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Re:Louis Rossmann: Autodesk turns lifetime licenses into sub... by wakeupcall on Saturday July 01, 2023 @07:33AM (#36549011)
Just a reminder that Autodesk is the oracle/adobe of the CAD world, and this is just the way they always operated.
Re:Louis Rossmann: Autodesk turns lifetime licenses into sub... by PartiallyTyped on Saturday July 01, 2023 @07:57AM (#36549158)
I am surprised VMWare didn’t do the same thing tbh.
Re:Louis Rossmann: Autodesk turns lifetime licenses into sub... by ChuckNorris89 on Saturday July 01, 2023 @08:37AM (#36549464)
Yet...
Re:Louis Rossmann: Autodesk turns lifetime licenses into sub... by TeMPOraL on Saturday July 01, 2023 @09:25AM (#36549859)
2023 starts to look like the Year of Enshittification, so it may come sooner than expected.
Re:Louis Rossmann: Autodesk turns lifetime licenses into sub... by nirui on Saturday July 01, 2023 @11:08AM (#36550932)
Fun joke aside, I don't think that's really possible anymore since there are high quality opensource alternatives such as KVM (for server deployments) and Virtual Box (for end users).

But in the CAD field, Autodesk is the clear winner here with no good alternatives, even you count in FreeCAD. It makes business sense for Autodesk to keep grabbing as much money as they could, so they can: 1) earn money, 2) add more features into their product to raise the bar higher. It's the same logic behind Adobe and maybe Microsoft, Apple, Google etc.

The good news is, at least you don't have to pay for Autodesk 3ds Max now since Blender. Maybe it could be more productive if we convert our hatreds towards greedy commercial software into supports (donate etc) towards free and opensource alternatives (FreeCAD etc in this case).

So maybe when next time someone wanted to say "fuck Autodesk", send $5 to FreeCAD instead (https://www.freecad.org/sponsor.php).

Re:Louis Rossmann: Autodesk turns lifetime licenses into sub... by ushakov on Saturday July 01, 2023 @11:54AM (#36551438)
> Autodesk is the clear winner here with no good alternatives

What about SolidWorks?

Re:Louis Rossmann: Autodesk turns lifetime licenses into sub... by theatrus2 on Saturday July 01, 2023 @12:47PM (#36552020)
SolidWorks (and Catia upmarket), Siemens NX are the two most popular in the field that Inventor/Fusion plays in. 2d Autocad is pretty entrenched in some industries with no real competition.
Re:Louis Rossmann: Autodesk turns lifetime licenses into sub... by seoulbigchris on Saturday July 01, 2023 @03:45PM (#36554272)
> But in the CAD field, Autodesk is the clear winner here with no good alternatives

I’m an EE who only needs to use 2D CAD occasionally. Back in the early days I got myself a copy of AutoCAD LT (my company used AutoCAD so it made sense to learn the same tools that out draftsmen used). I developed strong muscle memory for the AutoCAD commands, and it’s not really worth my time and hassle to learn a new tool given how infrequently I need it. Some years back I stumbled on DraftSight which was free / low-cost and was a UI clone of AutoCAD. They eventually switched to a subscription model. I’m not a big fan of SASS, but when it’s not an exorbitant price, needed for my professional work, and the software generates industry standard files that I can use with other packages if I want to get off the SASS merry-go-round, I’m not strongly opposed, either.

Re:Louis Rossmann: Autodesk turns lifetime licenses into sub... by postmodest on Saturday July 01, 2023 @09:56AM (#36550150)
Didn't they change things so VMWare Fusion replaced the VMWare Player?

I switched to Parallels because of some shenanigans a while back...

