News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Don Knuth Plays with ChatGPT by gfodor on Saturday May 20, 2023 @11:31AM (#36012746)
I can't believe he spent his precious time on this and didn't instruct the grad student to pay $20 to use GPT-4. Sigh.
Re:Don Knuth Plays with ChatGPT by est31 on Saturday May 20, 2023 @11:36AM (#36012790)
The questions are still there, you can still send them to GPT-4 (unless they are now part of GPT-4's training set).
Re:Don Knuth Plays with ChatGPT by jonahx on Saturday May 20, 2023 @11:51AM (#36012932)
> and didn't instruct the grad student to pay $20 to use GPT-4

An inexcusable oversight... more so on the grad student than Knuth.

For example, Knuth's complaint about the question "What is an optimystic?":

> Answer #5 also pretty good. (Again it begins with "I'm sorry".) But it should have conjectured a mystic who is an optimist.

And here is GPT4's answer to the same question:

---

As of my knowledge cutoff in September 2021, "Optimystic" is not a recognized term in standard English. However, it could be a play on words combining "optimist" and "mystic."

...

So, hypothetically, an "optimystic" could refer to someone who combines these attributes - perhaps someone who is hopeful about the future and sees the world through a spiritual or metaphysical lens.

...

---

Similarly, on question #18, Knuth complains that GPT doesn't know the stock market is closed on Saturday, yet the GPT4 answer begins:

> As of my last training data in September 2021, and generally speaking, stock markets such as the NASDAQ are closed on weekends, including Saturday.

Those were just 2 I randomly checked.

Re:Don Knuth Plays with ChatGPT by Waterluvian on Saturday May 20, 2023 @12:48PM (#36013473)
Wow. Seriously? It can make an inference like that?

I wonder if “optimystic” shows up at all in the training data or if this was purely from some ability to detect those two source words.

Re:Don Knuth Plays with ChatGPT by lionkor on Saturday May 20, 2023 @12:58PM (#36013572)
Its the problem with fully proprietary AI like this: You cannot prove that this question and this answer wasnt in the training set, so you cannot argue for its ability to infer or reason.
Re:Don Knuth Plays with ChatGPT by 20after4 on Saturday May 20, 2023 @03:58PM (#36015037)
You can't prove that they aren't answering ChatGPT questions with real humans, either.
Re:Don Knuth Plays with ChatGPT by lionkor on Sunday May 21, 2023 @04:52AM (#36019064)
You're making my point for me. Exactly, a fully closed source language model cannot be evaluated because there is no way to know why it replies the way it does. My point exactly.
Re:Don Knuth Plays with ChatGPT by 20after4 on Tuesday May 23, 2023 @03:17AM (#36040989)
Yeah, I agree, and I didn't really mean for my reply to be a rebuttal to your point at all. :)
Re:Don Knuth Plays with ChatGPT by jonahx on Saturday May 20, 2023 @01:55PM (#36014053)
Short answer: for all practical purposes, yes, it can and it does.

For each specific example, there is no way to tell for sure (afaik) if the example was in the training set. But you can easily run some experiments yourself, inventing your own words which would not likely be in the training set, especially when taken together.

I have done this, and GPT4 will frequently make inferences on par with the "optimystic" one. For example I just tried "surfrandma" and it said "It appears to be a combination of the words "surf" and "grandma", but without additional context, it's challenging to provide a precise meaning."

