News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:OpenMW: Open-source TES3: Morrowind reimplementation by bamfly on Friday June 09, 2023 @11:18AM (#36259124)
I played the main quest, a high fraction of the sidequests & major faction quest trees, one of the expansions, and most of the other one, in OpenMW something like 18-24 months ago. With a few mods, and draw distance cranked up fairly high, and at 4K resolution.

Worked perfectly. Zero glitches the whole time, and the official engine would have crashed at least a dozen times in such a playthrough, while this one didn't even crash once.

[EDIT] I mean, zero unexpected glitches. Obviously the entire game is made of glitches.

Re:OpenMW: Open-source TES3: Morrowind reimplementation by hombre_fatal on Friday June 09, 2023 @11:38AM (#36259448)
I noticed that view distance can also remove some of the mystique from a game.

When it's cranked too high, the world feels much smaller even though it takes just as long to walk anywhere. Probably because my mental understanding of the world is so fuzzy that it allows my brain to overestimate how far apart the more concrete nodes are like cities. Walking the path from Balmora to some quest location and being distracted half the time with cliff racers and dungeons doesn't really establish how far I walked in my head. It could have been kilometers.

But looking at the whole 3D model of the world removes all of that fuzzy uncertainty that made the world feel big. The best example of this is looking at all of Vivec in your viewport. Without the fog and short view distance, Vivec looks so small despite the amount of times I got lost in it as a kid.

There seems to be a healthy balance of fog + view distance.

Re:OpenMW: Open-source TES3: Morrowind reimplementation by huevosabio on Friday June 09, 2023 @11:49AM (#36259660)
I agree. Also, I really liked the hazy vibe that Morrowind has from an immersion point of view. It's a volcanic island, it makes sense for there to be tons of smoke that clouds your view! It really goes well with the bizarre out-worldly vegetation and fauna.

When I played Oblivion and Skyrim, both great games, I felt I was back in a medieval setting rather than some fantasy land. (Skyrim is a bit better, Oblivion's look and feel is too Europe in the Middle Ages).

Re:OpenMW: Open-source TES3: Morrowind reimplementation by hombre_fatal on Friday June 09, 2023 @12:01PM (#36259870)
Yeah, that's why I could never get into Skyrim even when playing it after I beat Morrowind a few years ago on OpenMW. It's cliche criticism, but it felt like a generic medieval setting. The generic dragon opener of an otherwise interesting hook also crystalizes the feeling.

It just can't compete with Morrowind's giant mushrooms and random people calling me a filthy N'wah.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=utG17UeUv00 (19 seconds)

Re:OpenMW: Open-source TES3: Morrowind reimplementation by bamfly on Friday June 09, 2023 @02:52PM (#36262333)
I remember reading somewhere that there was a single writer behind most of the distinctive, weird setting of Morrowind (and I think the first two Elder Scrolls, too?) and he didn't work on IV and V. The person or people who replaced him didn't have that kind of creativity, or weren't allowed to express it, so we got Generic Fantasy instead of all the delightful weirdness we should have (some of the early lore about other parts of Tamriel is nuts, I wish we'd gotten to see more of it).
Re:OpenMW: Open-source TES3: Morrowind reimplementation by ovao on Friday June 09, 2023 @03:50PM (#36263224)
You may be thinking of Douglas Goodall, who designed and wrote the majority of Morrowind’s questlines. He left Bethesda shortly after Morrowind’s release.

I don’t know if the general strangeness of Vvardenfell could necessarily be attributed to Goodall, but various central themes and dialog certainly could be.

Re:OpenMW: Open-source TES3: Morrowind reimplementation by kqr on Friday June 09, 2023 @04:28PM (#36263727)
You have probably received the response you were looking for, but Kirkbride is another of those contributors to Morrowind lore that helped make it special. Sermons of Vivec, Dragon break, etc.
Re:OpenMW: Open-source TES3: Morrowind reimplementation by JPws_Prntr_Fngr on Friday June 09, 2023 @04:52PM (#36264016)
Michael Kirkbride is mostly responsible for Morrowind's unique flavor: https://www.polygon.com/2019/3/27/18281082/elder-scrolls-mor...

I read somewhere that he would come up with his weirdest lore during all-nighters, delirious from sleep deprivation & some kind of intoxicant which I forget.