Re:Louis Rossmann: Autodesk turns lifetime licenses into sub... by PartiallyTyped on Saturday July 01, 2023 @10:00AM (#36550193)
~~They dropped the lifetime licensing but they didn’t force people into subscription.~~

~~I know that LTT had such a license and made it a point to bring it up every time VMWare called them to turn it into a subscription.~~

I remembered wrong. :(

Re:Louis Rossmann: Autodesk turns lifetime licenses into sub... by seritools on Saturday July 01, 2023 @10:06AM (#36550275)
Pretty sure you're remembering TeamViewer instead: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SCRzaGUKEFA

EDIT: Prior discussion: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30113513

Re:Louis Rossmann: Autodesk turns lifetime licenses into sub... by PartiallyTyped on Saturday July 01, 2023 @11:06AM (#36550901)
Yeah you are right. I think I have made this mistake twice before. Oof.
Re:Louis Rossmann: Autodesk turns lifetime licenses into sub... by nicce on Saturday July 01, 2023 @09:01AM (#36549644)
These companies are doing well and making billions. We can assume that we will see more similar ones, as long as users still use their products in similar situations.
Re:Louis Rossmann: Autodesk turns lifetime licenses into sub... by mistrial9 on Saturday July 01, 2023 @09:07AM (#36549681)
no, it is more like this. Imagine building a great city. Each group decides what they would like to make, and their skills. One group decides to make a "book press" , where all the parts of making a paper book are improved. A different group decides to make a lock and key system, so that any time a city person wants to read a book, any book, they must use a key for that lock system. The City government over time is included, to say that "yes, we need these locks for safety"

Years pass.. the thousands of amazing and efficient books are printed, but people now have more books than they know how to use. But the lock system is in more places. The book maker group now has bills to pay, and the interest in new books is less and less. But the lock people are making more money every month.

SO the fine book people decide that they must now build locks.

Re:Louis Rossmann: Autodesk turns lifetime licenses into sub... by AndrewKemendo on Saturday July 01, 2023 @09:11AM (#36549713)
Great way to put it.

The structure of the firm dictates it’s future.

Re:Louis Rossmann: Autodesk turns lifetime licenses into sub... by immibis on Saturday July 01, 2023 @11:09AM (#36550944)
I saw this described as the conflict between business and industry.

Industry is making things. Books, food, video games, computers, petrochemicals.

Business is getting money.

Business strangles industry to death all the time.

The only thing we can do about it is make things that can't possibly be monetized. This is relatively easy in software - but still hard. Linux succeeded, and nobody pays for Solaris. Git succeeded, and nobody pays for Bitkeeper. One day there will be an open source equivalent to Autodesk and nobody will make money selling Autodesk equivalents, but the world will be better off.

But the people who make these things won't be rewarded, because they won't be doing business. Indeed, in many cases they'll go straight to prison.

Re:Louis Rossmann: Autodesk turns lifetime licenses into sub... by cyanydeez on Saturday July 01, 2023 @01:27PM (#36552523)
Government should be charged with identifying services and goods that benefit the public domain so much that it adds it to the Library.
Re:Louis Rossmann: Autodesk turns lifetime licenses into sub... by justsomehnguy on Saturday July 01, 2023 @01:37PM (#36552655)
> One day there will be an open source equivalent to Autodesk and nobody will make money selling Autodesk equivalents

The biggest trouble (after making a CAD software itself) is to keep it in line with a current regulations. I'm not familiar if A. even does that, but some regional alternatives are making money not only on the SW itself, but by providing services related to be in the compliance of regulations.

Re:Louis Rossmann: Autodesk turns lifetime licenses into sub... by roarcher on Saturday July 01, 2023 @03:36PM (#36554173)
Do you mean that CAD software itself has to comply with certain regulations? Or that it helps engineers comply with regulations regarding their designs?

Not a professional CAD user myself, but as a hobbyist with an interest in this space I've never heard of the former case, so I'm curious.

Re:Louis Rossmann: Autodesk turns lifetime licenses into sub... by justsomehnguy on Sunday July 02, 2023 @09:06AM (#36561127)
> it helps engineers comply with regulations regarding their designs

This one, I should had frame it better.

> I've never heard of the former case

I don't think the CAD software itself is a point of a regulations, but there are definitely some standards and regs regarding how it should be done. A quick search yielded [0] which is a nice example of how it could be done by a hand, yet it would help immensely if the CAD software would aid and do the things by itself, saving both the time and man-hours.

