This attitude that: if it ain't broke, don't destroy it, is something I'm finding myself valuing increasingly. I use Stylish to make HN look a bit more readable and prettier, and beyond that, it functions exactly how I want it to and I'm glad to see that the institutional momentum here is a core value.

> If it ain't broke, don't destroy it.

That's actually a nice way of putting it! Better than the "fix" version, because this is clear on the consequences.

I feel like it might be applied to everything from OS UI design (Windows 11), web platform redesigns (Google's icons) to whatever is going on with social media (the silly enshittification term describes this) and many other things.

Yeah, it really is "destroy".

Let's say that you are the proud owner of a goose that lays golden eggs. "fixing" would be switching it to a different feed that might make it more productive, or it might make it sick. But this year the trend is to give it a few good kicks to see if that helps.

All I do is hit cmd+plus to increase the font size.

Move slowly and preserve things.

https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que...

Take a look at my profile and CSS hacks, if you're interested.

(I've a slightly more updated set locally, can share those if requested.)

I appreciate that attitude and value it myself, but I like to point out that it is not without risk.

If the world around HN (including its community) changes stasis can damage or kill it as well.

Specifically regarding the issue of the original posting:

- HN is already an important data source for large language model training.

- To the best of my knowledge there is no freely downloadable and current data dump of HN.

- The HN-API does not offer all the data that scraping can get. For example if a post had ever hit the front page or the highest front page position reached is an interesting data point that is missing.

- The Algolia-HN-API has the same limitations.

In my opinion this will lead to increased usage of the API and increased scraping which all costs money. HN might be forced to find a solution for this.

I don't expect HN give a fuck about the scraping. It's pure HTML, no images, probably cached all to hell for users who aren't logged in anyway.

The one thing I see as a future issue is that people are starting to post comments that clearly look like they were manufactured by ChatGPT and friends. Or that could just be the way some people talk and I've spent too long with ChatGPT now and start to smell it everywhere.

HN does have performace / capacity issues, and you'll find that if you're crawling the site rapidly, you'll quickly find your IP banned.

I've had that happen even under manual browsing (when logged out). My front-page analytics project hit that limit quickly (within about 30 request, probably less). Adding in a reasonable delay got around that.

Keep in mind that a lot of Web infrastructure tends over time to operate just at the edge of stability, as capacity costs money.

I mean, given that AI might be trained on HN, maybe it’s ChatGPT saying things that sound like HN commenters…

Elon says he used it as a way to stop AI data scraping because the servers were suddenly hit by a large load.... (As a weird form of DDOS shielding in other words)

HN could be hit with such a large load too, since we have pretty good and lengthy discussion here, good for AI data training.

Would you believe it a valid tool to keep the community happy?

Since I doubt we would be happy if we can't access the site because some AI decided this was the time to scrape, either.

I agree that it could become a problem but I'd rather wait until the problem shows itself clearly, rather than (potentially) over-reacting in advance. Sometimes the medicine turns out to be worse than the disease; plus it's a better fit for being lazy.

Just innovate one thing: show a counter how many new replies you have since last visit.

* * *

One number is notification hell?

This might interest you,

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22930391

[dang]: "Push notifications seem to jack up the nervous system in a way that's good for engagement but not necessarily for users..."

Who talked about push notifications?

I’ve been here for 6 years and the format is still a breath of fresh air when I come back from things like Twitter or Reddit.

It’s not that I’m opposed to change really. I love good ideas, and being surprised by new and unfamiliar things is usually a joy. Communication via text is hard to improve upon though, and I’m not convinced any major social media platforms have found ways to improve this in any meaningful ways.

I want to read interesting things and discuss them with interesting people. This is hard on most platforms. HN makes it easier than everything else I use.

I grew up on the 'modern web' and I love HN's format the most.

The choice is not between no change and drastic change, but selecting a rate of change that is appropriate. Things which do not change, die, as the only thing that is constant is change. Change or be changed.

I visit a few sites that never changed (or at least changed things only few were even aware of) and they live long enough to lose count of hordes of change-praisers appear and die.

I believe this eternal loop of change is a trap that impatient people force themselves in. Instead of accustoming and learning the current state, they rush into another one with a change that has unclear implications. As a result, they never get where they are and lose any track of where they were or where they’re heading at. Their only comfort can be found in a constant change.

These few sites are like home to me. One of them I visit with years-long pauses and every time I return it’s the same user experience. That’s invaluable.

I'd be curious to hear about some of those sites.

Sharks haven't changed in about 450 million years. There are designs that just work and don't need to change unless the environment changes drastically.

