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Re:Show HN: Serverless VPN, pay as you go, unlimited devices... by lionkor on Wednesday June 28, 2023 @04:24PM (#36512064)
I've always wondered, is there no burden of proof on the prosecution to prove it was you, especially with a p2p VPN installed?
Re:Show HN: Serverless VPN, pay as you go, unlimited devices... by belval on Wednesday June 28, 2023 @04:27PM (#36512110)
In a perfect world for sure, but in practice if there is any rumor that something as socially toxic as that went through your network, ultimately your reputation is ruined regardless of the legal outcome.
Re:Show HN: Serverless VPN, pay as you go, unlimited devices... by stronglikedan on Wednesday June 28, 2023 @04:30PM (#36512161)
Not to mention your bank account being ruined by defense attorneys.
Re:Show HN: Serverless VPN, pay as you go, unlimited devices... by spurgu on Wednesday June 28, 2023 @04:29PM (#36512148)
Would you want to turn over your computer to a forensics expert to prove your innocence?

I would hope that authorities at least would try to build an actual case against you and not just raid your home because of some fraudulent traffic from your IP. I might be too optimistic in that regard.

Re:Show HN: Serverless VPN, pay as you go, unlimited devices... by BLKNSLVR on Wednesday June 28, 2023 @05:18PM (#36512741)
I can vouch for suspected fraudulent traffic being enough for authorities to warrant a raid.
Re:Show HN: Serverless VPN, pay as you go, unlimited devices... by BolexNOLA on Wednesday June 28, 2023 @05:23PM (#36512793)
I’m guessing you can’t elaborate lol
Re:Show HN: Serverless VPN, pay as you go, unlimited devices... by BLKNSLVR on Wednesday June 28, 2023 @05:35PM (#36512931)
I'd like to write up the details sooner rather than later, and I've got pages of notes I've written, but

1: it makes me angry to think about it

2: I have other, positive things I'd rather do

It took them 8 months to return the ~$10k of gear they "stole" from me, and they found nothing.

No apology, no explanation of how I was somehow caught up in their data, just "come collect your stuff".

Ironically, they traumatized my kids (I don't think they even did any background checks on me - I don't believe they even knew there were kids in the house before they barged in).

Luckily my kids are resilient and we can sometimes even joke (bitterly) about it.

Re:Show HN: Serverless VPN, pay as you go, unlimited devices... by spurgu on Wednesday June 28, 2023 @05:53PM (#36513158)
Oh man, that sounds horrible. Was this in the US?
Re:Show HN: Serverless VPN, pay as you go, unlimited devices... by BLKNSLVR on Wednesday June 28, 2023 @06:03PM (#36513269)
Australia, so at least we didn't get guns shoved in our faces.

I should also make the point that, with one exception, the officers conducting the raid were polite.

Re:Show HN: Serverless VPN, pay as you go, unlimited devices... by BolexNOLA on Wednesday June 28, 2023 @09:19PM (#36515122)
Totally understand and my apologies for prying!
Re:Show HN: Serverless VPN, pay as you go, unlimited devices... by BLKNSLVR on Wednesday June 28, 2023 @09:51PM (#36515353)
All good, I wouldn't have replied if I wasn't up to it.

Don't feel bad for asking.

I do want to "get it out", and one of the things holding me back is "what's the best way of doing it" (along with "what's not going to invite further negative police attention").

Along with a family member, we've approached our local government representative for advice on how to go about pursuing some kind of action that might help "make the system better" to minimise the incidents of innocent parties being subjected to the violence of the state, but it's mostly been a dead end. But I also don't want it to be what defines the rest of my life either, and pursuing this kind of thing could easily end up eating who I am currently (and I'm quite happy with my current self).

I also don't want media attention, really, in any context.

Now I'm mostly just writing this to understand my own motivations...

Re:Show HN: Serverless VPN, pay as you go, unlimited devices... by BolexNOLA on Sunday July 02, 2023 @08:54AM (#36561038)
> But I also don't want it to be what defines the rest of my life either, and pursuing this kind of thing could easily end up eating who I am currently (and I'm quite happy with my current self). I also don't want media attention, really, in any context. Now I'm mostly just writing this to understand my own motivations...

