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Re:Adult-Use Cannabis Delivers $15B in Tax Revenues by simonswords82 on Tuesday May 02, 2023 @11:07AM (#35788637)
Meanwhile the UK has got it's thumb up its ass and is happily maintaining a status quo of the worst of all worlds

1) The police are still supposed to arrest people who are caught with cannabis (It's a class B drug - in the same group as codeine, ketamine, and ‘spice’ - whatever the hell that is).

In reality they typically let people off with a warning but it's still a drain on our already hamstrung police force

2) Drug dealers who sell weed tend not to declare and pay tax on their earnings. Depriving UK Gov of some seriously needed income per this article's headline.

3) Drug dealers tend to sell other drugs, usually harder drugs. Thus exposing people who want to get stoned to a plethora of other drugs that they might otherwise not have come in to contact with.

4) Those people who are hooked on weed (or any other non-prescribed drug) are criminals...and cannot seek help from anybody including their doctor. This keeps them trapped, and over a long enough period of time will do mental and potentially physical damage to them that our NHS will incur costs to fix. And when I say NHS, I mean the tax payers, and when I say tax payers - I mean me.

All of that is to say - fuck UK drug policy. I remain hopeful that it will change though...

Re:Adult-Use Cannabis Delivers $15B in Tax Revenues by mtlmtlmtlmtl on Tuesday May 02, 2023 @11:38AM (#35789243)
Spice is slang for synthetic cannabinoids sprayed on some herb. The fact that it's classed in a group with codeine and cannabis is bizarre. These drugs are fucking dangerous. Possible effects include stroke, acute kidney failure, acute psychosis, psychological trauma. They gave me a transient ischaemic attack at the age of 21. Seriously. No permanent damage though, I was extremely lucky. My kidney function was in the gutter too but they bounced back. A friend of mine permanently lost his mind from it. Now he sits in his room all day muttering strange phrases and drooling from the clozapine they have him on.

Why did I do this? I was forced to do drug tests for cannabis more or less against my will(under duress). And I was a stupid kid who wanted to get high, and these horrible drugs were easily available, advertised as not showing up on tests, etc.

I have the chief responsibility for my own actions of course, but it's hard to ignore the fact that none of it would've happened if not for an extremely draconian and outmoded approach to drugs.

Re:Adult-Use Cannabis Delivers $15B in Tax Revenues by simonswords82 on Tuesday May 02, 2023 @11:40AM (#35789286)
Good job they stopped you from taking that pesky cannabis /s

Seriously though that's awful, sorry to hear that and glad you came out the other side (relatively) unharmed.

Re:Adult-Use Cannabis Delivers $15B in Tax Revenues by MagicMoonlight on Tuesday May 02, 2023 @12:05PM (#35789723)
Spice is incredibly harmful and it’s just a stronger version of cannabis. It’s therefore reasonable to consider that cannabis may be harmful in the same way, just less obviously so.
Re:Adult-Use Cannabis Delivers $15B in Tax Revenues by mtlmtlmtlmtl on Tuesday May 02, 2023 @12:27PM (#35790047)
It's reasonable to consider, absolutely. But once you do, and consider the pharmacology in particular, you'll find that it mostly isn't. Cannabinoids including THC can induce anxiety. Synthetic cannabinoids can easily induce psychosis, THC can do so much more rarely.

But that's about where the overlap ends. There are many reasons for this. The main one is that synthetic cannabinoids tend to be full agonists at both the CB1 and CB2 receptors, whereas THC is a partial agonist. This means that there are effects that synthetics can do that THC simply can't. In addition, they're much, much more potent; some such compounds have active doses in the 100mcg range. Cannabis also contains other compounds that counteract some downstream effects of THC most notably CBD, but also CBG.

Weed is not going to box your kidneys. CB2 is heavily expressed in kidney tissues, and extremely potent full agonist activity at CB2 is probably why they're so nephrotoxic. THC simply just isn't potent enough in doses that can be reasonably consumed.

