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Re:Iron Fuel Shows Its Mettle by obblekk on Friday June 23, 2023 @11:19AM (#36448062)
> 0.3% of the Iron-oxide becomes nanoparticles which cannot be converted back into Iron.

At that rate, 50% of the initial iron will be gone in 333 cycles of iron -> iron oxide -> iron.

This a hard type of energy source to reason about:

1. It's not a pure fuel and acts like a battery most of the time, but it's also not renewable

2. Iron is extremely abundant on Earth, but it requires mining and processing to extract

3. Iron oxide in nanoparticle size would likely be a pollutant and hazardous to human health, not something that will break down quickly and harmlessly.

The high fuel density and low explosiveness may make it a good use case in some niches, but I imagine it's actually more scalable and healthy to burn jet fuel and reproduce it from renewable powered carbon capture, where density is needed.

Re:Iron Fuel Shows Its Mettle by umvi on Friday June 23, 2023 @11:33AM (#36448295)
> The nanoparticles are not emitted in the atmosphere but captured in a HEPA filter.

If that's true, your point #3 is moot. And if the nano particles can be captured by a filter, maybe we could design filters specifically for iron oxide nano particles that would allow the nano particles to be extracted

> but I imagine it's actually more scalable and healthy to burn jet fuel and reproduce it from renewable powered carbon capture, where density is needed.

You're saying capture carbon from CO2 and turn it into kerosene? I tried googling around and everywhere I look it seems like this is currently way more difficult than renewable iron fuel (https://www.planet.veolia.com/en/how-produce-kerosene-co2).

Re:Iron Fuel Shows Its Mettle by a3w on Friday June 23, 2023 @11:42AM (#36448432)
Cherry-picking the fuel for jets example makes sense, since somehow we don´t expect aviation to transition completely to airscrews.

As for the disposal of HEPA filteres loaded with air-stable inorganics, that still is pollution, only the kind of waste you store safely, and if not give people cancer, but highly localized so.

Re:Iron Fuel Shows Its Mettle by proto-n on Friday June 23, 2023 @11:27AM (#36448186)
Is iron oxide magnetic in nanoparticle size? Because if it is, then we can probably very efficiently filter it before releasing it into the atmosphere.
Re:Iron Fuel Shows Its Mettle by juujian on Friday June 23, 2023 @11:29AM (#36448232)
The article mentions a HEPA filter.
Re:Iron Fuel Shows Its Mettle by sudhirj on Friday June 23, 2023 @11:44AM (#36448462)
That’s still a mess, if the particles are magnetic a magnet will be a way cleaner and more effective filter.
Re:Iron Fuel Shows Its Mettle by sacnoradhq on Sunday June 25, 2023 @07:24AM (#36467067)
Unfortunately, you're mistaken. In practice, iron(iii) oxide is barely paramagnetic and the particles are likely well above the Curie point and possibly at the melting point.
Re:Iron Fuel Shows Its Mettle by thsksbd on Friday June 23, 2023 @11:30AM (#36448252)
iron oxide magnetic properties depend on its oxidation state, temperature and particle size.
Re:Iron Fuel Shows Its Mettle by 13of40 on Friday June 23, 2023 @11:47AM (#36448517)
Not sure why this is dead, but AFAIK magnetism in iron and steel is dependent on "domains" of iron molecules that are aligned in a crystal structure so the magnetic effect isn't just scattered to all directions. That's why some kinds of stainless steel aren't magnetic - the adulturant elements break up the crystal structure. In this case I think the question would be whether these particles are big enough to form a "domain" and become magnetic.
Re:Iron Fuel Shows Its Mettle by pixl97 on Friday June 23, 2023 @06:07PM (#36452802)
If the output is iron oxide, no it is only very very weakly magnetic.
Re:Iron Fuel Shows Its Mettle by sacnoradhq on Sunday June 25, 2023 @07:22AM (#36467060)
And if iron(III) oxide is near the melting point, it's unlikely to be magnetic and may not even be paramagnetic. This would be an interesting lab experiment: heat a sample to 1500 C exactly and test for paramagnetic properties.
Re:Iron Fuel Shows Its Mettle by idiotsecant on Friday June 23, 2023 @12:13PM (#36448894)
Even if it isn't we are very good at filtering materials from exhaust gasses. Something like a wet electrostatic precipitator is probably overkill, but would do the job without having to care about magnetic properties.
Re:Iron Fuel Shows Its Mettle by nabla9 on Friday June 23, 2023 @12:19PM (#36448987)
Traditional methods or their combination: wet scrubber, electrostatic precipitator or bag filters will do the job.
Re:Iron Fuel Shows Its Mettle by juujian on Friday June 23, 2023 @11:29AM (#36448224)
Might be possible to create a completely closed system to address the loss?

