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Re:What went on inside the Wuhan lab weeks before Covid erupted by anthonypasq on Monday June 12, 2023 @09:55AM (#36293475)
Oppositions to lockdowns were never about whether they would reduce deaths or not in the short term. Anyone with a brain could understand that if people weren't in a position to breath on each other, the virus wouldnt spread as quickly.

Oppositions to lockdowns were always about tradeoffs and whether they were worth it. Its just such a boring critique.

My main question still remains, what would your plan have been if we still didnt have a vaccine? From my perspective lockdown supporters got completely bailed out by one of the greatest medical/scientific achievements in human history (developing and deploying an extremely effective vaccine within 1 year).

The only thing lockdowns do is push cases into the future.

Re:What went on inside the Wuhan lab weeks before Covid erupted by boston_clone on Monday June 12, 2023 @10:40AM (#36294313)
> Oppositions to lockdowns were always about tradeoffs and whether they were worth it. Its just such a boring critique.

Fully agreed; saving lives / community responsibility is the noble choice.

Work on a vaccine began almost immediately, no? I trusted that shifting the focused lens of US policy toward medical research would produce some incredible results, especially with the diversified private sector pharmaceutical behemoths battling it out, so to speak.

Re:What went on inside the Wuhan lab weeks before Covid erupted by anthonypasq on Monday June 12, 2023 @12:22PM (#36296072)
yes "started." there was literally no guarantee we would even have a vaccine at all. There was absolutely no historical precedent for development and deployment of a vaccine with a year of virus discovery. it was incredible achievement and government official literally bet the entire world economy on it for some reason i still cant understand.
Re:What went on inside the Wuhan lab weeks before Covid erupted by thedrbrian on Tuesday June 13, 2023 @09:04AM (#36309682)
give how many people seem to catch covid after having the vaccine, was it worth it?
Re:What went on inside the Wuhan lab weeks before Covid erupted by boston_clone on Tuesday June 13, 2023 @12:24PM (#36312581)
Considering the risk of dying was unequivocally reduced, this is an obvious “yes”.
Re:What went on inside the Wuhan lab weeks before Covid erupted by Mechanical9 on Monday June 12, 2023 @10:12AM (#36293732)
Pushing cases into the future was always the stated goal of lockdowns. That was what "flatten the curve" meant. The idea was to accept some temporary consequences in order to prevent deaths until vaccines could be made.

I also don't think it was any stroke of luck that resulted in vaccines being made quickly. Our scientific establishments correctly devoted their resources to developing vaccines. A lot of us were closely following their development and knew that they were just around the corner. Even without advancements in MRNA technology, other types of vaccines were being made that could prevent the majority of deaths.

Re:What went on inside the Wuhan lab weeks before Covid erupted by anthonypasq on Monday June 12, 2023 @12:20PM (#36296025)
When "flatten the curve" came out as a slogan they told us 2 weeks. Absolutely no one in public health believed that would be true. It doesnt make sense on any level whatsoever. i mean it just beggars belief that they told the public that with a straight face. the only person i recall in early days of 2020 saying this was going to be many months if not years was Mike Osterholm which i respect for not gaslighting the public.

heres an article in the NYT about managing vaccine expectations.

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/04/30/opinion/coron...

also you argument falls apart when lockdowns (restrictions, npis, whatever you want to call them) continued way beyond vaccine rollout. I was first in line to get vaccinated and im very glad i did, because they promised us that would be a return to normal, but it wasnt for at least a year afterwards and i still havent been given an explanation why.

Re:What went on inside the Wuhan lab weeks before Covid erupted by boston_clone on Monday June 12, 2023 @01:10PM (#36297054)
About a year after vaccines became available, only 60% or so of folks had received two doses [0]. Public messaging from the initial administration is an obvious contributor to the remaining 40%.

County / MSA hospital capacities, percent available ICU beds, ventilator use, admission increase rates, deaths, and various other stats were factored into restrictive policy decisions. However, this varies city by city and state by state (I suppose as an effect of federalism).

0. https://usafacts.org/visualizations/covid-vaccine-tracker-st...

Re:What went on inside the Wuhan lab weeks before Covid erupted by anthonypasq on Tuesday June 13, 2023 @09:58AM (#36310319)
im sorry, but people who chose not to get vaccinated knew what they were doing and governments and public health officials holding everyone else hostage cause some people wanted to engage in risky behavior is not justifiable under any ethical framework i can think of.
Re:What went on inside the Wuhan lab weeks before Covid erupted by boston_clone on Tuesday June 13, 2023 @12:23PM (#36312553)
im sorry, but people who chose to speed knew what they were doing and governments and public safety officials holding everyone else to a speed limit cause some people wanted to engage is risky behavior is not justifiable under any ethical framework i can think of.

…maybe think harder, then?

Re:What went on inside the Wuhan lab weeks before Covid erupted by anthonypasq on Wednesday June 14, 2023 @10:54AM (#36326933)
no because this is a terrible analogy. Speeding endangers others who have not consented to that danger, not getting vaccinated has absolutely no societal risk in this particular scenario with covid.

