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Re:U.S. prison labor programs violate fundamental human righ... by DirectorKrennic on Friday May 19, 2023 @09:59AM (#36002023)
This is a prison in Norway: https://thenorwayguide.com/norwegian-prisons/

> The rate of recidivism in Norway is around 20%. So only 1 in 5 end up back in prison, while the majority of people (4 in 5) don’t return to prison within a few years.

> This is a sharp contrast to even the neighbor countries like Sweden with 61% and Denmark with 63%. American prisons tend to have around 60 – 75 % in most states, but it varies a lot by state.

And here is a NYT article on the same prison: https://www.nytimes.com/2015/03/29/magazine/the-radical-huma...

Re:U.S. prison labor programs violate fundamental human righ... by marginalia_nu on Friday May 19, 2023 @10:01AM (#36002042)
To be fair, Norway is also an incredibly wealthy country that can afford to do things that many other countries simply can't.
Re:U.S. prison labor programs violate fundamental human righ... by Broken_Hippo on Friday May 19, 2023 @10:17AM (#36002279)
There is no reason that the US can't do this. The US is a wealthy country. The US has oil money of its own that it could invest. The US already spends a great deal on the prison system. This would just be spending some of that money differently.

One could start by not putting as many folks in prisons and jails. You don't have to be a wealthy country to do that.

Re:U.S. prison labor programs violate fundamental human righ... by marginalia_nu on Friday May 19, 2023 @10:25AM (#36002371)
> One could start by not putting as many folks in prisons and jails. You don't have to be a wealthy country to do that.

Norway is able to put fewer people in prison because it puts more emphasis on crime prevention. The US chose a different a long time ago, probably even as far back as the war on drugs. It's going to be very hard to put the toothpaste back in the tube again, if that's even possible.

Re:U.S. prison labor programs violate fundamental human righ... by tivert on Friday May 19, 2023 @11:35AM (#36003168)
> There is no reason that the US can't do this. The US is a wealthy country.

Besides being wealthy, isn't Norway pretty culturally/ethnically homogeneous? That may be a pretty important factor that may contribute to making their policy choices work.

Similarly, isn't it a welfare state? That could also play a pretty significant role, too.

Re:U.S. prison labor programs violate fundamental human righ... by Broken_Hippo on Friday May 19, 2023 @05:33PM (#36007100)
Besides being wealthy, isn't Norway pretty culturally/ethnically homogeneous?

I dunno. I'm an immigrant here, and my view might be skewed. That said, my own life has more diversity than it ever did in the US - I'm from the midwest. More types of folks. And I don't live in Oslo. That's no real reason that jails in the US can't be better and actually treat people like people that are going to live next door to you in the future. Being diverse isn't a reason to give long jail sentences or avoid jail/prison for more things. You certainly don't need a homogenous culture to do that sort of thing.

And yes, it is a welfare state, which means there are slightly fewer desperate people. I don't view that as a good thing - some of the folks here would just be left to die in the US. Some things also just mean a less stressful life - you know, like health care not making you go broke. It isn't perfect, mind you, and folks still fall through the cracks, but I'm sure it helps.

Re:U.S. prison labor programs violate fundamental human righ... by polski-g on Tuesday May 23, 2023 @11:41AM (#36045935)
Norway is able to put less people in prison because less people in Norway commit crime. The murder rate in the United States is almost 15 times greater.
Re:U.S. prison labor programs violate fundamental human righ... by wafflemaker on Friday May 19, 2023 @10:20AM (#36002318)
Not the wealth plays major role here, but relatively small difference between richest and poorest people, that makes crime rates quite low in Norway.

Having people in prison for a shorter period is still cheaper than having them come back again and again. For smaller crimes people are allowed to go home for the evenings/weekends and the biggest punishment really is loosing the ability to work.

I guess that this can prevent people from completely loosing touch with outside world which makes it easier to go back to a normal life.

Example article on crimes vs equality.

https://www.economist.com/graphic-detail/2018/06/07/the-star...

Re:U.S. prison labor programs violate fundamental human righ... by Retric on Friday May 19, 2023 @10:03AM (#36002070)
Norway is being compared to other very wealthy countries here.
Re:U.S. prison labor programs violate fundamental human righ... by jongjong on Friday May 19, 2023 @10:17AM (#36002271)
Norway is far richer than US on a per-capita basis. Also, US mean wealth is a lot higher than its median wealth (which is what really counts). Any dirt-poor country could print money to give a few trillion dollars of nominal wealth to a single dictator and achieve a high mean wealth but everyone else in the country would be dirt poor.
Re:U.S. prison labor programs violate fundamental human righ... by Retric on Friday May 19, 2023 @10:40AM (#36002541)
Printing money doesn’t create net wealth even if it seems like it should you just get inflation.