Synth noids are also extremely vasoconstrictive and this is how they can cause strokes. They have vasoconstriction comparable to meth, moreishness comparable to crack, and immobilising effcts comparable to heroin. So what ends up happening is you binge. Hard. Maybe for weeks, all while remaining mostly immobile between doses. All while pumping your system full of vasoconstrictors. Weed on the other hand can be vasoconstrictive or vasodilating, depending on the relative content of the various plant cannabinoids. And it's nowhere near as vasoconstrictive as synth noids.

It is probably the case that extremely heavy cannabis use can cause enough immobility over time to increase risk of stroke. But it would take years and years, not days.

Re:Adult-Use Cannabis Delivers $15B in Tax Revenues by ehvatum on Tuesday May 02, 2023 @12:23PM (#35789989)
Benzoylindole, the active ingredient in most “Spice” products, is not found in cannabis and its metabolites are toxic as hell.
Re:Adult-Use Cannabis Delivers $15B in Tax Revenues by tikhonj on Tuesday May 02, 2023 @12:20PM (#35789950)
≈everything is toxic in sufficient quantity or density, from obviously harmful substances like caffeine (powdered caffeine can easily be fatal!) to water.
Re:Adult-Use Cannabis Delivers $15B in Tax Revenues by bitcoin_anon on Tuesday May 02, 2023 @12:17PM (#35789913)
Spice contains novel cannabanoids (and probably residual chemicals) so it is a different beast altogether.

Cannabis concentrates, e.g. dabs, rosin, BHO are stronger versions of cannabis.

Re:Adult-Use Cannabis Delivers $15B in Tax Revenues by mozey on Tuesday May 02, 2023 @12:18PM (#35789920)
Whisky can be incredible harmful and it's just a stronger version of wine... difference is the label clearly states the percentage alcohol
Re:Adult-Use Cannabis Delivers $15B in Tax Revenues by Apocryphon on Tuesday May 02, 2023 @12:17PM (#35789915)
In the same way beer and wine is less obviously harmful than wood alcohol, sure.
Re:Adult-Use Cannabis Delivers $15B in Tax Revenues by karp773 on Tuesday May 02, 2023 @06:57PM (#35795297)
> outmoded approach to drugs.

Drugs are illegal for a good reason. What did you expect?

Your friend lost his mind, you narrowly escaped death and you blame the government for making this substance illegal? Correct?

Re:Adult-Use Cannabis Delivers $15B in Tax Revenues by mtlmtlmtlmtl on Tuesday May 02, 2023 @08:53PM (#35796346)
Incorrect.

These drugs were legal at the time. I blame myself for my own actions(but it was almost a decade ago and I have moved on, which is why I'm comfortable being open about it), but blame is not always singular. The state is also partially to blame because they banned all the good drugs, leading to grey markets with dangerous, untested, experimental drugs.

As for my friend, I had nothing to do with what happened to him, I only met him after the fact.

Re:Adult-Use Cannabis Delivers $15B in Tax Revenues by kaon123 on Tuesday May 02, 2023 @11:13AM (#35788775)
And the production of these drugs is still illegal, which has led to a big increase in (the wealth of) organised crime, similar to how the Maffia was spawned during the prohibition.

I am not joking. In the Netherlands a druglord has ordered the assassination of one of its most famous journalists, and has blackmailed one of the most renowned lawyers to break the law. The netherlands exports $20bn (!!!) worth of MDMA and XTC per year. Where do you think these criminal instutions come from?

Re:Adult-Use Cannabis Delivers $15B in Tax Revenues by whimsicalism on Tuesday May 02, 2023 @11:21AM (#35788920)
Yes, Europe is well-known for its intense organized crime.

I doubt cannabis legalization would have much impact on this - the big organized crime control things like the cocaine & opioid trade.

Looking up the assassination you mentioned, it looks like it was perpetuated by cocaine-dealing organized crime.

Also, what is XTC?

