This type of deviant behavior came to a screeching halt when Crest released their breath-activated toothbrush defense system (BATDS) in 2028. BATDS enabled devices deliver a non-lethal shock to the perpetrator, rendering them unconscious. While BATDS was immediately deemed illegal in most countries due to disputed claims that it caused significant brain damage throughout a large control group, it remains popular in single family households in the US.
(I'm just kidding. I hope...)
https://www.reddit.com/r/4chan/comments/1ggg4u/please_drink_...
It gave as an example clothes dryers. The way most home clothes dryers working back then was you put the clothes in, you turn a dial on a timer to the number of minutes you want the dryer to run, and you press start.
The mechanical timers were very reliable. There hadn't been any substantial improvement in their design in decades because there really wasn't anything to improve. There had been improvement in the materials used, and in the cost, but fundamentally mechanical timers was a solved problem.
If the mechanical timer ever broke the repairperson would have replacements in their van. Even if they didn't have the specific one for your dryer it didn't matter because they all worked pretty much the same. They could just put in another one. Maybe the mounting holes wouldn't be in the right place, but they could easily improvise some way to mount it in your dryer.
The book went on to say that somewhere there is an engineer designing a new clothes dryer, and instead of a mechanical timer that engineer is putting in a digital timer. It has a microprocessor, 7 segment LED digit displays for the time, some buttons for interacting with it (such as setting the time and correcting mistakes), and a power supply. And let's not forget that it has software.
That digital timer has no advantage to the user over a mechanical timer. But it has disadvantages. The interface will be worse. It will cost more. It won't be more reliable and possibly will be less reliable, and if it does need repair the repairperson probable won't have the parts. If they have another brand's digital timer on hand they probably won't be able to adapt it to your dryer.
So why is that engineer designing the new dryer with a digital timer?
Because mechanical timers are boring. Digital electronics was at the cutting edge of consumer engineering then, and so by using a digital timer the engineer got to play with exciting new technology.
But also, some slop in the timing accuracy is just fine. The user doesn't really know how long precisely the drier needs to run to dry their clothes. They just know that if they set this timer to 45 then the clothes come out dry.
The only things that broke are plastic door hinges.
> That digital timer has no advantage to the user over a mechanical timer. But it has disadvantages.
The mechanical timer is known to degrade over time, which is why the repair person has spares in their van. Does the digital timer really have no advantages? Will it ever fail and need to be replaced? How much more does it cost?
Yes, engineers are tempted to use shiny tools all of the time. Evaluating whether or not the tool is right for the job is _hard_. But it feels wrong to say that novelty is the only motivation behind upgrading tools?
The digital timer was made by an engineer, too, who designed it to be a more reliable replacement for faulty mechanical timers. It has both advantages and disadvantages compared to mechanical timers, which is why the engineer made it in the first place?
Surely the expected lifetime of a digital timer is shorter than that of a mechanical timer.
In practice, cost engineering is going to mean neither is completely reliable, but it should be cheaper to make an electronic timer reliable enough. Especially today, where the cost of a functioning mechanical timer is probably an order of magnitude more than an equivalent electronic timer.
There are so many different mechanical things that can break, jam, get gummed up...
Going into the realm of unlikely scenarios, electronics are more susceptible to EMPs.
Additionally, I would be very surprised if the digital solution is not cheaper to make. Maybe not when first originally introduced, but nowadays it very likely is.
You're right that repair-ability is hurt in some ways... but the industry has moved to compensate. You can buy boards and replace them. They aren't inherently hard to service, because the form factor doesn't really have limitations.
As a homeowner, I wish someone (anyone!) still sold reliable analog appliances that just did their job simply and made repair parts and schematics reasonably available.
Granted, none of my large appliances are younger than 10 years, but I think I could build new ones (expensively) for the all the parts and schematics available, even wiring diagrams.
In comparison, the mechanical timer is physically moving. A clockspring, or some sort of mechanism that physically sets the time remaining. Depending on how it's built, vibrations are a harder problem to solve. Not impossible, obviously, but it certainly adds cost.
Also, for most appliances we deal with today... they usually ARE simple to work on. Simple switches and mechanical contrivances. Parts are typically readily available... even PCBs, although possibly not at great pricing. There's certain appliances where you are basically screwed (fridges come to mind...), but that is mainly in my view because the typical failing part is the compressor. Nobody is rebuilding a compressor themselves.
Source: The episode of 'The Secret Life of Machines' on fridges. Search it on YouTube.