Man I really feel this part, though admittedly for a shorter-lived and much simpler reason so I don’t want you to think that I think I fully get it.

My wife and I had two officers walk into our apartment when we were a younger couple. Unannounced, 1 or 2am. Just lights shining around and I jumped up looking for a blunt object. They then announced themselves. Mind you we live in an incredibly gun, friendly state, so if they have done this is somebody else, it is incredibly likely they would’ve had a gun drawn on them, and who knows how it would have gone down. They let themselves in because “the door was unlocked and they were looking for someone.” Mind you to get to our apartment wasn’t a simple thing. You had to walk around a gravel parking lot and up these rear steps. We lived above a restaurant and all that jazz.

I didn’t do anything about it after they left. I just kind of wanted to forget the situation and not think about what could have been. Think god I am white and didn’t have a gun on me, I’ll just leave it at that.

We didn’t even talk about it until probably 5 or 6 years later. What you wrote above made me better realize why.

Re:Show HN: Serverless VPN, pay as you go, unlimited devices... by lionkor on Wednesday June 28, 2023 @05:49PM (#36513114)
That is NOT how burden of proof works
Re:Show HN: Serverless VPN, pay as you go, unlimited devices... by orangea on Wednesday June 28, 2023 @04:37PM (#36512254)
I have no idea but maybe it would count as aiding and abetting.
Re:Show HN: Serverless VPN, pay as you go, unlimited devices... by lionkor on Wednesday June 28, 2023 @05:51PM (#36513127)
That's a really good point. It could be claimed that you must have known of the possibility and that you support it, etc
Re:Show HN: Serverless VPN, pay as you go, unlimited devices... by genocidicbunny on Wednesday June 28, 2023 @05:08PM (#36512640)
It would be a pyrrhic victory for you even if you prove it wasn't you that was downloading it. Your name is going to be in court documents associated with prosecution over csam or other illegal materials. This information will be easily found. If you're the first case of it's kind, you will also have to deal with whatever tales the media spins about this. If you're somewhere like Florida, you might end up with your photo next to a label of 'pedophile' being plastered publicly.

A lot of people will simply see the headline, assume you're guilty and treat you as such. And a lot of people are willing to treat those they think are pedophiles very very badly (there was a case recently where a murderer serving life in jail killed his pedophile cellmate) Anyone that knows about this incident will probably never allow you to be around kids unattended, regardless of your innocence. You will be a social pariah.

Innocent until proven guilty had to be enshrined in law because most people will treat you guilty until proven innocent, and they don't have much concern about forgetting the 'proven innocent' bit.

Re:Show HN: Serverless VPN, pay as you go, unlimited devices... by Cyph0n on Wednesday June 28, 2023 @05:43PM (#36513036)
No need to even be in jail for that to happen: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/melbourne/article-12217413/...
Re:Show HN: Serverless VPN, pay as you go, unlimited devices... by thefounder on Wednesday June 28, 2023 @05:21PM (#36512770)
So I guess it's time to disconnect from the internet, at least your PC b/c you can't be certain it's not used as a vpn/proxy service through an exploit or rough app.
Re:Show HN: Serverless VPN, pay as you go, unlimited devices... by TechBro8615 on Wednesday June 28, 2023 @05:31PM (#36512884)
As long as p2p exit nodes are relatively uncommon, it will be relatively unbelievable for you to claim that "someone else" was doing the illegal things on your network.

But if p2p exit nodes were orders of magnitude more common, then the burden of proof would indisputably be the responsibility of the prosecutors, since anyone could credibly claim "someone else did it."

And that's why this trope of "but what if someone does bad stuff on your network?!" is so frustratingly self-defeating: if everyone just ignored that risk, then everyone could have a p2p exit node, and the risk would be mitigated. It's a sort of prisoner's dilemma where nobody wants to be the early adopter of a system that would, on the whole, benefit all of us.

A society is difficult to surveil when everyone uses Tor as both a client and an exit node, and onion routing is the default method of exchanging packets (some might say it should have been incorporated into the original design of the internet). So it's perhaps worth noting that adversaries of society, such as the NSA or FBI, have a great incentive to perpetuate fearmongering about p2p networks and the threat of "but whatabout muh criminals on muh network!"