Re:Adult-Use Cannabis Delivers $15B in Tax Revenues by alephnerd on Tuesday May 02, 2023 @11:26AM (#35789020)
Ecstasy. It's a party drug that's extremely popular in the rave scene.
Re:Adult-Use Cannabis Delivers $15B in Tax Revenues by whimsicalism on Tuesday May 02, 2023 @11:26AM (#35789035)
But that's the same as MDMA?
Re:Adult-Use Cannabis Delivers $15B in Tax Revenues by ShortStretto on Tuesday May 02, 2023 @11:32AM (#35789131)
XTC usually refers to MDMA in pill form, used to be contaminated/mixed with some other additives but it's largely MDMA these days.

Source https://www.drugsinfo.nl/xtc/wat-je-moet-weten-over-xtc

Re:Adult-Use Cannabis Delivers $15B in Tax Revenues by beepbooptheory on Tuesday May 02, 2023 @12:19PM (#35789942)
In high school (as a bad kid) we used to get all sorts of different "ecstasy" pills with nicknames like "blue ladies" or "bugs bunnies" or whatever. You never quite knew what it was going to be like, or whether even the blue lady you had this time was even the same as the one you had last time. Looking back, the spectrum of effects we would get were definitely due to whether they were cut with uppers or downers. It ranged from more typical emotional experiences you attribute to ecstasy (cocaine/meth), to more "body high" ones which were probably opiates of some sort.

Am very happy to hear this kind of thing is more rare. Not that street users have too much more assurance either way the MDMA they are getting is in fact MDMA, but hopefully thar whatever analogues there are now are a little better than meth or heroin.

Re:Adult-Use Cannabis Delivers $15B in Tax Revenues by chimeracoder on Tuesday May 02, 2023 @01:19PM (#35790994)
> Am very happy to hear this kind of thing is more rare. Not that street users have too much more assurance either way the MDMA they are getting is in fact MDMA, but hopefully thar whatever analogues there are now are a little better than meth or heroin.

Almost all Ecstasy/MDMA outside a pharmaceutical setting is adulterated, usually with other amphetamines. The degree of adulteration varies, and in some cases it may not be very noticeable by the user, but it's incredibly rare to find pure MDMA outside of a pharmaceutical setting.

Methamphetamine is one of the most common adulterants. (This is a bit of a misnomer, because MDMA is itself actually a methamphetamine, but it's not the one most people are referring to when they say "meth").

Re:Adult-Use Cannabis Delivers $15B in Tax Revenues by beepbooptheory on Tuesday May 02, 2023 @03:04PM (#35792551)
Ah well... Nevertheless
Re:Adult-Use Cannabis Delivers $15B in Tax Revenues by chimeracoder on Tuesday May 02, 2023 @01:16PM (#35790947)
> XTC usually refers to MDMA in pill form, used to be contaminated/mixed with some other additives but it's largely MDMA these days.

Ecstasy is almost never pure. While the degree of contamination varies and may not be subjectively noticeable by the user, the vast majority of ecstasy has some degree of adulterants in it, often other amphetamines, and sometimes other substances altogether.

Re:Adult-Use Cannabis Delivers $15B in Tax Revenues by fathyb on Tuesday May 02, 2023 @11:30AM (#35789094)
MDMA is the chemical name, like ethanol is the chemical name for alcoholic beverages.
Re:Adult-Use Cannabis Delivers $15B in Tax Revenues by whimsicalism on Tuesday May 02, 2023 @11:32AM (#35789129)
Seems like an imperfect analogy because straight MDMA would be called ecstacy whereas straight ethanol would not be called beer or wine.

My understanding had always been the two were synonymous.

Re:Adult-Use Cannabis Delivers $15B in Tax Revenues by beardedetim on Tuesday May 02, 2023 @01:09PM (#35790819)
In my party days,I always understood MDMAas being pure MDMA while X was MDMA mixed with coke, meth, or heroin to make the drug effects last longer, as the half life of MDMA is smaller than those other three.
Re:Adult-Use Cannabis Delivers $15B in Tax Revenues by chimeracoder on Tuesday May 02, 2023 @01:25PM (#35791085)
> In my party days,I always understood MDMAas being pure MDMA while X was MDMA mixed with coke, meth, or heroin to make the drug effects last longer, as the half life of MDMA is smaller than those other three.