If I could make my car crash proof (me getting vaccinated in this analogy), i would have no issues with people wanting to drive as fast as they like (they already do it anyway).

Re:What went on inside the Wuhan lab weeks before Covid erupted by boston_clone on Wednesday June 14, 2023 @02:10PM (#36330042)
it’s only a bad analogy if you have a poor understanding of things.

https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMc2106757

Re:What went on inside the Wuhan lab weeks before Covid erupted by anthonypasq on Wednesday June 14, 2023 @06:22PM (#36333603)
that was published in 2021 about data from march 2020 to nov 2020, its completely irrelevant. I mean can you at least try?

also, even if vaccines did stop transmission your argument still doesnt make sense. I can protect myself by being vaccinated. I dont give a shit if the person next to me is unvaccinated, im already protected myself. If you decide not to, you are consenting to increased risk.

Re:What went on inside the Wuhan lab weeks before Covid erupted by boston_clone on Thursday June 15, 2023 @08:36AM (#36339585)
Who would win - a peer reviewed article with published methodologies and citations? Or some internet rando with no medical background simply saying “that’s irrelevant”?

Enjoy dying on this hill, Anthony.

Re:What went on inside the Wuhan lab weeks before Covid erupted by anthonypasq on Thursday June 15, 2023 @01:38PM (#36344000)
what hill am i dying on? that vaccines work, just differently than you want to admit?
Re:What went on inside the Wuhan lab weeks before Covid erupted by cygx on Monday June 12, 2023 @01:22PM (#36297270)
and i still havent been given an explanation why

I'm just guessing, but an obvious reason would be because the vaccines were not as effective against the new variants? As in, while the vaccines still protected the vaccinated person, they did not effectively prevent spread of the disease, so other ways to do so remained relevant...

Re:What went on inside the Wuhan lab weeks before Covid erupted by anthonypasq on Tuesday June 13, 2023 @09:57AM (#36310296)
who cares if the disease is spreading if your arent gonna die from it?
Re:What went on inside the Wuhan lab weeks before Covid erupted by cygx on Tuesday June 13, 2023 @11:18AM (#36311513)
Not every one chose to get vaccinated.
Re:What went on inside the Wuhan lab weeks before Covid erupted by spookthesunset on Monday June 12, 2023 @01:31PM (#36297494)
> Pushing cases into the future was always the stated goal of lockdowns. That was what "flatten the curve" meant. The idea was to accept some temporary consequences in order to prevent deaths until vaccines could be made.

The idea we needed to "flatten the curve until a vaccine" was obsolete the day many states closed their completely unused field hospitals. That should have been the indicator that covid wasn't nearly as bad as predicted. That was the day everything should have gone back to complete normal.

These lockdown "experts" never had an end game. They kept pushing the goal posts further and further until they completely lost the plot. That was one of my first objections to such mitigations. There was zero success criteria. Fuckers were just winging it. Which might be okay for some minimally invasive crap like enhanced handwashing protocols but it is absolutely bat-shit insane for something as impacting as lockdowns.

What we did was insane. I still have no idea how people look back, given all the data, and say "yup, what we did made sense". None of it make a single ounce of sense at all...

Re:What went on inside the Wuhan lab weeks before Covid erupted by whimsicalism on Monday June 12, 2023 @10:05AM (#36293615)
> The only thing lockdowns do is push cases into the future.

Even without vaccination, mortality from covid is significantly lower than it was early in the pandemic.

Re:What went on inside the Wuhan lab weeks before Covid erupted by revelio on Tuesday June 13, 2023 @03:44AM (#36306923)
> Anyone with a brain could understand that if people weren't in a position to breath on each other, the virus wouldnt spread as quickly.

This can be rephrased as "it's just obvious/common sense that lockdowns work" and it's a really common argument, but wrong.

Unfortunately there's nothing really obvious or intuitive about viruses. The Diamond Princess cruise ship showed right at the start that lockdowns would be ineffective. They locked down everyone on the cruise ship the moment the first outbreaks were confirmed, confining them to cabins. In the transmission model that lockdowns rely on that would have ended the outbreak immediately. But it didn't, instead people kept coming down with COVID completely at random, scattered all over the ship. From this two things could be concluded:

1. SARS-CoV-2 is airborne, that is, it can move long distances in gaseous clouds, i.e. through air ducts, by hanging in the air for long periods and other ways that lockdowns can't affect.

2. The clouds must have circulated through the ship, yet not everyone was susceptible.

This wasn't a terribly surprising result because investigators had concluded the same things about SARS-1 back in the day. SARS-1 clouds were able to move within apartment buildings even when everyone was locked down in their apartments, apparently via air ducts.

https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa032867

Some people pointed out at the time that this would render lockdowns irrelevant right back in March 2020, and were ignored, but time has proven them right. There's no correlation between lockdown severity and results.