I am more concerned/confused by the fact that they use hydrogen to reduce the iron. That seems like a very convoluted process, why not use the hydrogen generate heat instead? Yes, it has much lower density, but it has advantages to make up for it, for instance the fact that you don't need to worry about evaporation, leakage, filters, all that at all.

Re:Iron Fuel Shows Its Mettle by PaulHoule on Friday June 23, 2023 @11:48AM (#36448527)
Hydrogen is devilishly hard to transport and store. Hydrogen packs a lot of energy per gram, but the density is so low. You need a huge tank if you compress it as a gas, you can liquefy it but the density is still not great, it takes a lot of energy, and you have to deal with this:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spin_isomers_of_hydrogen

freshly liquefied hydrogen contains a lot of stored energy in that form which will be released over time and cause quite a bit to vaporize, for long term storage you have to release that energy.

Thus people have looked at all sorts of schemes for storing hydrogen such as absorbing it in metals like palladium, metal hydrides, chemical carriers such as ammonia, methane, etc.

Re:Iron Fuel Shows Its Mettle by kaliszad on Friday June 23, 2023 @12:35PM (#36449203)
Sodium would be a much better proposition. With NaOH, you can create a closed cycle. The electrolysis of NaOH is the well known Castner process, a consumable metal anode fuel cell with sodium is also well known (expired Patent: US3730776A by Lockheed) More details and overlap with other approaches: https://orgpad.com/s/5BfLP-cxj-7

Sodium has higher energy density (3.5 kWh/L) than liquid hydrogen, there is no energy needed to store it and no catalyst is needed for the fuel cell because sodium is so reactive with water. The fuel cell is rather easy to construct (I know somebody, who has done it in a garage). NaOH solution is very caustic but also neutralizes well naturally without long term effects at least in comparison to crude oil that seems to be the better proposition. And of course sodium is everywhere, where NaCl - table salt is.

Re:Iron Fuel Shows Its Mettle by jerf on Friday June 23, 2023 @11:56AM (#36448644)
To a first approximation, Earth is a big ball of iron, so losing 50% of the iron in 333 cycles doesn't seem like that big a deal. Getting more iron is an energy issue rather than an availability issue.

I'm also somewhat concerned about the nanoparticle's effect on living things. It is likely that it is only a question of local exposure, as in general once they get out they should still rust in some relatively short period of time, and as Earth is the aforementioned big ball of iron, a bit of rust in the environment is quite unlikely to hurt anything because if it could hurt a thing that thing would already be dead, but locally nanoparticles would be something weird and I could see breathing them could be problematic. It is also entirely possible that it is safe up to surprisingly absurd levels too (your body is familiar with iron, and while there are toxic doses of iron you're not getting to them with nanoparticle exposure any time soon), it would just be something that would need some study.

Re:Iron Fuel Shows Its Mettle by marcosdumay on Friday June 23, 2023 @12:29PM (#36449120)
> once they get out they should still rust in some relatively short period of time

Nanoparticles of iron oxide are already rust.

There is certainly some inorganic phenomenon that will turn it into normal, aggregated rust. It probably requires water and some time.

But those particles sound like the kind of thing that will stay for years on the atmosphere, and contaminate every living thing. And yeah, they are probably safe in some surprisingly large amount, so whatever direction it goes, we will only know after we start doing it.