Re:Don Knuth Plays with ChatGPT by Sharlin on Saturday May 20, 2023 @02:19PM (#36014291)
It can do so much more that the fact that it can go from "optimystic" to "optimistic" and "mystic" is extremely mundane in comparison.
Re:Don Knuth Plays with ChatGPT by Waterluvian on Saturday May 20, 2023 @03:31PM (#36014842)
Like what? And how does one measure that it is more impressive or less mundane?
Re:Don Knuth Plays with ChatGPT by Sharlin on Saturday May 20, 2023 @04:38PM (#36015372)
Like just about anything. And the measure is something like "does someone who has spent some time with GPT-4 find it at all surprising that it can do X". A posteriori, it would be much more surprising if GPT-4 failed to resolve "optimystic" to "mystic" and "optimistic".
Re:Don Knuth Plays with ChatGPT by lone-commenter on Saturday May 20, 2023 @01:32PM (#36013850)
I just tried asking ChatGPT #5 and it answered this:

I'm sorry, but the term "optimystic" does not have a widely recognized or established meaning. It appears to be a combination of the words "optimistic" and "mystic," [...]

Re:Don Knuth Plays with ChatGPT by eesmith on Saturday May 20, 2023 @02:04PM (#36014153)
Google Scholar found some uses, like Beyond Boredom and Anxiety: The Experience of Play in Work and Games. by Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi, Review by: Murray S. Davis Source: Contemporary Sociology , Mar., 1977, Vol. 6, No. 2 (Mar., 1977), pp. 197-199 at https://www.jstor.org/stable/pdf/2065805.pdf

> Sociologists will find most provocative the author's alternative to Erving Goffman's analysis of self-consciousness. Both are mystics in the sense that they investigate the conditions causing someone to lose self-consciousness. But Goffman is what I would call a pessimystic, for in Frame Analysis (1974:378ff) he examines how the self disappears in the "negative experience" that results when situational contradictions increase its stress; Csikszentmihalyi is an optimystic, for he ex- amines how the self disappears in the "flow experience" that results when situational consonances decrease its stress

and "Anglophonia and Optimysticism: Sebastian Knight’s Bookshelves"

> The Anglophone universe becomes a linguistic afterlife in which Nabokov optimistically hopes to resurrect his Russian art, just as he “optimystically” (the pun belongs to Sebastian Knight’s “Dean Park”) expects that the otherworld preserves the spirits of his dead.

Further, https://archive.org/details/libraryjournal122sep/page/n489/m...

> Coauthors Taylor and Crain discuss the concept of "optimysticism," first intro- duced in Taylor's Messengers of Light. The phrase refers to the ability to see beyond the worst of situations to the mystery of goodness at the core of life.

and from 'The optimystic's handbook' at https://archive.org/details/optimysticshandb00tayl/page/n15/...

> Optimysticism is the choice we make not only to experience the best of this world but also to see beyond this world into eternity, and in doing so, to live the mystery of the fullest here on earth.

No well established meaning.

Re:Don Knuth Plays with ChatGPT by visarga on Saturday May 20, 2023 @01:34PM (#36013865)
> "As of my knowledge cutoff in September 2021"

> "However, as an AI language model, I don't"

...

Why don't they just use an emoji to replace this whole boilerplate phrase? It would make it more bearable. For each of the boilerplate phrases one emoji. Or just have a bunch of tags #Cutoff_2021, #LM_can't

In my native tongue, this kind of speaking is called "wooden language" and it is considered insulting.

Re:Don Knuth Plays with ChatGPT by ineedasername on Saturday May 20, 2023 @02:09PM (#36014191)
Would you mind sharing what your native tongue is? The negative connotation of "wooden language" is fascinating. [1]

[1] Just a note for others similarly fascinated by these sorts of linguistic items, there's an excellent book that explores this concept space: Metaphors We Live By, George Lakoff and Mark Johnson

Re:Don Knuth Plays with ChatGPT by matthew9219 on Saturday May 20, 2023 @02:30PM (#36014390)
I'm not the person you replied to, but in my native tongue (English), excessive repetition is also poor usage. Repeating the question too literally is indicative of unsophisticated (pre-college) writing, and repeating the same phrases word for word a signal that you don't believe your listener is paying attention to your words (as opposed to rephrasing, which signals that your prior explanation might have been unclear).