This is a common misconception. MDMA is often presented as "pure" (often by the people selling it), but in reality, almost all MDMA outside of a pharmaceutical setting is impure. Most MDMA contains some amount of methamphetamine[0], but not necessarily enough to be subjectively identifiable by a user as "meth".

Also, the half-life of MDMA is longer than cocaine, but shorter than methamphetamine.

[0] MDMA is actually a methamphetamine, but it's not the one that people are referring to when they say "meth" colloquially.

Re:Adult-Use Cannabis Delivers $15B in Tax Revenues by kirill5pol on Tuesday May 02, 2023 @11:27AM (#35789055)
From sounding out “XTC”, I’m assuming it means ecstasy.
Re:Adult-Use Cannabis Delivers $15B in Tax Revenues by toyg on Tuesday May 02, 2023 @11:44AM (#35789354)
> Europe is well-known for its intense organized crime.

Lol, like it weren't the case pretty much everywhere else... Anywhere there is a significant amount of humans, there is "intense organized crime" too; any difference in outcomes is largely due to how authorities decide to address it.

Re:Adult-Use Cannabis Delivers $15B in Tax Revenues by whimsicalism on Tuesday May 02, 2023 @12:08PM (#35789758)
Organized crime exists in the US but has basically been destroyed at the higher-levels by RICO and intensive federal enforcement.

By contrast, there are parts of Italy where 75%+ of businesses are reported paying protection payments to organized crime.

Re:Adult-Use Cannabis Delivers $15B in Tax Revenues by piva00 on Tuesday May 02, 2023 @01:12PM (#35790877)
The drug trade in the US is one of the most profitable in the world. Organised crime is behind it, there's no way that organised crime in the US has been destroyed at higher-levels, crime organisations still bring all the cocaine, MDMA, heroin and so on into the country, it's not small scale operations doing that.
Re:Adult-Use Cannabis Delivers $15B in Tax Revenues by whimsicalism on Tuesday May 02, 2023 @03:02PM (#35792523)
Fair enough, the cartels are modern American organized crime, but most of their operational bits are south of the border.
Re:Adult-Use Cannabis Delivers $15B in Tax Revenues by toyg on Tuesday May 02, 2023 @07:12PM (#35795471)
Yeah, after all everyone knows that prostitution rings, human trafficking, arm dealing, illegal lending, etc etc, they all run themselves. Time to disband all the dedicated police units then.
Re:Adult-Use Cannabis Delivers $15B in Tax Revenues by tokai on Tuesday May 02, 2023 @11:21AM (#35788933)
The model the Netherlands use is a bad choice. They didn't legalize but decriminalized use.
Re:Adult-Use Cannabis Delivers $15B in Tax Revenues by simonswords82 on Tuesday May 02, 2023 @11:37AM (#35789236)
But I thought Portugal did the same (decriminalise) and by all accounts they've had fantastic results?
Re:Adult-Use Cannabis Delivers $15B in Tax Revenues by tokai on Tuesday May 02, 2023 @11:42AM (#35789323)
As I understand it they had fantastic results for the health and life outcomes for addicts. Never heard anything about it bringing change to the actual drug market and criminal groups.
Re:Adult-Use Cannabis Delivers $15B in Tax Revenues by jonathankoren on Tuesday May 02, 2023 @01:16PM (#35790945)
I'd be curious to hear about Portugal's experience since it's been 20+ years since mass decriminalization. Whatever novelty effect is long past, and we now have a generation that grew up with the liberal policies. My quick search found articles written right after saying everything was going great, and obvious propaganda say that Portugal was nothing but a heroin den with everyone strung out everywhere.
Re:Adult-Use Cannabis Delivers $15B in Tax Revenues by monksy on Tuesday May 02, 2023 @10:33PM (#35797040)
Netherlands there are legitmate places to buy weed. Portugal, dealers will hassle you on the street (probably with fake stuff)
Re:Adult-Use Cannabis Delivers $15B in Tax Revenues by johnnyjeans on Tuesday May 02, 2023 @12:03PM (#35789679)
Most things aren't decriminalized, just psychedelic truffles (which are legal) and cannabis. Official policy is to tolerate everything, unless someone is being a nuisance.