Re:OpenMW: Open-source TES3: Morrowind reimplementation by starkparker on Friday June 09, 2023 @09:12PM (#36266545)
This reminded me of something the Unofficial Elder Scrolls Pages wrote on the "intoxicant" part: https://uesp.tumblr.com/post/179903892360/is-it-true-that-mi...

> All of these rumors are false. The truth is that people on the Internet saw someone adding writing beyond a grade school level to a video game, and decided that to produce such a thing required you to be on drugs. Ignoring the dangerous message to budding creative types who may see the message that to be creative you have to be on drugs, it’s also extremely unfair to Michael Kirkbride himself. He’s a real person, with a real career. It’s not the best thing in the world to be a noted professional, and whenever someone googles your name, one of the top results relates to a fictional history with substance abuse.

Kirkbride's description tones it down to just some coffee and bourbon: https://www.imperial-library.info/content/thirty-six-lessons...

> "It was one dev, naked in a room with a carton of cigarettes, a thermos full of coffee and bourbon, and all his summoned angels."

And: https://www.reddit.com/r/teslore/comments/hrmdzk/comment/fyd...

> You know that comes from a Photoshopped image, right? Come on now.

> Anyway, that’s all a lie. I’ve already given an account of how the 36 were written: a week of bourbon, smokes, and solitude. I’ve never dropped acid in my life.

Re:OpenMW: Open-source TES3: Morrowind reimplementation by beiller on Saturday June 10, 2023 @01:42PM (#36272752)
Gettin high on skooma no doubt
Re:OpenMW: Open-source TES3: Morrowind reimplementation by Aeolun on Friday June 09, 2023 @08:27PM (#36266230)
There’s plenty of weird environments in Skyrim too. Even if you do not necessarily see them during the main quest.
Re:OpenMW: Open-source TES3: Morrowind reimplementation by hombre_fatal on Friday June 09, 2023 @10:08PM (#36266843)
That's good to hear. I sheepishly never made it more than a day into Skyrim but I owe it a fair shot.
Re:OpenMW: Open-source TES3: Morrowind reimplementation by bamfly on Friday June 09, 2023 @11:53AM (#36259713)
Yeah, high enough to see most of Fort Ebon from Vivec and vice-versa is roughly the sweet spot, IMO.

(Or is it Ebonheart? That sounds right.)

Re:OpenMW: Open-source TES3: Morrowind reimplementation by kqr on Friday June 09, 2023 @01:06PM (#36260807)
This is definitely true. A good compromise I've found is the mod that adds volumetric fog to OpenMW. Looks absolutely stunning and retains the mystique of distance in a more immersive way.
Re:OpenMW: Open-source TES3: Morrowind reimplementation by bamfly on Friday June 09, 2023 @02:43PM (#36262231)
Oh man, does it have a way to set the fog to different density in different areas? Vanilla's max draw distance seems way too low in the relatively-nice parts of the island, especially the South, West, and coastal East, but if you set OpenMW's draw high enough to feel right in those areas, it's way too high in the ashlands and around the volcano and all that.
Re:OpenMW: Open-source TES3: Morrowind reimplementation by kqr on Friday June 09, 2023 @04:32PM (#36263773)
Not directly, but it is dynamic based on weather and atmosphere in each region.
Re:OpenMW: Open-source TES3: Morrowind reimplementation by JamesLeonis on Friday June 09, 2023 @01:43PM (#36261293)
> But looking at the whole 3D model of the world removes all of that fuzzy uncertainty that made the world feel big.

The map also plays a trick on you. Many of the paths are deliberately winding through valleys and such to make the travel seem longer. Personally I felt this the most in the northern Ashlands. Combined with the Fog, limited Fast Travel, and a bunch of distracting Dwemer ruins the whole island felt huge.

...I might have to reinstall

Re:OpenMW: Open-source TES3: Morrowind reimplementation by bamfly on Friday June 09, 2023 @05:37PM (#36264485)
The fast travel's not actually that limited, you just have to work for some of it. Like if you don't learn the mark, recall, and the two intervention spells pretty early on, yeah, it's painful. Otherwise, it's barely less fast-travelly than the next two entries in the series. The game provides the tools to solve the problem, it just doesn't give them to you for free, and it doesn't push them at you with flashing lights around them like "DEFINITELY GET THESE ASAP".

... which means that younger-me totally did two entire playthroughs without ever learning any of those spells, of course. Ouch.