On the compressors, there was a vast swath of Samsung and LG fridges that had known defects on compressors causing them to fail. Right now, the ice machines are probably most problematic. If you own a Samsung fridge with an ice maker you know what I mean.
A few years ago I was renting a house that came with a Samsung fridge that provided chilled water / ice. My kids loved the chilled water.
However, our usage of it caused the paint to start bubbling below the dispenser, and the owners of the rental wanted me to replace the door at a cost of ~$800 USD(!).
I argued that we were using the fridge as designed, so we weren't liable, instead they should discuss what looked to me like an obvious design flaw with Samsung.
They disagreed, so we ended up in court. My defence was about 12 pages printed from an appliance review site of people specifically complaining about this paint bubbling.
Easiest win ever, but seriously, how do you put a device that works with water into a fridge and fail to ensure it can't leak under the paintwork?
The supply chain issues are hurting the servicing part, repair feasibility, and manufacturing part.
People make similar claims about cars, but old cars broke down all the time and new ones are basically appliances that “just work” without the driver needing to know anything. Similar for computers to smart phones (though obviously both digital in that transition)
Eventually digital became cheap, and enabled new features like dryers that had various sensors that could be used to optimize drying, but that was several years down the road.
"Repairability" is becoming slightly nonsense because even as someone who is a programmer, who has done electronics at a hobbyist level myself, I'm not going to be able to fix a lot of stuff purely because you have to become an expert on it, the time investment is too high. As systems get more complex (to the overall benefit of all of us) the value of repairing something yourself vs getting an expert to do it, changes.
I think right to repair is good though, but purely meaning that companies to not intentionally attempt to thwart the repair of their devices and that parts/manuals are available where needed. Even so, this doesn't mean that every phone repair place is going to debug some sub-circuit inside some small part of the newest iPhone - they'll just identify the overall broken module and replace the entire board/module.
The worst engineers I've worked with are ones who, in their first week, fall behind on their onboarding plan because the company's compiler needs a rewrite.
They probably knew it was dumb but implementing it was easier than getting around all the organizational permissions to make an exception.
The other day I was trying to buy a pair of bathroom scales and it took me far too long to find one that just, you know, weighed things without also demanding I connect it to the Wi-Fi and download a smartphone app. How is this an improvement?
First site I went to, first search term I tried.
Perhaps the commenter wasn't shopping online, took a while to find such a scale in the stores, and so wasn't lying.
Maybe if you go to an electronics retailer that also sells appliances like Best Buy, that's all you can find. But I live in a very techy area (San Francisco) and my local Target has plenty of non-connected digital scales for sale. For $10 more, you can get the connected version.
Now, saying that they're wrong is much more supportable and doesn't require you to engage in the tricky business of trying to read someone's mind.
What I believe is that we shouldn't be afraid of calling out people who casually spout easily disproven bullshit to make their argument. Saying you can only call out someone for being wrong doesn't go far enough. OP was arguing the position that there is too much connected tech, so much that in the future we may not even be able to buy a non-connected toothbrush in the future. I'm also IoT-skeptical, as many HNers are. It's a popular position that we don't want a world where IoT is mandatory. But as evidence, they gave an anecdote about shopping for a bathroom scale. I tried to be intellectually charitable to that position and assume good faith, but it didn't hold up without devolving into absurdity.
That's why I didn't say their anecdote was a lie. I can entertain the logical possibility that someone who sincerely does not want to buy a connected household appliance can go shopping for one and have difficulty finding one to buy. But it just doesn't play out, especially for someone who is on a specialist tech forum like HN and has clearly skeptical views on IoT. I said you have to work really hard to put yourself in a position where you can go shopping for such a scale, but face such difficulty that it took "far too long" to find one that is not "demanding I connect it to the Wi-Fi and download a smartphone app."
If you wanted to make a video of yourself not being able to buy a dumb scale, you could go to an tech-heavy electronics retailer that also sells appliances (like Best Buy, Microcenter) or a boutique high-tech gadgets store (like Sharper Image or Brookstone) and only find connected bathroom scales. I just checked what is in stock in a San Francisco Best Buy and the only scale is an IoT connected on. But that would be twisting the truth, because who in their right mind would check only Best Buy in order to buy a dumb scale. it takes a couple minutes on major retailers websites (Target, Walmart, Home Depot) to show that even if you limit to items in stock in tech-heavy places like San Francisco (if there is a place where retailers might assume their customers don't want dumb scales, it's SF), the first and usually cheapest options are dumb scales.