If you're reading this, maybe it's time to setup a Tor relay (with config flag `ExitRelay 1`).

Re:Show HN: Serverless VPN, pay as you go, unlimited devices... by genocidicbunny on Wednesday June 28, 2023 @05:43PM (#36513042)
> But if p2p exit nodes were orders of magnitude more common, then the burden of proof would indisputably be the responsibility of the prosecutors, since anyone could credibly claim "someone else did it."

I think I'm more cynical about our justice system, but the way I see it, this just gives them ammunition to go after anybody on a whim. Simply getting tangled up in the justice system, even if innocent, is an expensive and stressful thing. Most of us do not have the resources to just have a dedicated team of lawyers taking care of everything. So if everyone was running a Tor exit node, and it was known that there was CSAM accessed through some of them, an overzealous prosecutor could probably push through at least a search warrant of your computers because as a Tor exit node runner, there's a reasonable chance that CSAM was accessed via your node. You're not getting your stuff back for a while if that happens.

Re:Show HN: Serverless VPN, pay as you go, unlimited devices... by TechBro8615 on Wednesday June 28, 2023 @05:54PM (#36513169)
I agree, but that's why I labeled it a prisoner's dilemma. If literally everyone ran an exit node, then if prosecutors wanted to assume that any exit node facilitated the transfer of illegal material, then they would need to find other ways of proving criminality other than what packets were sent from your IP address. They can't seize everyone's hardware. If they wanted to obtain a warrant for you, they'd need more probable cause than "he's running an exit node" (because everyone runs an exit node).

As it stands, there's already a certain level of injustice, because corporations like Google and Microsoft facilitate all sorts of illegal communications, and the worst that happens is they get a letter from the feds asking them nicely for their subscriber's information. The investigators don't jump to the conclusion that the CEO of Google is a child predator and seize all the Google servers. But for an independent system admin on a home network, that's exactly what they do, even though there's no fundamental difference other than the size of the operation (and the implicit assumption that exit relays are unusual, which is the unfair assumption I'm trying to draw attention to as an explanation for lack of plausible deniability on the part of the idealistic sysadmin in a world where exit nodes are unusual).

Re:Show HN: Serverless VPN, pay as you go, unlimited devices... by genocidicbunny on Wednesday June 28, 2023 @06:07PM (#36513311)
> If literally everyone ran an exit node

This is impossible in practice though, so while an interesting thought experiment, it has little bearing on reality. Your local court isn't going to be running a Tor exit node on their systems. Your friendly nearby S&P500 corp isn't going to be running Tor exit nodes on their systems. Your local public library probably won't either.

> They can't seize everyone's hardware.

With your thought experiment, yes, but in practice that's not going to be the case. You're more likely to end up with very selective enforcement instead -- if you run a Tor exit node, the justice system can effectively blackmail you because at the very least they can cause you a very expensive headache. "Shame if we had to get a search warrant to make sure it wasn't you downloading some CSAM"

Re:Show HN: Serverless VPN, pay as you go, unlimited devices... by crtasm on Wednesday June 28, 2023 @07:15PM (#36514012)
Re:Show HN: Serverless VPN, pay as you go, unlimited devices... by midasuni on Wednesday June 28, 2023 @06:07PM (#36513310)
Legality aside maybe I simply don’t want people using my computer to share images of children
Re:Show HN: Serverless VPN, pay as you go, unlimited devices... by TechBro8615 on Wednesday June 28, 2023 @06:12PM (#36513362)
Would you want to provide infrastructure for Russian and Chinese citizens to access the parts of the internet that are censored by their autocratic regimes? What if the only way to do that also requires incurring a risk that a child predator might use your computer too?
Re:Show HN: Serverless VPN, pay as you go, unlimited devices... by Syonyk on Wednesday June 28, 2023 @05:33PM (#36512905)
If you want the "full experience," just set yourself up as a Tor exit node. You'll rapidly find it's impossible to use the internet from the same connection. VPN services are more and more falling into the same category. Even just "cloud provider" IP ranges are broken often enough to be noticeable - I run an Outline VPN on DigitalOcean droplets every now and then, and I've found that that's enough to get me 403'd from a lot of sites.

"Arrest first, deal with nerds protesting their innocence later" still involves getting arrested.