Re:OpenMW: Open-source TES3: Morrowind reimplementation by sneed_chucker on Friday June 09, 2023 @02:03PM (#36261594)
I think everyone's first playthrough should be the vanilla game if possible.
Re:OpenMW: Open-source TES3: Morrowind reimplementation by bamfly on Friday June 09, 2023 @05:43PM (#36264557)
There are hi-res texture packs & mesh improvements that are pure wins, even for a first time player, IMO. They don't change the art much, they just make it look way better on a modern screen. And I'd recommend a mod to make plant harvesting more like the later games (there are a few, I think the one I usually use is Herbalism—the vanilla behavior of treating them like containers and not marking which have been harvested simply sucks). Plus the usual unnofficial-patch mod that's basically required for any Bethesda game.

That'd be the extent of the mods I'd recommend to a first timer.

Re:OpenMW: Open-source TES3: Morrowind reimplementation by fho on Friday June 09, 2023 @02:32PM (#36262074)
I guess the next generation of open world games will have a much larger scale ... you will be able to stand on a hill and watch miles of procedurally generated landscape populated by ChatGPT powered farmers and bandits.

While that sounds great ... I bet AAA titles will find ways to make that repetitive as hell in the name of providing predictable fun.

Re:OpenMW: Open-source TES3: Morrowind reimplementation by Timon3 on Saturday June 10, 2023 @08:31AM (#36269925)
It's definitely an important factor! Open world games are at their best when the player navigates the space naturally - without quest markers and the like, but with "oh, that thing on the horizon looks cool, I'll go there!". FNV is amazing at this. The Morrowind devs definitely considered this, but they were of course limited by the hardware of their time. So the game is made to evoke this feeling even at small render distances.

But if you then crank them up, you won't have one or two cool landmarks to see, but way too many! You can see this done well in Elden Ring - you can see very far, and the map is big enough to still space out points of interest.

The only way to "fix" this for higher render distances is to rebuild the world with those in mind.

Re:OpenMW: Open-source TES3: Morrowind reimplementation by bjablonski on Friday June 09, 2023 @11:34AM (#36259383)
Would you care to share mods that worked as expected with OpenMW? I've just started my journey today, so any input will be appriecieted.
Re:OpenMW: Open-source TES3: Morrowind reimplementation by Acrobatic_Road on Friday June 09, 2023 @11:35AM (#36259415)
Unless it says "MWSE" it should work with OpenMW. 99.9% guaranteed.
Re:OpenMW: Open-source TES3: Morrowind reimplementation by bamfly on Friday June 09, 2023 @11:48AM (#36259633)
I can't remember which ones I used. Texture mods IIRC worked fine, pretty sure I had hi-res replacement mods for most of the textures in the game. I did some loading art replacer thing so they'd be widescreen and hi-res, but that wasn't so much a mod as replacing some images. I think I may have used some of the "Comes Alive" stuff—I know I used to "back in the day", so I assume I did this time, and I'd probably remember if it hadn't worked. One obscure library mod that I like, that adds an empty library just outside Vivec that you can fill by giving them books to copy, that worked fine. Twin Lamps, fairly certain I used that one.

As I recall, the main things that don't work are graphics overhauls that require patching or wrapping the original executable in some fashion. Usually these do some kind of shader magic to e.g. make the water look nicer.

[EDIT] Oh, and I think I had Herbalism installed. If not that, something similar. A mod that turns plants from containers into pick-ups is one of those don't-play-without-it things, for me.

Re:OpenMW: Open-source TES3: Morrowind reimplementation by polytely on Friday June 09, 2023 @11:59AM (#36259843)
There is a cool site with mod lists that are confirmed to be compatible with OpenMW. I'm currently running 'I heart vanilla' which is basically the vanilla game with extra content and some balance and bug fixes. Highly recommend checking it out.

https://modding-openmw.com/

Re:OpenMW: Open-source TES3: Morrowind reimplementation by dfu on Friday June 09, 2023 @03:03PM (#36262493)
As polytely said, https://modding-openmw.com/ is a great resource for openmw mod lists.

Also, for certain mods, you do need at least OpenMW 0.48 release candidate [1], a development build [2] (it's below Release Versions), or just build from source. I'm pretty sure it was after 0.47 when they added the ability to add shaders, and configure them using the F2 menu. The modding-openmw site will tell you if you actually need a 0.48 build for a particular mod.

