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Re:New York to Ban Natural Gas, Including Stoves, in New Bui... by hedora on Saturday April 29, 2023 @02:20PM (#35755588)
Most people around here buy enough battery or generators to keep the power on. PG&E is way below one nine of availability this year, but the outlets inside our house are at 6 nines followed by an eight.

Granted, once the propane rationing started, a few of our neighbors lost power for extended periods of time (weeks). The phone company doesn’t maintain internet if the power is out, but there is starlink, and fiber co-ops are starting to spring up.

This is the SF Bay Area, so it’s pretty much a third world country if you measure things by quality of government services. I assume this isn’t typical for most other parts of the country.

Re:New York to Ban Natural Gas, Including Stoves, in New Bui... by WalterBright on Saturday April 29, 2023 @02:26PM (#35755643)
> a third world country if you measure things by quality of government services

And yet Californians pay enormous taxes.

Re:New York to Ban Natural Gas, Including Stoves, in New Bui... by peter422 on Saturday April 29, 2023 @02:35PM (#35755736)
Californians actually pay lower overall taxes compared to other states due to low property taxes.

Also, my power in San Francisco has probably been out for no more than 6 hours over the last 10 years. I don't know how many 9s that is, but it's more than 1.

Re:New York to Ban Natural Gas, Including Stoves, in New Bui... by giantg2 on Saturday April 29, 2023 @02:40PM (#35755783)
Re:New York to Ban Natural Gas, Including Stoves, in New Bui... by anonymouskimmer on Saturday April 29, 2023 @03:19PM (#35756162)
Mileage varies a lot in California. A high-income single person who just bought a place is paying a lot more than an older couple who have lived in the same home for 4 decades.

To critique your link based on its footnotes:

> 1 Calculated based on “State Individual Income Tax Rates and Brackets for 2020” from the Tax Foundation and “Median Household Income by State: 2018 and 2019” according to the U.S. Census Bureau.

What is the distribution of households in each state by marital and dependent status?

> 2 Calculated based on “Property Taxes by State” from WalletHub and “Median Home Values Across the U.S.” from Experian.

Various propositions in California affect actual property taxes. In the chart in your link the property tax tax burden is shown the same for California and Texas based on Median income, but the actual property tax rate in Texas is almost double that in California (at least last I checked, a couple of years ago). Housing in California has just been more expensive compared to income, which is a con in affordabilty, but a pro in net worth for property owners (especially those who have owned for a long time, and thus pay lower taxes on their primary residence).

I've got nothing to say about the sales tax burden, except to wonder how much of the "per capita personal consumption expenditures" are taxable transactions, and how much aren't. I've got no clue here though.

Re:New York to Ban Natural Gas, Including Stoves, in New Bui... by WalterBright on Saturday April 29, 2023 @02:41PM (#35755791)
Re:New York to Ban Natural Gas, Including Stoves, in New Bui... by anonymouskimmer on Saturday April 29, 2023 @04:28PM (#35756838)
> And yet Californians pay enormous taxes.

Part of this is because California is the most populous state with a high average personal income.

When talking about actual tax burden averages the best way to calculate is by dividing the total state and local taxes by the total income in the state.

https://www.taxpolicycenter.org/statistics/state-and-local-t...

In 2020 the total tax rate in California was 10.01% of total personal income. This put it at 37th place among the US states, and 0.52% above the US average.

For the other most populous states, Texas was at 8.56%, Florida at 7.21%, and New York at 13.92%.

The cheapest state was Alaska at 7.13% (with Florida the second cheapest), and the most expensive state was New York (with Hawaii the second most expensive at 13.16%).

Some of this data is confounded by state revenues not being solely from taxes (or especially from personal taxes). Regardless though, California isn't that much above average, and is one of 30 states with a graduate state income tax that hits higher earners harder than lower earners, whereas 11 states have a flat tax structure.

Re:New York to Ban Natural Gas, Including Stoves, in New Bui... by seanmcdirmid on Saturday April 29, 2023 @04:55PM (#35757103)
Your tax burden in California is also less if you are poorer. For example, you’ll pay more income tax in Alabama than California if you just make $40k/year, since AL taxes are more regressive in general.
Re:New York to Ban Natural Gas, Including Stoves, in New Bui... by armatav on Saturday April 29, 2023 @05:27PM (#35757364)
That’s what causes the problems.
Re:New York to Ban Natural Gas, Including Stoves, in New Bui... by andbberger on Saturday April 29, 2023 @02:24PM (#35755627)
> This is the SF Bay Area, so it’s pretty much a third world country if you measure things by quality of government services

delusional

Re:New York to Ban Natural Gas, Including Stoves, in New Bui... by zmgsabst on Saturday April 29, 2023 @02:28PM (#35755661)
That’s true:

Most third world countries don’t allow organized crime and persistent retail theft the way SF does. Theirs governments take harsh measures to crack down on such lawlessness.

Re:New York to Ban Natural Gas, Including Stoves, in New Bui... by dragonwriter on Saturday April 29, 2023 @02:31PM (#35755691)
> Most third world countries don’t allow organized crime

Depending on whether you mean de jure or de facto when you say “allow”, this is either not a difference or not true.

Re:New York to Ban Natural Gas, Including Stoves, in New Bui... by zmgsabst on Saturday April 29, 2023 @02:50PM (#35755861)
> organized crime and persistent retail theft the way SF does

Those were in a single grouping.

I’m currently in SE Asia: factually, they don’t allow organized retail theft akin to what I’ve seen in Seattle or SF.

Their downtowns also aren’t littered with drug zombies.