[0] https://www.gsa.gov/real-estate/design-and-construction/comp...

Re:Louis Rossmann: Autodesk turns lifetime licenses into sub... by roarcher on Monday July 03, 2023 @12:31AM (#36568880)
Thanks for the clarification! This makes sense.

I do wonder who is liable if the software used to design a bridge outputs incorrect simulation results and the bridge collapses as a consequence. I suppose it's on the senior project engineer (or whoever ultimately signs off on the design) to verify the results somehow.

Edit: This article [0] talks about "trust" being placed in commercial CAD software by engineers and doesn't mention regulation/certification of the software itself, which seems to imply that there is none.

[0] https://www.simscale.com/blog/open-source-software-cae/

Re:Louis Rossmann: Autodesk turns lifetime licenses into sub... by mdip on Saturday July 01, 2023 @10:19AM (#36550391)

  > Autodesk is the oracle/adobe of the CAD world
So many things come to mind with that one sentence, it's mesmerizing. I don't have a lot of direct exposure to Oracle, but I remember grief with Adobe and Autodesk products dating back to the 80s.

My dad's company was light manufacturing. They used AutoCAD for various things and my dad became proficient enough that he started wanting to use it for various projects at home. They used Aldus (eventually Adobe) PageMaker to design their catalogues. Both were ridiculously expensive large applications with a pretty solid lock on their respective industries. For the kind of catalogues they printed, they were required to provide the files in some format only PageMaker could produce and for their plays -- .DWG files.

I'm not sure how AutoCAD was actually licensed[0]. But much like Adobe's products, AutoCAD was somewhere in the neighborhood of $1,000-$1,500 and because a price tag like that means "a lot of people will pirate it", they required attaching a special device to the parallel port (a "License Dongle") in order to start the application. Before I was old enough to "step in and solve the problem", my Dad would just take the dongle home with him on the weekends.

Generally speaking I don't think a single piece of software generated more profanity in my home than AutoCAD did. It started when he brought it home the first time. He'd dropped $4,000 on an 8088 clone (built by a local shop) with a 10MB hard drive. We lacked the free space and he'd come home with a full height 20MB drive. I remember my Dad with a screwdriver trying to get the old drive out / new drive into this tight, steel case[1] about every 2-4 minutes -- yelling some brief 4-letter word-combo. I don't remember what it was that I needed in the office at that moment but my mom intercepted me on my way and said "you'll want to stay out of there for a little bit."[2]

I remember he had to install/remove the drive twice because he had forgotten to install the 8087 co-processor before he put the drive back in.

The dongle was a source of constant grief. In this era, the parallel port was almost always used for printing. The dongle had a pass-through. It sometimes let you print when the pass-through was used but for whatever reason, it failed enough that it was often removed to print. The license dongle remained unplugged most of the time because the computer was used to print things more than it was used to draft things. Worse, I think this was one of two license dongles that was required by software my Dad used. These dongles appeared to be designed to fail -- kind of makes sense if their license model really is "per seat/per user" -- maybe they wanted it to fail if it's traded between machines too frequently? But suffice it to say, it broke. Around this time, thankfully, I'd discovered BBSes and software cracking. I fixed the problem and we lost the dongle.

[0] I'm going to guess that it was actually "per install/per user" and forgive the remainder of the details ... I'm going from poorly Google-enhanced memory from when I was under age ten. Anecdotally, my Dad and all of the businesses that he worked with -- outside of "taking home a dongle" -- were all properly licensed despite the common wisdom at the time being "small shops are mostly pirates."

[1] Google image search 8088 clone and look for the ones with the two 5.12" floppies, beige plastic front, all metal otherwise. We had two 5.12" floppies in the right full height drive slot and one MFM full-height HDD in the left.

[2] I'm making my Dad sound like an angry hot-head -- in reality, he was never like this except for the handful of times he had to fight with this box. Had I walked into the office, my Dad probably would have been embarrassed ... my mom was simply trying to keep me out of his hair while he was stressed out.