Dictators are wealthy because even taking a few dollars per month from millions of people adds up fast.

Re:U.S. prison labor programs violate fundamental human righ... by avgcorrection on Friday May 19, 2023 @10:19AM (#36002313)
Income and wealth inequality also drives crime, indeed.
Re:U.S. prison labor programs violate fundamental human righ... by marginalia_nu on Friday May 19, 2023 @10:04AM (#36002090)
Not really. Norway has oil money. It's basically Scandinavian Saudi Arabia (but less off the rails).
Re:U.S. prison labor programs violate fundamental human righ... by Retric on Friday May 19, 2023 @10:18AM (#36002302)
Norway’s per capita GDP is close to the US. It peaks higher, but is more volatile depending on oil prices.

https://www.macrotrends.net/countries/NOR/norway/gdp-per-cap...

https://www.macrotrends.net/countries/USA/united-states/gdp-...

Re:U.S. prison labor programs violate fundamental human righ... by marginalia_nu on Friday May 19, 2023 @10:24AM (#36002354)
Norway also has trillions of dollars in its sovereign wealth fund. Like they could all stop working tomorrow and be fine for a couple of years living off their national savings account.
Re:U.S. prison labor programs violate fundamental human righ... by Retric on Friday May 19, 2023 @10:37AM (#36002513)
The returns from that sovereign wealth fund are already included in the GDP figures.
Re:U.S. prison labor programs violate fundamental human righ... by dragonwriter on Friday May 19, 2023 @10:48AM (#36002627)
> The returns from that sovereign wealth fund are already included in the GDP figures.

No, they aren’t (except that the production that produces them is, for domestic investments), because investment returns aren’t finished goods and services, and GDP is the aggregate value of finished goods and services produced. Counting investment returns on top of that would be double counting for domestic investment, and counting something completely outside for foreign investments.

Re:U.S. prison labor programs violate fundamental human righ... by Retric on Friday May 19, 2023 @10:55AM (#36002696)
Sorry, I should have been more clear. By returns I mean the impact on the economy from extracting money from the oil fund which first did in 2016. Essentially the fund had zero impact to their economy before 2016.

There’s significant debate around how much money should be taken from the fund to subsidize government services, but simply having money in an account they aren’t accessing doesn’t change the day to day finances.

Re:U.S. prison labor programs violate fundamental human righ... by marginalia_nu on Friday May 19, 2023 @11:48AM (#36003327)
Being the national equivalent of independently wealthy does sort of change the sort of risks you're able to take, even without actually dipping into the fund. I don't think GDP captures this fact at all.
Re:U.S. prison labor programs violate fundamental human righ... by Retric on Friday May 19, 2023 @12:02PM (#36003508)
I could see that for large R&D projects or something, but I have trouble seeing how that’s related to the penal system.

Recidivism data really lags spending. Remember they need to have left prison 3+ years ago or you don’t know if they will go back in that time period and to have some effect you’re really talking about money allocated 5+ years ago.

Re:U.S. prison labor programs violate fundamental human righ... by thelastgallon on Sunday May 21, 2023 @01:36AM (#36018311)
US is the worlds largest oil and natural gas producer.
Re:U.S. prison labor programs violate fundamental human righ... by alphager on Friday May 19, 2023 @10:07AM (#36002142)
This would be a valid reason when compared to a third world country, but not to the country with the seventh highest GDP per capita (Norway is fifth).
Re:U.S. prison labor programs violate fundamental human righ... by marginalia_nu on Friday May 19, 2023 @10:08AM (#36002152)
GDP/capita isn't really everything. Norway's got an enormous sovereign wealth fund with decades of oil money.
Re:U.S. prison labor programs violate fundamental human righ... by robmccoll on Friday May 19, 2023 @10:12AM (#36002203)
Someone should tell that to our government. Meanwhile we've (USA) been taking spending shortcuts and borrowing against our future to enable GDP growth over the same time period with no return in sight.
Re:U.S. prison labor programs violate fundamental human righ... by ethbr0 on Friday May 19, 2023 @10:26AM (#36002382)
The USD is a world trade and reserve currency. If you don't run deficits, the monetary supply part of that system gets a bit wonky.

The Norwegian krone is used more than other currencies (oil), but isn't nearly the same.

