message.

I've posted up in many countries, and it's rarely a show stopper.

Re:I Am Leaving by Closi on Wednesday July 12, 2023 @06:17AM (#36692487)
That's fine but you aren't on the group chat, so won't know about the hike next Sunday.
Re:I Am Leaving by latexr on Wednesday July 12, 2023 @06:58AM (#36692736)
Anecdotally, all of my friends who are part of group chats are annoyed by them. Too much noise for too little signal. On a personal level, if there’s anything in a group chat that would be relevant to me I’ll know about it from one of the participants through another medium, like an SMS or phone call or when we see each other.
Re:I Am Leaving by Closi on Wednesday July 12, 2023 @08:22AM (#36693505)
You can be both annoyed and find value in them.

Mine are annoying too, but I keep them because they also keep me in the loop.

Re:I Am Leaving by counterbead on Wednesday July 12, 2023 @07:01AM (#36692767)
if they are people worth your while, they'll make sure to let you know about it using other means...
Re:I Am Leaving by blizarre on Wednesday July 12, 2023 @07:31AM (#36692994)
They might not be your friend by the local hiking/diving/parent/whatever group. They don't owe you anything.
Re:I Am Leaving by smaudet on Wednesday July 12, 2023 @07:53AM (#36693221)
And you don't owe them anything either.

If they are really your only option, you can use whatever insane platform they are on long enough to forge a couple friendships, explain your stance and then quit.

If they are your friends they will understand, if not it wasn't worth the effort to begin with.

Re:I Am Leaving by adql on Wednesday July 12, 2023 @08:42AM (#36693722)
Well if you valued them as a friend you wouldn't make their life more annoying and just install a communicator app
Re:I Am Leaving by smaudet on Wednesday July 12, 2023 @10:31AM (#36695100)
"If you valued me as a friend, you wouldn't force me to use a communicator app.

My life is so annoying as a result of you, now I have to buy and maintain another phone, and then remember to check it, for your app.

Maybe, you could use something we agree on, like <insert plethora of choices>".

Re:I Am Leaving by breuleux on Wednesday July 12, 2023 @09:48AM (#36694468)
Someone does not have to understand your idiosyncrasies to be your friend.

Most people will not, in fact, understand why you are so picky about the chat platforms you are willing to use, and they will think (correctly, I would say) that you care more about your social media stances than you care about their friendship. So you will think they were not worth the effort to begin with, and they will think the same in return, but ultimately they are not restricting their potential friend pool nearly as much as you are. If it works out well for you, great, otherwise you have to be a bit more pragmatic.

Re:I Am Leaving by smaudet on Wednesday July 12, 2023 @10:28AM (#36695067)
"and they will think (correctly, I would say) that you care more about your social media stances than you care about their friendship."

Poor reasoning. "We should go do hard drugs together, we're friends, right?", "You should just let me have sex with you, we're friends right?".

Using friendship as a cudgel is disgusting, and quite frankly, unfriendly. The above examples are extreme, but there is a cost to everything.

Pragmatic-ism cuts both ways.

Re:I Am Leaving by breuleux on Wednesday July 12, 2023 @02:43PM (#36699735)
My statement still stands. If you ask me to do hard drugs with you, I will say no. Does that mean I value my physical and mental integrity over our friendship? YES! I absolutely do.

It is perfectly fine to value certain things over friendship. You just have to be conscious of the friction that your convictions will cause and ask yourself whether it's worth it for you. Health is worth it. Chat apps? I don't know. If you ask me to use Signal, that seems reasonable enough and I'll do it, but if we're a group of 10 coordinating over Whatsapp and you want me to tell you whenever plans are being made, it's like, OK, but I'm doing the effort for our personal convos, can't you meet me halfway or something? That's the kind of friction you're going to deal with. Up to you.

Re:I Am Leaving by smaudet on Wednesday July 12, 2023 @10:42PM (#36704435)
"Chat apps? I don't know."

If the content is compelling enough you will chat where you both agree to. If not it is like telling someone the only way you will talk is in the park by the chess tables.