Re:Louis Rossmann: Autodesk turns lifetime licenses into sub... by itronitron on Saturday July 01, 2023 @10:51AM (#36550732)
I have this picture in my head of you holding a worklight above an open CPU case while your dad works to connect the drive.
Re:Louis Rossmann: Autodesk turns lifetime licenses into sub... by mdip on Saturday July 01, 2023 @11:03AM (#36550862)
That would a pretty accurate depiction of future years, though who was holding the work-light changed hands when I was about 13 :)
Re:Louis Rossmann: Autodesk turns lifetime licenses into sub... by aleph_minus_one on Saturday July 01, 2023 @02:16PM (#36553226)
Why not use a decent headlamp? So much more comfortable.
Re:Louis Rossmann: Autodesk turns lifetime licenses into sub... by iancmceachern on Saturday July 01, 2023 @03:30PM (#36554093)
There was a time where lights were too big to be on headlamps. Many of us of a certain vintage grew up holding what were essentially metal cages around regular household light bulbs attached to a power cable for our parents and grandparents while they worked on carburetors or whatnot.
Re:Louis Rossmann: Autodesk turns lifetime licenses into sub... by jdhzzz on Sunday July 02, 2023 @04:41AM (#36559558)
Did you call them "drop light" or "trouble light" (Drop light for me)
Re:Louis Rossmann: Autodesk turns lifetime licenses into sub... by mdip on Sunday July 02, 2023 @01:06PM (#36563355)
It's funny you mention that ... I have both discovered and forgotten the novelty of a headlamp at least 5 times in the last decade.

At the time (1980s), I'm not sure there were very many good headlamp options but either way, I wasn't in control of the portable light purchasing decisions.

However, the man who's job it was didn't skimp much. He was a small plane pilot, so I recall being warned not "to look into this flashlight[0]." It looked not much different than you're typical consumer flashlight, but if you picked it up, it was much thicker plastic, used 4 C batteries and no joke, it hurt your eyes to look into.

[0] The flashlight has a switch and a button on it, the button lets you flicker the light for emergency visual signalling (the kind that a pilot might need for the very specific situation of "need to flash morse-code through the windscreen at the ATC tower to get landing clearance because I was struck by lightning and my radios are all fried" -- so ... bright.

Re:Louis Rossmann: Autodesk turns lifetime licenses into sub... by msisk6 on Saturday July 01, 2023 @01:54PM (#36552936)
I worked in AutoCAD Support during these days. We hated the dongles ("hardware locks") as much as our customers. We eventually got rid of them. I haven't used any Autodesk product in decades so I don't know what they do nowadays.
Re:Louis Rossmann: Autodesk turns lifetime licenses into sub... by award_ on Saturday July 01, 2023 @12:01PM (#36551513)
I just got into 3d printing as a hobby a few months ago and this has been my take away from their offerings as well. I use TinkerCad for most things; I'd like to get into Fusion 360, but I'd be a little afraid of learning a bunch about that software only to have more and more of it become out of reach behind licenses that don't make a lot of sense to buy as a hobbyist. That said, the products look great and seem to have everything a creator might want, so it definitely makes sense for pro shops to license and use.
Re:Louis Rossmann: Autodesk turns lifetime licenses into sub... by nunuvit on Saturday July 01, 2023 @12:14PM (#36551667)
The F360 businesses strategy is to sell subscriptions to companies. The free and cheap tiers are a lure for their target market which they're gradually reeling in. Don't get personally invested in it for fun unless you can sustain the financial investment.
Re:Louis Rossmann: Autodesk turns lifetime licenses into sub... by bobrown010 on Saturday July 01, 2023 @01:27PM (#36552517)
Look into onshape - all online (read, no installs of any kind required), free for personal use, and really what fusion 360 should have been.