Re:U.S. prison labor programs violate fundamental human righ... by SuoDuanDao on Friday May 19, 2023 @10:24AM (#36002356)
Spending more to reduce recidivism is like insulating your house - if you think you can't afford it, you probably can't afford not to do it.
Re:U.S. prison labor programs violate fundamental human righ... by UtopiaPunk on Friday May 19, 2023 @10:16AM (#36002265)
But is it the wealthiest country?
Re:U.S. prison labor programs violate fundamental human righ... by 0xFF0123 on Friday May 19, 2023 @10:11AM (#36002188)
For comparison: Norway GDP per capita: 89k USD USA GDP per capita: 70k USD

Norway GNI per capita: 83k PPP USA GNI per capita: 70k PPP

Re:U.S. prison labor programs violate fundamental human righ... by marginalia_nu on Friday May 19, 2023 @10:12AM (#36002206)
Re:U.S. prison labor programs violate fundamental human righ... by manuelabeledo on Friday May 19, 2023 @10:02AM (#36002055)
Compared to the US?
[dead]
Re:U.S. prison labor programs violate fundamental human righ... by jakobnissen on Friday May 19, 2023 @10:14AM (#36002235)
Possibly, but if you're hinting a racist point, Norway has more immigrants than Denmark (per Capita), and a larger fraction of their immigrants are from Africa.
Re:U.S. prison labor programs violate fundamental human righ... by nathan_compton on Friday May 19, 2023 @10:06AM (#36002120)
Just come out and say it, coward.
Re:U.S. prison labor programs violate fundamental human righ... by hfkwer on Friday May 19, 2023 @10:09AM (#36002156)
Can you elaborate? Why would people in Norway have "better control over impulsivity"?
Re:U.S. prison labor programs violate fundamental human righ... by sandos on Friday May 19, 2023 @10:12AM (#36002200)
As a Swede, I agree. Even official reports agree with this nowadays. 10 years or so ago it was not ok to even breath a word about this in Sweden, nothing bad came from immigration, but with the success of the right-wing Svergigdemokraterna it became a lot more ok to talk about systemic problems in Sweden.
Re:U.S. prison labor programs violate fundamental human righ... by jakobnissen on Friday May 19, 2023 @10:24AM (#36002359)
It's not enough to agree. You'll have to actually show evidence of what OP was hinting. To remind you, he was hinting that Norway's better recidivism rates than Denmark and Sweden was due to its people.

So: Can you show any such evidence? Because from where I sit, it certainly looks like Norway has more African and middle easters immigrants than Denmark, but still have more of them employed and have lower recidivism rates. So.... Where do you get it from?

Re:U.S. prison labor programs violate fundamental human righ... by orangepurple on Sunday May 21, 2023 @07:45AM (#36019956)
It's almost like not everything in the world revolves around race like it does in your mind.
Re:U.S. prison labor programs violate fundamental human righ... by giraffe_lady on Friday May 19, 2023 @10:17AM (#36002293)
"Now that literally the nazi party has become mainstream it's ok to say this stuff" is certainly... a statement....
Re:U.S. prison labor programs violate fundamental human righ... by Broken_Hippo on Friday May 19, 2023 @10:14AM (#36002233)
Well, this is false.
Re:U.S. prison labor programs violate fundamental human righ... by jakobnissen on Friday May 19, 2023 @10:06AM (#36002125)
According to Denmark's Statistics, recidivism was 32% from 2018-2020 when considering crime within 2 years of getting out of prison.
Re:U.S. prison labor programs violate fundamental human righ... by thejackgoode on Friday May 19, 2023 @10:07AM (#36002133)
Even without US specifics, prison systems seem to not have adapted to the declined birth rate. Maybe the luxury of measuring the system by recidivism rate is more affordable for societies now.
Re:U.S. prison labor programs violate fundamental human righ... by mdgrech23 on Friday May 19, 2023 @10:02AM (#36002053)
I feel like a big part of it boils down to why steal/do illegal shit when you don't have to. In a place like Norway so many of your needs are going to be taken care of by the state.
Re:U.S. prison labor programs violate fundamental human righ... by NDizzle on Friday May 19, 2023 @10:11AM (#36002194)
If the US split up prisoners by race, only then could you compare it to Scandinavian prisons.

But then we'd have a different article, talking about yet a different injustice.

Re:U.S. prison labor programs violate fundamental human righ... by LatteLazy on Friday May 19, 2023 @10:06AM (#36002113)
That's nice, but before you raise prisoners' standard of living to that, you have to do it for everyone. I would like that. But that is often missed in these debates...