Well, actually...

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/reef-sharks-are-di...

https://www.fishersci.com/us/en/scientific-products/publicat...

https://www.science.org/content/article/great-white-sharks-h...

We've actually made many changes to HN over the years, but almost all have been subtle enough that most users don't notice.

You did say, recently, that you don't like the idea of paid third-party apps using the HN API.[0]

I thought that was an odd change for HN. After all, the majority of the value still accrues to the HN owners. In fact, user's that are prepared to pay for an app to access a free website largely comprised of adverts, are typically more valuable than the rest. Those users have money to burn and skin in the game!

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36363325

That's a fine point. I just get uncomfortable with it because the currency of HN should be curiosity, not money, so energetically it doesn't feel like a good fit.

It's ambiguous what GP refers to as "next", but if it's the Eternal September part, I believe HN unfortunately already suffers a lot from it. In my subjective opinion, comment quality took a nosedive in the past 2-3 months or so. That said, I have no idea how to fix it, if it needs fixing at all.

I'm not saying you're wrong and anyway it is hard, if not impossible, to evaluate objectively—but I can tell you two things for sure. One is that people have been saying more or less exactly this about HN for at least 15 years; the other is that HN is subject to a lot of random fluctuations, and random swings tend to get interpreted by humans as long-term trends—not because they are, but because that is what humans do.

In addition to my sibling comment: HN also steps in to quash developing negative patterns in all sorts of ways. There's a long list of banned sites, there is the flamewar detector (though I've ... questions ... about that), dupes detection (or flagging), there are weightings and penalties given to various sites. I believe also some keyword and other patterns are looked for as well, "Reddit" being among ones dang's recently discussed.

So yes, occasionally some new pattern or trend will emerge, but HN adapts to those fairly quickly.

* * *

More on "UNCLASSIFIED": there are 36,520 of those sites.

It's not practical to list all of them. But we can randomly sample. And large-sample statistics start to apply at about n=30, so let's just grab 30 of those sites at random using `sort -R | head -30`:

   1  sfg.io
   1  extroverteddeveloper.com
   2  letmego.com
   1  thestrad.com
   2  bombmagazine.org
   1  domlaut.com
   1  bootstrap.io
   1  jumpdriveair.com
   2  desmos.com
   1  leo32345.com
   1  echopen.org
   1  schd.ws
   1  web3us.com
   7  akkartik.name
   1  bcardarella.com
   1  cancerletter.com
   1  platinumgames.com
   1  industrytap.com
   2  worldoftea.org
   1  motion.ai
   1  vectorly.io
   2  enterprise.google.com
   1  lift-heavy.com
   1  davidpeter.me
   1  panoye.com
   3  thestrategybridge.org
   2  fontsquirrel.com
   1  kettunen.io
   1  moogfoundation.org
   2  elekslabs.com

That's a few foundations, a few blogs, a corporate site (enterprise.google.com), and something about tea, all with a small number of posts (1--7).

I'm looking at some slightly larger samples (60--100) here on my own system, and can actually make some comparisons across samples (to see how much variance there is) which can give some more information on tuning what I would expect to find under the "UNCLASSIFIED" sites.

I don’t know how much running the site costs, but I hope the people paying for it keep agreeing with that sentiment.

They have so far and have reason to continue to, not just because of how they feel about HN but because the economics of curiosity are a good fit for YC's business. That's the miracle (I would even say) about HN - it occupies a sweet spot where it can be funded to just be good*, and the economics work because it's in the interests of the business.

I've written about this a fair bit over the years if anyone wants more: https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&so...

* ("good" macroexpands to "as good as possible under the circumstances")

Thanks for that. You’re about the only website I trust not to turn on me these days.

Agreed. Align models with happiness.

One welcome addition would be support for embedded images - sometimes you need to share some screenshots. For example right now, I am seeing rate limiting messsages from Twitter, from the normal account.

But may be it will increase your costs a lot.

I think of features like this on a regular basis that this site needs. Then I catch myself. It's feature-creep like that which has killed practically everything else.

oh god no.

posts not being able to submit images is a huge part of what makes HN valuable (to me).

once HN needs to handle images, HN falls apart

Fair enough! Personally one thing I would like is some sort of inbox functionality to notify you if someone replies to your comment, but can definitely live without it!

I'd love to see the source control change log for HN. I can't even remember a single visible change in all the years I've been a user. I think there have been a few under the surface though.

I wish all the other sites on the Internet would wake up every morning, look at their TODO list and say "Nah, not today."