The Netherlands is an interesting case. Despite amphetamine, MDMA, etc. being illegal, The Hague has turned a blind eye to massive industrial production farms in the south. At one point, the Netherlands almost held a monopoly on the world's MDMA production. Rumors of conspiracy suggest it's intentional, but the end result is the same. Many of these drugs are de facto legal, if not de jure. Of course, this was the landscape some decades ago. It's been changing. Mexican cartels are starting to elbow in, and it's been causing "problems". Watching how the government reacts to the evolving ecosystem is going to be intriguing.

Re:Adult-Use Cannabis Delivers $15B in Tax Revenues by sidewndr46 on Tuesday May 02, 2023 @11:19AM (#35788883)
I'm familiar with the meaning of MDMA, but is XTC some new street name for "ecstasy"
Re:Adult-Use Cannabis Delivers $15B in Tax Revenues by lwn on Tuesday May 02, 2023 @11:34AM (#35789176)
Ecstasy is usually shortened as "XTC", "E" or "X"
Re:Adult-Use Cannabis Delivers $15B in Tax Revenues by johnnyjeans on Tuesday May 02, 2023 @11:21AM (#35788923)
not new at all
Re:Adult-Use Cannabis Delivers $15B in Tax Revenues by whimsicalism on Tuesday May 02, 2023 @11:23AM (#35788968)
Maybe not new, but not very common in the US. And further confusing given that MDMA & XTC are synonyms then.
Re:Adult-Use Cannabis Delivers $15B in Tax Revenues by mason55 on Tuesday May 02, 2023 @11:35AM (#35789188)
The term "XTC" was a lot more common in the 90s rave scene.

As far as being synonyms, people generally differentiate between "ecstasy"/"E" as MDMA in pill form and "molly" as MDMA in powder form.

Re:Adult-Use Cannabis Delivers $15B in Tax Revenues by whimsicalism on Tuesday May 02, 2023 @11:36AM (#35789212)
Fascinating, I just call it all molly.

But maybe that's because I grew up in a time where you can send stuff to a lab to confirm what it is.

Re:Adult-Use Cannabis Delivers $15B in Tax Revenues by m4jor on Tuesday May 02, 2023 @12:16PM (#35789888)
molly is pure MDMA

XTC aka ecstacy is MDMA + additives like speed or caffeine/whatever.

Re:Adult-Use Cannabis Delivers $15B in Tax Revenues by madhato on Tuesday May 02, 2023 @12:18PM (#35789925)
I've always heard that MDMA refers to pure MDMA, while E refers to MDMA that has been cut with something. Must be a colloquial thing.
Re:Adult-Use Cannabis Delivers $15B in Tax Revenues by column on Tuesday May 02, 2023 @11:12AM (#35788750)
if you think that's the WORST of all worlds.. In Switzerland police might request a blood test to know if your weed is actually CBD (which is legal), and you have to cover the bill for the blood test REGARDLESS OF THE TEST RESULT.
Re:Adult-Use Cannabis Delivers $15B in Tax Revenues by clbrmbr on Tuesday May 02, 2023 @11:20AM (#35788912)
Why don’t the people just pass an initiative to legalize cannabis? Is there a lack of support in the more conservative cantons?
Re:Adult-Use Cannabis Delivers $15B in Tax Revenues by whimsicalism on Tuesday May 02, 2023 @11:20AM (#35788897)
how would a blood test possibly prove this?

"oh - this is CBD weed, but I did just get back from America where I was smoking a ton"

Re:Adult-Use Cannabis Delivers $15B in Tax Revenues by simonswords82 on Tuesday May 02, 2023 @11:16AM (#35788817)
Wow that's nuts - I did not know that.
Re:Adult-Use Cannabis Delivers $15B in Tax Revenues by saiya-jin on Tuesday May 02, 2023 @11:23AM (#35788957)
As stupid as the law is, have you actually heard about a single case this was done? I mean 10% of the population here consumes it regularly, any park, concert, heck even bigger street will have typical smell more often than not. It was legal here 2 decades ago for brief period of time.

Thats to say - police are generally fine with it. At least in big cities, expect some some random redneck chest thumping far out in the woods/alps.