Re:Iron Fuel Shows Its Mettle by mrguyorama on Friday June 23, 2023 @04:48PM (#36451997)
Maybe then we could stop putting iron filings in children's cereal as a supplement.
Re:Iron Fuel Shows Its Mettle by rsaesha on Friday June 23, 2023 @12:22PM (#36449020)
>Earth is a big ball of iron.

No it's not.

Inside the crust both Si and Al are more common.

There is plenty of Fe, which is all in oxide form. Mining and processing required.

Re:Iron Fuel Shows Its Mettle by dredmorbius on Saturday June 24, 2023 @09:02AM (#36458352)
Shrug.

Iron is abundant on Earth, including within the crust, where it's the fourth most abundant element (after Oxygen, silicon, and aluminium), roughly 5% by mass. And yes, considerably more prevalent in the core. Iron and oxygen account for roughly 32% of Earth's total mass, each, the largest proportion of any element.

<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earth_mass>

Sure, not as abundant as silicates. But nowhere near as rare as gold, platinum, and rhodium. Or even copper, silver, or lead.

<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abundance_of_elements_in_Earth...>

There's even a fair bit of it flowing though your veins and arteries right now.

And yes, the major ore deposits are old. Most are BIFs (banded iron formations), and date to 1 bya or 3.5 bya, laid down by early oceanic algae for the most part.

Sometimes it's more than fine to allow a slight exaggeration to pass without litigating it to death.

Re:Iron Fuel Shows Its Mettle by rsaesha on Saturday June 24, 2023 @06:07PM (#36463088)
Let's be reasonable here, mantle and nucleus iron don't matter to this analysis.

Crust iron is all oxide. Fe at 5% average. In some locations obviously more concentrated up to 90% ore. Not all sites are viable for mining, and this is very important to understand. Just because there is plenty of iron out there doesn't mean all of it is commercial grade.

This means energy input to turn iron oxide into iron, which the article claims could be used as fuel and/or long term energy storage.

-Fuel I don't believe for a second.

-Energy storage it's a maybe. It needs to commercially beat plenty of options. Which to me seems unlikely since the path still includes heat and steam engine which would incurr at a cicle loss of at least 50%. And this being conservative etc. Would mean a steam engine operated in a very narrow power band - which would mean a baselevel powerplant not a peaker powerplant. And didn't yet consider other possible losses, as for one, the Fe degradation over time. Energy cycles that count on heat and engine are wasteful. Could this waste be compensated by a much cheaper capex and/or opex relative to Li or similar batteries? That's a big Maybe.

I myself want to believe there is a solution to renewables intermittency. But on this one in particular, I'm quite bearish for the reasons above.

Re:Iron Fuel Shows Its Mettle by dredmorbius on Saturday June 24, 2023 @08:30PM (#36464067)
The proposal is clearly for energy storage, not as a primary energy source.

To that extent, it resembles other synfuel concepts. The principle difference being that iron-as-energy-storage entails reduction rather than synthesis.

There's a lot to be said for options which provide long-term, "shelf-stable", environmentally-benign, high-volume energy storage. I've looked with interest on petroleum-analogue hydrocarbon synthesis (Fisher-Tropf) and alcohol (Sabattier) processes for some years. Both have long (multi-decadal, approaching a century) of established use. Yes, the overall process is lossy (as little as 15% net energy recovery), but there are applications for which there are very few alternatives: powered heavier-than-air flight, marine transport, mobile use, off-grid primary or back-up power systems, heating, and industrial applications.

I think I'd made abundantly clear that the abundance question is pedantry.

Re:Iron Fuel Shows Its Mettle by rsaesha on Sunday June 25, 2023 @03:59PM (#36471991)
The challenge of using synthesized chemicals for energy storage exists for quite some time indeed. For aviation and marine there may be no other option outside of synthetic fuels, I agree.

Can this scale up? Or is this a small scale only solution?