I've been a bit shocked how poor ChatGPT's usage is - it writes more like a very articulate 15 year old than like an adult - and how nobody else seems to notice. I can't help but think part of the reason nobody is noticing is that most of the attention is coming from engineers (for whom language is not a top skill).

Re:Don Knuth Plays with ChatGPT by revertmean on Saturday May 20, 2023 @03:27PM (#36014807)
Everybody noticed. It's what people mean when they refer to a comment sounding like it was written by ChatGPT.

I suspect it's a deliberate choice, much as The Sun newspaper aims at an 8 year old reading level, while newspapers like The Times or Guardian aim at 14 year old. Try asking ChatGPT to shift to a more advanced level.

Also, the whole "say what you're going to say, say it, say what you said" technique is very common because it works. Even "smart" people don't remember things quite as well as they think they do.

Re:Don Knuth Plays with ChatGPT by guenthert on Saturday May 20, 2023 @04:12PM (#36015133)
> I've been a bit shocked how poor ChatGPT's usage is - it writes more like a very articulate 15 year old than like an adult - and how nobody else seems to notice.

No, we're just mesmerized that a freaking machine, a bunch of PCBs and wires, can fairly convincingly impersonate a 15 year old, including making stuff up with great confidence.

Re:Don Knuth Plays with ChatGPT by YeGoblynQueenne on Saturday May 20, 2023 @05:14PM (#36015693)
The expression exists in English:

Wooden language is language that uses vague, ambiguous, abstract or pompous words in order to divert attention from the salient issues.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wooden_language

Re:Don Knuth Plays with ChatGPT by ineedasername on Sunday May 21, 2023 @10:09AM (#36021013)
I thought they meant it in the context of boilerplate, which is a little different than what’s described in the wiki link. But I think we’re probably just talking about subtle shades and degrees of of the sense. I had thought the original comment was referencing a non-English term that had a literal translation to English as “wooden” but with a subtle difference in meaning than it’s usage in English.

I may have been overthinking things— I do that (and I don’t count it as an inherently positive trait) but the general topic is still interesting and still highly recommend the book I referenced.

Re:Don Knuth Plays with ChatGPT by throw310822 on Saturday May 20, 2023 @05:30PM (#36015801)
In Italian we use "wooden" also to mean "lacking in grace or agility, rigid, awkward".
Re:Don Knuth Plays with ChatGPT by wilg on Saturday May 20, 2023 @02:13PM (#36014226)
Your proposed alternatives are much worse, because they are esoteric and confusing.
Re:Don Knuth Plays with ChatGPT by helloplanets on Saturday May 20, 2023 @02:22PM (#36014323)
I'm just imagining a random elderly person trying ChatGPT for the first time and getting a robot emoji with #Cutoff_2021 after asking a question about Donald Trump
Re:Don Knuth Plays with ChatGPT by sunk1st on Saturday May 20, 2023 @02:24PM (#36014330)
It makes sense that in another language you might not phrase things this way. But in English we do.
Re:Don Knuth Plays with ChatGPT by kzrdude on Saturday May 20, 2023 @02:55PM (#36014566)
I think they have to hedge this way to "make everyone happy", including twitter or publications that want to shame them for what their chatbot has said.
Re:Don Knuth Plays with ChatGPT by whstl on Saturday May 20, 2023 @03:02PM (#36014616)
"Similarly, on question #18, Knuth complains that GPT doesn't know the stock market is closed on Saturday, yet the GPT4 answer begins"

Both ChatGPT and GPT-4 seem to know that NASDAQ is closed Saturday, but at least to me, both "forget it" and answer with a boilerplate disclaimer that it can't predict the stock market when you ask them the exact question made by Knuth.

This seems to be part of its "programming". It also has super long disclaimers when asked about life advice, relationship advice, or legal advice, and those disclaimers seem to take precedence over prompts you give ("be concise" is thrown out the window), or even the questions themselves.