And if you cause problems, expect no end of stuff cops can pull out on ya, just like anywhere else.

Re:Adult-Use Cannabis Delivers $15B in Tax Revenues by RHSeeger on Tuesday May 02, 2023 @11:38AM (#35789254)
> And if you cause problems, expect no end of stuff cops can pull out on ya, just like anywhere else.

Laws that are overbroad and allow abuse any time the police are mad at you are bad anywhere.

Re:Adult-Use Cannabis Delivers $15B in Tax Revenues by monksy on Tuesday May 02, 2023 @10:34PM (#35797052)
South Korea sometimes pulls this too.

Also other parts of SE Asia will demand an on the spot piss test.

Re:Adult-Use Cannabis Delivers $15B in Tax Revenues by s_dev on Tuesday May 02, 2023 @11:14AM (#35788799)
Probably worth pointing out that the UK is a world leader in growing and exporting finished cannabis products like medicine as well.

https://www.bbc.com/news/health-44197038

Re:Adult-Use Cannabis Delivers $15B in Tax Revenues by simonswords82 on Tuesday May 02, 2023 @11:15AM (#35788813)
I had heard that, I think some of our lovely politicians have got their fingers in these insanely profitable pies.
Re:Adult-Use Cannabis Delivers $15B in Tax Revenues by Aromasin on Tuesday May 02, 2023 @12:54PM (#35790553)
A host of Tory friend/family/donor's own licenses to produce cannabis, and any legalization of the product would result in their licenses becoming much less valuable.

Previous PM Theresa May’s husband Philip’s Capital Group is the largest investor in GW Pharmaceuticals, which mass produces it here for a foreign market. Previous GW chairman Geoffrey Guy is a major Tory donor. Our previous drug minister Victoria Atkins is married to Paul Kenward for fucks sake; boss of British Sugar, another medical cannabis supplier (now part of Associated British Foods). Funny enough, current CEO George Weston of ABF, member of one of Britain’s richest families, was found guilty of breaching charity law over donations of almost £1 million to the Conservative Party. I could keep going but it always makes me a little ill when I go too deep down these rabbit holes.

A government of ministers who insist the drug has “no medical value”, but still allows their chums to produce it under a special license. Doesn't sound suspicious at all, right?

Re:Adult-Use Cannabis Delivers $15B in Tax Revenues by anigbrowl on Tuesday May 02, 2023 @01:01PM (#35790695)
And why wouldn't they, it's not like there are any real consequences for political malfeasance in the UK.
Re:Adult-Use Cannabis Delivers $15B in Tax Revenues by whimsicalism on Tuesday May 02, 2023 @11:18AM (#35788864)
> ‘spice’ - whatever the hell that is

'spice' is a synthesized drug meant to be an analogue for weed. i don't think it is though, a lot of people have had ODs or very erratic behavior on spice.

Re:Adult-Use Cannabis Delivers $15B in Tax Revenues by saiya-jin on Tuesday May 02, 2023 @11:26AM (#35789032)
Its also much, much more addictive. As the set of banned substances grows, their analogues change and spice may be a different substance than it was 5 years ago.

Drug policies are a perfect example of good intentions paving road to hell and then some more, if you look at ie Mexico. Not that Nixon had any good intentions there whatsoever, but he certainly sold it to the public as such.

Re:Adult-Use Cannabis Delivers $15B in Tax Revenues by whimsicalism on Tuesday May 02, 2023 @11:34AM (#35789161)
Someone I tutored in math in highschool went out and murdered someone on the subway while on spice.

So yeah, bad drug (probably also bad person)

Re:Adult-Use Cannabis Delivers $15B in Tax Revenues by droopyEyelids on Tuesday May 02, 2023 @11:54AM (#35789510)
People in this thread are missing the fact that “spice” isnt a single drug but the slang for anything sprayed on herbs and sold as a weed replacement.
Re:Adult-Use Cannabis Delivers $15B in Tax Revenues by eimrine on Tuesday May 02, 2023 @11:09AM (#35788681)
> fuck UK drug policy

And UK policy on (potentially) crypted data.