So let's Occam's Razor this. What is more likely? An IoT-skeptical HN poster actually went out to buy a non-connected bathroom scale and genuinely struggled to do so? Or an IoT-skeptical HN poster had to click or sort through a few different options and actually read product descriptions, then exaggerated this anecdote (or totally fabricated it) to advance their position?
But does that even matter? If they aren't a liar, then they are at best intellectually dishonest, and at worst intellectually incompetent. We don't have access to their mind and so can never know which of these three they are. No matter which of these three they are, any of them is a reason to invalidate their argument and call out their anecdote.
"Intellectually dishonest" is just a polite way to say "liar".
There's no need to go after someone personally when it's sufficient to simply point out that their statement was wrong. Why it was wrong isn't really important.
The other option is for me to assume that the guy is unintelligent and incapable - which do you think that they’d prefer to be characterised as?
A better explanation of your position (as I perceive it) might be: I think OP is lying for rhetorical points. The alternative explanations just seem too unlikely to me, and Occam's Razor screams a high likelihood of lying.
A couple of years ago I wanted to upgrade my bathroom scale to whatever the best one was and I found that there are no really good scales out there.
I have a "smart" scale from Polar that fortunately could be used as a regular dumb scale. I think Polar is really great in this regard. Their watches and other equipment can be used without syncing or connecting to their cloud, but the cloud does provide you extra value if you want to use it.
When making weight for a sport. Any more time than necessary spent dehydrating is energy and recovery you're not going to have for the event.
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B084SFRSBD/
It claims 0.1 lb accuracy, and seems pretty repeatable, but I haven't tested it for accuracy. These digital scales have multiple sensors (this one has 4), so it makes sense that individual sensors may give different readings as you shift your weight around - not sure if there's an exact science to combining the 4 readings into the single one that is displayed.
0.1kg is the weight of 100ml of water, which is about 3.3oz
... so yeah, we're doomed
I'm not sure you can even buy "just works" dumb mechanical scales any more.
You can, they're just more expensive (relatively speaking) because they cost more to make.
First, I've owned several wireless connected bathroom scales from high-end to low-end brands. All of them work out of the box without needing or demanding you connect it to Wi-Fi and download an app. Put in batteries, step on scale, and weight is displayed. If you want to use an app, that feature is available, but definitely not mandatory, and I've never seen the device prompt to install an app. One had a removable sticker that advertised the app with a QR download code.
Second, it took me less than 5 seconds to find a non-connected bathroom scale, if you care about that. Maybe I'll assume good faith here, you may be shopping at a super high-end retail shop, or an electronics store that also sells appliances, or an online megaretailer that knows you're into tech and is recommending you smart devices? But when I search for "bathroom scale" on amazon, target, walmart, or home depot, the first result is a basic digital scale that has no connected features.
Same when I look at what is in stock in stores where I live in San Francisco. If there is a place where retailers would think they only need to stock connected bathroom scales, that would be the place. Nope, plenty of non-connected scales that only need a single button CR battery.
I never claimed that it's impossible to buy a non-connected set of bathroom scales; all I said was that it took me "far too long" - by which I mean I wasted maybe five to ten minutes deciding which bathroom scales to buy because the first few ones I looked at turned out to be overengineered piles of Wifi/smartphone-ready bullshit that I didn't want. Looking on Amazon UK now, I see several "non-connected" scales in the search results, so I'm not sure why I found it so difficult last time, but my memories are what they are.
This is, of course, as trivial of a first-world problem as they possibly come, but it felt vaguely relevant to the current discussion, and it's part of a general trend in consumer electronics that I constantly see people on HN complaining about. Sorry you found it so offensive.
https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2020/01/unauthorized-bread-a-...
I think a better write up would have front loaded that aspect.
Even titling it "How I locked myself out of my smart brush" or similar. If he wanted to be creative it could have had a Film Noir start but even in a technical write up you should start with interesting aspects.
https://www.reddit.com/r/UnusualVideos/comments/13uv1ym/forr...
The absolute personification of Chaotic Neutral
Fear the Toothbrush Terrorist!
(just kidding)
EDIT: nope, not the default. From the data sheet, last sentence:
"To prevent brute-force attacks on the password, the maximum allowed number of negative password verification attempts can be set using AUTHLIM. This mechanism is disabled by setting AUTHLIM to a value of 000b, which is also the initial state of NTAG21x."
So Philips went out of their way to secure that toothbrush head. That's reassuring.