I usually use "I Heart Vanilla" [3] as a base and then pick extra mods from "Expanded Vanilla" [4], which includes the load order if you also want Tamriel Rebuilt [5] (which lets you explore the mainland). The Expansions Integrated, Tribunal Rebalance, Bloodmoon Rebalance, and Expansion Delay are all nice mods too. Makes the expansions really feel like they are part of the base game. When adding extra mods like that, I just use the load ordering they suggest.

One of my favorites (in "Expanded Vanilla") is called Natural Character Growth and Decay [6], so you don't have to worry about min-maxing the level mechanics. It has some options, and I turn off the decay bit for a more relaxing time. It allows you to just play the game as you want.

I love the addition of shaders, and use Zesterer's Volumetric Cloud & Mist Mod for OpenMW [7] as you can have the game keep some of that hazy feeling yet still have distant land and objects. I also use Bloom Linear shader [8]. If you want some other shaders, you can use OMWFX Shaders [9] and/or Zesterer's OpenMW Shader Pack [10]. I have used Zesterer's OpenMW Shader Pack, but you have to edit the config.glsl if you want to set it different from the vanilla preset. The game looks nice with just FXAA, clouds and mist, and linear bloom (very mild). The "Expanded Vanilla" guide under shaders gives a good preset, and then you can change them using the F2 menu in-game.

This all said, it's been awhile since I've properly played last. I take my old list and update it occasionally as mods change or new features are added to OpenMW, thinking I will play through it again one of these days.

[1] https://openmw.org/2022/openmw-0-48-0-is-now-in-rc-phase/

[2] https://openmw.org/downloads/

[3] https://modding-openmw.com/lists/i-heart-vanilla/

[4] https://modding-openmw.com/lists/expanded-vanilla/

[5] https://www.tamriel-rebuilt.org/

[6] https://modding-openmw.com/mods/ncgdmw-lua-edition/

[7] https://github.com/zesterer/openmw-volumetric-clouds

[8] https://modding-openmw.com/mods/bloom-linear/

[9] https://modding-openmw.com/mods/omwfx-shaders/

[10] https://github.com/zesterer/openmw-shaders

Re:OpenMW: Open-source TES3: Morrowind reimplementation by sbierwagen on Friday June 09, 2023 @04:51PM (#36264011)
>https://modding-openmw.com/lists/expanded-vanilla/

If I'm reading this correctly, this is a list of 268 mods, each of which must be downloaded and installed separately. Is that right?

Re:OpenMW: Open-source TES3: Morrowind reimplementation by dfu on Saturday June 10, 2023 @12:44AM (#36267666)
As far as I know, downloading and installing each mod is the main method for the modding-openmw lists.

There is a tool to try to automate game modlist installs called Wabbajack [1]. It was briefly discussed on the openmw forums [2]. I'm not sure if anyone has tried further to get the modding-openmw lists working with it. I have never used Wabbajack, so I don't know too much other than it exists. It still seems to have extra requirements according to the post, including a premium NexusMods account if you don't want to manually download everything.

Just as I typed all the above I saw a mention of portmod [3] in the modding-openmw guide about mod managers. Seems it's like Gentoo's portage, but for game mods. I see it has some meta packages for modding-openmw in their ebuild-like repository [4], but I don't think any of the big lists have been updated in awhile. Also, there again seems to be issues with it auto downloading from NexusMods mentioned in the issue tracker. Nevertheless, it looks to be an interesting project.

[1] https://github.com/wabbajack-tools/wabbajack

[2] https://forum.openmw.org/viewtopic.php?t=7581

[3] https://gitlab.com/portmod/portmod

[4] https://portmod.gitlab.io/openmw-mods/meta-momw/

Re:OpenMW: Open-source TES3: Morrowind reimplementation by contrarian1234 on Saturday June 10, 2023 @07:23AM (#36269564)
I'd suggest taking a look at Morrowind Rebirth

All the alternatives seem to involved managing a plethora of mini-mods that hopefully work together.. it's really easy to install and it turns the game instantly from a drab/stale/dated look to something a lot busier and lively - at least at a surface level. Maybe it has some issues that I'm just not aware of - I never really got far in playing it

I'd be curious what other people thought of it. It seems to never be mentioned in lists and "hardcore" players seem to not like it for some reason

Re:OpenMW: Open-source TES3: Morrowind reimplementation by mawadev on Friday June 09, 2023 @11:33AM (#36259372)
"All of this just works" - Todd Howard