Transportation. How much energy would a truck be able to move? How does it compare to a tank truck? Weight is absolutely relevant here.

Also, production. Consider that reducing iron is measured by millions of tons per year per plant, and right now, it's done burning it with plain old coal.

Seems very odd to me the subtitle of the news is 'carbon free fuel'. That alone is a massive bullshit indicator, but I digress.

How something that may have a 10% global energy recovery efficiency could beat a pure redox power storage solution? This question has been avoided so far.

Re:Iron Fuel Shows Its Mettle by dredmorbius on Sunday June 25, 2023 @09:09PM (#36474460)
Germany and South Africa have both operated coal-to-liquids (Fisher-Tropsch) at industrial scale. Germany during WWII, South Africa from the 1940s or 1950s onwards (I'm not certain if it's still in process). Both nations had ample coal reserves but little petroleum.

I became aware of the prospect of synthesis from captured CO2 + hydrogen (from electrolysis) from a US Naval Research Lab study around 2015. Those papers had ... misleadingly-truncated citations, dating back only to the 1990s. It turns out that hydrocarbon synfuels were first proposed in the 1960s, by M. King Hubbert and studied at Brookhaven National Labs and M.I.T.

Google had an X Project devoted to the idea as well, though ran into insurmountable cost barriers.

Scaling seems to be a major concern, though the process does work at experimental scales, and produces usable fuel. It seems worth continued research based on the potential advantages, even if costs remain higher than fossil fuels. (The USNRL research suggested "competitive" costs, particularly for in situ military fuel generation, notably in aircraft carrier task groups which have ample supplies of nuclear energy, but need fuel for aircraft.)

Battery storage has numerous limitations: low energy density by both volume and weight, and the fact that whilst fuel burns off during flight (and accounts for 50% or more of take-off weight), batteries don't. In the case of metal-air batteries (iron and aluminium have both been proposed), as the redox reaction progresses, the battery gains mass as oxygen from the atmosphere is bonded to it. This poses problems for flight, and even ground-based transport tends not to work well with batteries at large scale.

Re:Iron Fuel Shows Its Mettle by onlyrealcuzzo on Friday June 23, 2023 @04:51PM (#36452028)
> so losing 50% of the iron in 333 cycles doesn't seem like that big a deal.

Where does the Iron go??? It's not like Fission or Fusion is happening, right?!

Re:Iron Fuel Shows Its Mettle by DennisP on Saturday June 24, 2023 @11:04AM (#36459291)
Per the article, it goes into the HEPA filter. After that, recover it or dispose of it as you see fit.
Re:Iron Fuel Shows Its Mettle by nick-of-time on Saturday June 24, 2023 @03:36AM (#36456461)
> To a first approximation, Earth is a big ball of iron

This is a totally useless thing to say unless you have secret technology for core mining.

Re:Iron Fuel Shows Its Mettle by jjk166 on Friday June 23, 2023 @12:00PM (#36448702)
The nanoparticles can't be converted back to iron in this process, but they can still be turned back into iron by other processes. No system is truly closed loop, but this is more closed loop than any other energy-to-fuel system.

You need to extract the feedstocks for any energy-to-fuel system. Iron is cheap and simple to extract, compared to say carbon from the atmosphere.

The nanoparticles do not get released to the environment. Emissions from burning carbon based fuels also include pollutants that are hazardous to human health.

Re:Iron Fuel Shows Its Mettle by idiotsecant on Friday June 23, 2023 @12:11PM (#36448860)
> Emissions from burning carbon based fuels also include pollutants that are hazardous to human health.

Which do get released into the environment in quite large quantities!

Re:Iron Fuel Shows Its Mettle by mirekrusin on Friday June 23, 2023 @12:38PM (#36449225)
Can't you just make pulsating/spinning magnet to capture it?
Re:Iron Fuel Shows Its Mettle by sacnoradhq on Sunday June 25, 2023 @07:25AM (#36467076)
What half-bakery are you imagining? This won't work with blazing hot rust nanoparticles.