Sure maybe you talk to them by chess tables sometimes, but if they won't meet you for coffee then they aren't your friends, just chess table acquaitances.

Re:I Am Leaving by Closi on Thursday July 13, 2023 @06:24AM (#36707080)
It's the group apps where it's the issue though.

Real example: My friend group has a hiking group on WhatsApp and there is one friend who is not on it. One person will propose a hike, and will keep messaging the group with information about it. Someone then has to message that other friend and tell them about it, every time there is a slight adjustment to plans.

Let's say you are my friend, and Bob is arranging a hike for 10am on Saturday. You usually come on the hike so I let you know. Even though all the details are on the group, you ask me all the questions and I have to fill you in. Then on the morning of the hike Darcy's car breaks down and the time gets rearranged from 10am to 11am, so then I have to tell you that as well because you aren't on the group chat, and suddenly I feel like I am becoming your PA (and if I forget to tell you the time has changed then suddenly it's my fault - even though i'm not arranging the damn hike and you could have been on the group in the first place you just refuse).

Re:I Am Leaving by magic_hamster on Wednesday July 12, 2023 @01:32PM (#36698374)
Some of my best friends decided to quit certain platforms like Facebook and yes, Whatsapp too (two people). I definitely understood. I even have signal and telegram installed. But I never remember to check them. It's just not practical.
Re:I Am Leaving by Closi on Wednesday July 12, 2023 @08:19AM (#36693465)
> if they are people worth your while, they'll make sure to let you know about it using other means...

Ugh, I might but it's annoying for me (your friend) to be your personal messenger whenever there is something you might be interested in on the group chat.

Why is it on me to keep you in the loop? It's why we created the group chat, Dave.

Particularly that time when you got all annoyed at me for not being invited camping - I didn't even organise the trip in the first place, it's not my job to tell you about every event on the group chat just because you won't download WhatsApp.

Re:I Am Leaving by boondoggle16 on Wednesday July 12, 2023 @07:10AM (#36692822)
sounds like your friends really love you
Re:I Am Leaving by bmacho on Wednesday July 12, 2023 @07:20AM (#36692886)
If you want to know what they talk about, then you have to use the same platform. This is trivial, and doesn't have much to do with being able to quit WhatsApp.
Re:I Am Leaving by Closi on Wednesday July 12, 2023 @10:23AM (#36694999)
It does have a lot to do with quitting WhatsApp - because WhatsApp is the platform that is the de-facto application for this in some parts of the world.

Absolutely increases it's stickiness.

Re:I Am Leaving by asah on Wednesday July 12, 2023 @07:46AM (#36693136)
For this use case, I use a burner Google voice number, give that to Whatsapp and don't give it access to my contacts or anything on my phone. Late model phones don't give apps IMEI or real MAC.

It's not perfect: when you connect with people they can easily associate your WhatsApp account with your identity (add contact) and also share info/pics/etc about you that you wouldn't want shared. They can do this even if you're not on WhatsApp, and Meta can use face recognition and other techniques to create a profile for you, then associate that profile with the other days and profile they have for you. It's trivial to narrow the down to a few million users then match on photo etc. Unclear if they bother, given that 99% of users just give away their privacy.

Also, Whatsapp verification uses SMS. If they'd used a verification URL, they could've (bounced through) Facebook.com, Instagram.com, etc and associated the account via (first party) cookies. I'm guessing they don't because 99% of users happily give the app all the permissions it needs and SMS is more universal.

Re:I Am Leaving by hhh on Wednesday July 12, 2023 @06:22AM (#36692514)
When you type a number into the Messages app it will tell you if it’s a text message or iMessage in the message bar on iOS.
Re:I Am Leaving by jcul on Thursday July 13, 2023 @01:35AM (#36705383)
It's not that simple.

In countries where WhatsApp is ubiquitous, it is used for more than just messaging friends.

For example, many childcare places will send updates through WhatsApp groups. So you have to convince the business and all their clients to switch to signal or do without notifications for your child's childcare.