The kind of relationship you described sounds terrible to be in. I hope this isn’t the norm.

ah yes, the "Just be yourself" guy swoops in with a hot take but no actual information. so what you're saying is:

1. be out of shape 2. be poor and worry about bills 3. be needy and indecisive 4. dress like shit 5. be terrible at sex and unwilling to improve 6. if you're short and non-white this doesn't matter at all, this is literally not a factor 7. get upset when a woman breaks up with you 8. don't persist, just give up, it's hopeless

That's the evolutionary leetcode portion of the interview.

Just my N=1 here, but I've actually run the self-improvement gamut and got results out of it - had a year where I went from never having held hands with a girl to sleeping around quite a bit. I think the self-improvement type of vibe tends to attract girls who are more into short term things, which leads to burnout. By this I mean, if you are a guy who looks very good/masculine, are good at flirting, etc but just are not the type of guy that a girl would want to bring home or show to friends due to some immediately-visible perceived deficiency (like race, height, etc.), you become typecast as the "experiment" (i.e. an easily-accessible alternative to what they normally go for, a one-time thing), the "rebound guy" to get over an ex, or part of a girl's "exploratory phase", etc. - you aren't a priority for her and she cares less about you than the already-little amount you might care about her.

After getting burned a few times I realized that what I "wanted" was to sleep with a lot of girls, but what I "actually wanted" was to sleep with a lot of girls who want me more than I want them (i.e. an egotistical drive) - emphasis on the "want me more than I want them" part. It's an important distinction, and the fantasy is to be the guy who all the "good girls" (i.e. the relationship-oriented girls who don't easily fall for guys) fall deeply in love with and would do anything for but can't pin down, and this narrative is pursued as a goal because it provides a sense of security ("there will always be people who love me"). In reality you just attract many girls who might not even want a relationship, and that fantasy sense of security will cease to exist. Even if you do find the fabled "good girl" or if one of the short-term minded girls falls for you, you will be conditioned to be skeptical and doubtful of their long-term relationship capacity because of your experiences with the other girls, thus erasing any of the sense of security that you initially sought.

Also, in the end it seemed that the "want me more than I want them" thing was actually more important than sleeping with the girls. So when I found out that the girls I was sleeping with wanted me in a relationship capacity less than the admittedly close-to-zero amount I wanted them, it was really demoralizing, as I'd inevitably end up with this weird shitty feeling of being "just another guy" a girl slept with and it did not feel good at all. Then I realized that my behaviors probably also led girls to feel hurt in this way, and the whole exercise between the genders is kind of futile overall and people are hurting each other over something as trivial as ego and a misguided search for security.

Now I just kind of maintain the self-improvements from before, as they've added great value to my life, but I don't actively seek out dating, going to clubs, etc. I figure that if something pointing to a relationship comes about organically I will definitely be fully open to it, but it is not as much of a priority at the moment.

these are good points. i will say that people who tend to mention on the internet their lack of success with women are basically starting at zero so bombarding them with this stuff merely shifts the "overton window" (this is an imperfect analogy) to the right so they start getting some improvement. their cumulative 'score' is just so far in the weeds they need all the points they can get. there is no room for nuance when you're in the hole.

more well adjusted/successful men are "deficient" (this term is used loosely) in fewer of these categories and may not need to change much from baseline, or at all. the zero dudes need to level up basically everything in order to even have a snowball's chance in hell. i.e. a tall jacked rich dude can get away with being an emotionally needy text-happy dork sometimes. it might even be endearing in a "i can fix him" kind of way.

the most important thing is for guys who WANT to improve (not everyone really gives a shit, which is fine) the most important thing to understand is that you CAN improve, and society's bullshit platitudes, dismissals of concern, and implications creepiness of wanting to improve are just that - bullshit, deeply dishonest, deceitful, and fucking cruel.

to make matters worse there are all sorts of con artists who prey on younger guys so hearing this kind of stuff from a non-sales-oriented pov on a place like HN is important.

You sound a little nuts but I appreciate the candor! One thing you are completely missing here (and to be fair, may not be for you) is the actual benefits of a relationship - as opposed to quantifying the ego-boost of a hookup or whatever.

Like, I enjoyed my slutty single says but I LOVE father's day with my two kids and wife even more :) I don't measure the "value add" that my wife brought me in units of her desire for me or something weird like that - I look at the life I am enjoying and could not have without her.

As I said this may not be for you but a mention of this was completely absent altogether and that was odd for me.