Re:Don Knuth Plays with ChatGPT by mhh__ on Saturday May 20, 2023 @11:54AM (#36012962)
Par for the course, no? Knuth's work this side of the 80s is always very thoughtful, very methodical, but slightly detached from the cutting edge/fast pace of modernity. Don't even mean that in a bad way.
Re:Don Knuth Plays with ChatGPT by bombcar on Saturday May 20, 2023 @11:55AM (#36012976)
Someone can run these through right now if they wanted to.
Re:Don Knuth Plays with ChatGPT by varjag on Saturday May 20, 2023 @11:57AM (#36012986)
Welcome to academia, where human effort is cheaper than office supplies!
Re:Don Knuth Plays with ChatGPT by drexlspivey on Saturday May 20, 2023 @12:17PM (#36013171)
He also asked Stephen Wolfram some random Mathematica question that you can easily google or find in the docs. Like imagine emailing Tim Cook asking how to put your phone on silent.
Re:Don Knuth Plays with ChatGPT by cubefox on Saturday May 20, 2023 @12:38PM (#36013369)
Yeah that's funny. I'm sure Wolfram is happy to answer his questions.
Re:Don Knuth Plays with ChatGPT by banku_brougham on Saturday May 20, 2023 @01:31PM (#36013829)
I think Tim Cook has been asked this question at least once by one of his contemporaries.
Re:Don Knuth Plays with ChatGPT by Sharlin on Saturday May 20, 2023 @02:20PM (#36014303)
Sometimes people just enjoy a friendly correspondence.
Re:Don Knuth Plays with ChatGPT by bombcar on Saturday May 20, 2023 @03:08PM (#36014672)
When your Knuth you don’t need to bother searching for things.

Who here would ignore even the most mundane question from him?

Re:Don Knuth Plays with ChatGPT by krackers on Saturday May 20, 2023 @06:25PM (#36016204)
In return I bet Wolframs gets to ask Knuth his TeX questions.
Re:Don Knuth Plays with ChatGPT by manquer on Saturday May 20, 2023 @11:57PM (#36017891)
If you are Knuth who has access and the privilege why not ask the THE authoritative source on a topic ? especially since Stephen Wolfram is only an email away for him.

It is also why ChatGPT is so impactful, asking a question in conversation is so much powerful than searching the docs .

The power of conversational learning is well known since Socrates time after all.

Re:Don Knuth Plays with ChatGPT by oefnak on Sunday May 21, 2023 @01:33AM (#36018297)
"Just press the power button seven times in a row." ^_^
Re:Don Knuth Plays with ChatGPT by ayhanfuat on Saturday May 20, 2023 @12:17PM (#36013175)
It could just as well be that he wanted to comment on the version that is accessible by everyone.
Re:Don Knuth Plays with ChatGPT by zooch on Saturday May 20, 2023 @12:37PM (#36013354)
Also, how is typing the questions in an email to a grad student simpler than using the chatGPT UI. He's instructed his own authentic intelligence assistant to interact with the artificial intelligence assistant for him.
Re:Don Knuth Plays with ChatGPT by rahimnathwani on Saturday May 20, 2023 @04:13PM (#36015145)
Only if we assume Knuth clicks 'agree' to T&Cs without reading them.
Re:Don Knuth Plays with ChatGPT by quickthrower2 on Saturday May 20, 2023 @05:10PM (#36015644)
As an aside, RMS avoids end running like that: if he is ethically opposed to the service he tries to avoid getting someone to do his bidding.
Re:Don Knuth Plays with ChatGPT by manquer on Saturday May 20, 2023 @11:59PM (#36017904)
I don’t think it would be about ethically problematic for Knuth it would be more about he would like to know precisely the details

at his age he has to be super conservative about what he spends his time

Re:Don Knuth Plays with ChatGPT by june_twenty on Saturday May 20, 2023 @04:53PM (#36015509)
Wait, it not being GPT-4 makes this redundant.