Still missing minor advanced features of fusion360 but imo worlds better even if so

Re:Louis Rossmann: Autodesk turns lifetime licenses into sub... by eropple on Saturday July 01, 2023 @01:35PM (#36552628)
OnShape is pretty good, but I tend to think even hobbyists should be allowed to have private designs. That's a really weird and uncomfortable limitation that keeps me from recommending it to other people.
Re:Louis Rossmann: Autodesk turns lifetime licenses into sub... by jhallenworld on Saturday July 01, 2023 @01:45PM (#36552778)
Onshape is DOA for us- if Onshape goes away, so do your designs. They must know this is a huge issue, but still they provide no way to download your full work.
Re:Louis Rossmann: Autodesk turns lifetime licenses into sub... by award_ on Sunday July 02, 2023 @08:10AM (#36560709)
Thanks! I've seen this come up a few times with some youtubers I follow as well. Its got some limitations but might be just what I'm looking for.
Re:Louis Rossmann: Autodesk turns lifetime licenses into sub... by chrisldgk on Saturday July 01, 2023 @01:38PM (#36552675)
Not to condone any illegal activity from my point, but my personal approach to deceptive and consumer hostile business practices is using the software but not paying for it.
Re:Louis Rossmann: Autodesk turns lifetime licenses into sub... by jstarfish on Saturday July 01, 2023 @03:39PM (#36554218)
I used to think that way regarding Windows/VB6/Photoshop/Lightroom. It's like expressing your hatred for the Ku Klux Klan by signing up for their newsletter. That'll show them!

Looking back, it would have been more productive to develop proficiency in and give money/support to any underdog competitor.

Re:Louis Rossmann: Autodesk turns lifetime licenses into sub... by grogenaut on Saturday July 01, 2023 @03:38PM (#36554195)
The skills in these tools are transferrable. The designs not so much. Basically There's a way of thinking about and solving problems in these tools which is common, same as solving things in programming languages is similar but different and maybe different names. Annotations, lambdas, record types, functors they all have different names in different languages and commas and parens are used differently but when you learn one you get better at learning others. Another analogy is that it's a lot easier to learn to ski or snowboard when you can do the other one already than when you can do neither (even if you feel worse cause you know you can do better).

The hard part is if you build real ip up in these things that you lose when you get rug pulled. Or have no way to backup. F360 let's you export more complicated formats. But they all let you make stls which are a pita to reverse int drawings but you can.

It took me 50 hours to learn solid works, my first tool so I could kinda make what I wanted. Inventor took 3 to get used to. F360 an hour. The cost goes down.

Pick one your friends are using and design things.

Try openscad if you're more of a mathematical mind. Try blender if your an artist. Those are different yet still you're making things.

If you mentioned what you wanted to make I can point you further. There's many options.

Re:Louis Rossmann: Autodesk turns lifetime licenses into sub... by award_ on Sunday July 02, 2023 @08:12AM (#36560720)
Thank you for this reply! I'm really just getting into the design side of things now and started with some basic around-the-house stuff I could clobber together in tinkercad. I'll keep this in mind and try not to get bogged down on the 'what to start with' as much :-)
Re:Louis Rossmann: Autodesk turns lifetime licenses into sub... by benhurmarcel on Saturday July 01, 2023 @04:02PM (#36554476)
What you learn in any decent 3D CAD software will be easy to translate to another one. Fusion 360 is a great package, but it's not because it has particular features that don't exist elsewhere. You can learn CAD on Fusion and leave it for another package later.

What you'd lose are your designs however. 3D designs don't convert well.

But currently there is no 3D CAD software that is good for mechanical design and has a good and free license for hobbyists.

Re:Louis Rossmann: Autodesk turns lifetime licenses into sub... by wakeupcall on Monday July 03, 2023 @06:49AM (#36571169)
For a non-commercial setting I would never touch anything autodesk. You can clearly see how f360 was changed from maker-friendly price to essentially the same price as a professional cad license within a few years with a clear directed strategy to capture the market. I might still be ok if you consider it includes cam/sim, but again only in a professional context. And make no mistake, the software is cloud+subscription only. f360 doesn't allow you to work on assemblies when offline, or export meshes, and some other arbitrary restrictions that make no sense except to limit offline mode.

If you have the money, and you're fine with windows, I would suggest alibre with the offline license as one of the few options available.

I've bitten the bullet and went with a mixture of freecad/openscad/cadquery/solvespace for my hobby designs. It's more work due to the limits, but zero regrets.