Yea, I guess I forgot to also mention that what I "actually actually" wanted was that sense of security, and I was looking in the wrong place for it. Though once that sense of security is there, it's possible to engage in and enjoy relationships in a "normal" way, rather than from the point of view of "gaining points" to try and acquire that sense of security.

The whole episode opened my eyes that I was not only doing this "points counting" in a dating context, but also in a friendship context, e.g. trying to find friends who reach out to me more than I reach out to them (in pursuit of a similar type of security), rather than just relaxing and enjoying the friendships in a natural way. I'd say things are much better now.

Thanks for sharing your experience.

I am now in a similar situation you were before: I've never had a relationship, the last phone number of a girl I got was 2 years ago and it was a coworker, etc.

The original article suggests to learn how other people have already gotten the thing you want. So can you share the plan you followed that made you start attracting girls? Or can you share some resources you used to achieve that goal?

there's tons of stuff on the internet for this now. keep these two things in mind:

1. is what you've been doing for years, working? then don't keep doing it.

2. has asking advice from women, ever worked?

3. imagine you have always been poor, how do you think your social circle would react if you tried to get rich? if you actually achieve it?

think deeply about these things with an open mind.

talking about the fact that you can actually learn to be good with women is highly offensive to a huge portion of the population because you are turning that something that should be 'natural' into something that can be quantified and that deeply upsets some people. they really can't handle it mentally.

Extremely uncomfortable and true, like swallowing the red pill.

Have you found a way of finding similarly minded people in life?

As a woman, men who are focused on stuff like this (beyond basic physical and financial health) scare and repel me.

9. never tell women you are working on this stuff actively.

"just so you know, i'm working on not being a needy dork that texts you 24/7. i hope to be more attractive to you by working on my ability to make decisions for myself without being devastated when someone tells me their opinion of me. do you like me more now? how about now? how about now?"

No, trying to better yourself is fine.

Following that advice isn't bettering yourself, you're essentially just doing the human version of SEO.

You aren't becoming a better or kinder or more interesting person, nor are you working on your ability to make real human connections with others.

And a lot of you will say, so what? If it gets me a girlfriend, what does it matter?

These are the dudes who get dumped or divorced and never see it coming, because they never bothered to learn how to relate to people.

> These are the dudes who get dumped or divorced and never see it coming

no, i do believe you have it exactly backwards.

you're also just making up straw man arguments like "can't connect with people". i didn't even mention that, or hobbies, or charity, or anything. pure fiction in your mind.

you see a post about 'self improvement' and your mind just fills in the blanks with your own assumptions. you probably didn't actually read half the post.

Oh, I read it. I'm commenting on what you chose to emphasize and what you left out, because that speaks volumes about what you value.

Almost all of the advice was around superficial, self-centered things.

All of it was about you getting something you want, and none of it was about being a net positive in someone else's life.

It comes off as cold and selfish.

the people who need this kind of advice are pushovers and constantly give of themselves to others, only to be taken advantage of. they're Nice Guys. as in they're too nice. maybe it's because they expect reciprocation, maybe because all they have to offer is niceness. maybe they're just naive.

who do you think needs advice to be more ASSERTIVE? people who are already assholes? think about what you're saying for like 2 fucking seconds.

these points are the areas they _ARE DEFICIENT IN_. again, straw man, poor reading comprehension with a lack of context to who the intended audience is meant to be, and mental fictions.

telling a mentally broken or underdeveloped Nice Guy that they need to be more selfless is a crock of shit, it's dishonest, and it's cruel. please be more aware of reality.

fwiw the comment has a lot of upvotes.

If you want to do them, fine. But they're not going to make you successful at relationships, because everything about them has to do with you.

And what would you rather they do? Just "be themselves"? That advice is one of the primary root causes of the incel epidemic.

The problem is y'all keep trying to run last century's playbook.

Relationships are no longer transactional. The age of the breadwinner and provider are over. Women are no longer forced to stay home while you toil in the mines or whatever. You're optional.

Because you're optional, you need to be more desirable than no relationship and frankly, a lot of you aren't.

> Relationships are no longer transactional

LOL. buddy. i've got some news for you.

the fact that you can't actually point to a single thing i said (not something you just made up out of thin air) and claim it is actually WRONG, means you're just angry at my opinion.

See, this is what I mean. You have an extremely cynical, corrosive view of relationships, and it leads you to post things like this and assume other people are angry, too.

Relationships aren't something you acquire, they're something you build. You need to be a net asset to your partner, and just bringing home money doesn't count.

> Relationships are no longer transactional

why would that be?

"everything in the world is about sex, except sex, which is about power"

Because it's not true?

why was it true and no longer is?