Re:New York to Ban Natural Gas, Including Stoves, in New Bui... by nickstinemates on Saturday April 29, 2023 @03:43PM (#35756400)
I love SE Asia, spend a lot of time there. Your characterization is incredibly misleading.

There's different tradeoffs between, say, Bangkok and San Francisco in terms of what is tolerated (i.e, drugs) and what isn't.

Re:New York to Ban Natural Gas, Including Stoves, in New Bui... by zmgsabst on Saturday April 29, 2023 @07:48PM (#35758416)
Yes — my point was the narrow one:

That it’s very strange that SF (and Seattle) are so much wealthier and developed, but I routinely see organized retail crime in those cities — but not in much poorer countries, who maintain a stricter social order.

Re:New York to Ban Natural Gas, Including Stoves, in New Bui... by janalsncm on Saturday April 29, 2023 @03:00PM (#35755956)
To add some nuance, third world countries can be very different. Crime isn’t just a matter of “3rd world” or not (I don’t even think that’s a meaningful term). Guatemala City felt extremely dangerous even during the day. In contrast, Fez felt very safe from crime. In contrast, Singapore might be considered “3rd world” by some definitions but it is by far the safest place I’ve lived.
Re:New York to Ban Natural Gas, Including Stoves, in New Bui... by whitemary on Saturday April 29, 2023 @02:45PM (#35755828)
Not delusional at all. I appreciate that this acknowledges it doesn't have to be this way. Governments don't have to be dominated by the private market's profit motive.
Re:New York to Ban Natural Gas, Including Stoves, in New Bui... by WheatMillington on Saturday April 29, 2023 @03:20PM (#35756174)
Where I live in New Zealand, I haven't experienced a power cut in years, and in my entire life I've only ever experienced a handful of short power cuts. So when I hear about the California experience, it feels pretty third world to me.
Re:New York to Ban Natural Gas, Including Stoves, in New Bui... by andbberger on Saturday April 29, 2023 @03:54PM (#35756525)
blackouts are once yearly occurrences, almost always caused by natural disasters. roads are high quality and abundant. we have some of highest quality tap water in the world, which meets drinking standards even before being treated. three airports. seven major bridges. way too many highways. three world class universities. and despite what you might hear, san francisco remains one of the safest cities in the country.

as it turns out, cloistered and fear-mongering tech bros don't really have an accurate bearing on reality. as a relatively normal person I am happy to report that despite being a suburban car-dependent hellhole, the bay area is very much a "first world" metro.

Re:New York to Ban Natural Gas, Including Stoves, in New Bui... by catiopatio on Saturday April 29, 2023 @05:35PM (#35757446)
> as a relatively normal person

Speaking of delusional …

Re:New York to Ban Natural Gas, Including Stoves, in New Bui... by 8note on Saturday April 29, 2023 @05:01PM (#35757141)
You hear about a whole state's worth of local power outages. If you instead compare to when anyone in new Zealand has a power outage, you'll be closer in comparison
Re:New York to Ban Natural Gas, Including Stoves, in New Bui... by sokoloff on Saturday April 29, 2023 @02:43PM (#35755808)
> PG&E is way below one nine of availability this year

You’ve been without utility power for two full weeks in 2023?!

Re:New York to Ban Natural Gas, Including Stoves, in New Bui... by OkGoDoIt on Saturday April 29, 2023 @03:15PM (#35756134)
Yes. There’s been a lot of storms this spring and the wind has brought down power cables left and right. That’s in addition to whatever other crap is up that’s causing power and even occasionally gas to be shut off for days at a time. Depending on where you live in the bay area, you might’ve had a few hour long shut offs, a few day long shut off’s, or worse and that’s just this year. I personally have had almost 3 total days without power where I live in the inner sunset of San Francisco, including 6 incidents of between 1 and 5 hours, and 1 period of two whole days. I have friends elsewhere in the city who’ve had it a lot worse. I don’t personally know anyone who has had 14 days total outages, but I would absolutely believe it given what I have seen. Also my personal PG&E bill for my home of two people and a baby is over $500 a month between electric and gas. I also run a small-midsize 400 seat theater in SF Chinatown and the monthly power and gas bill for that is almost $3000 a month even though we only run events two or three days a week. It’s absolutely ridiculous.
Re:New York to Ban Natural Gas, Including Stoves, in New Bui... by throwaway892238 on Saturday April 29, 2023 @03:58PM (#35756565)
Everybody should listen to The Dollop's episodes on PG&E. It's pretty nuts. https://www.reddit.com/r/TheDollop/comments/11e1c8u/the_doll... https://www.reddit.com/r/TheDollop/comments/11kmmsk/the_doll...

Amazingly this is not the worst US utility company. They are all pretty horrible.

Re:New York to Ban Natural Gas, Including Stoves, in New Bui... by DangitBobby on Saturday April 29, 2023 @04:47PM (#35757007)
Wow now I feel really grateful to have maybe one or two outages (that last maybe an hour) per year!
Re:New York to Ban Natural Gas, Including Stoves, in New Bui... by nucleardog on Saturday April 29, 2023 @03:08PM (#35756068)
Can’t speak to California, but where I am in Canada (national capital region) I’ve been without power for over 14 days total in the past 12 months and we don’t have half the problems they do.

There was an eight day outage, a four day outage, and a couple ~24 hour outages.

Surprisingly very few short outages or brownouts or anything.

I’m sitting at having utility power ~95% of the time over the past 12 months. I’d have no problem believing two weeks… or more.

Re:New York to Ban Natural Gas, Including Stoves, in New Bui... by nemo44x on Saturday April 29, 2023 @07:24PM (#35758279)
It’s becoming more and more common, especially in places with older homes which the East Coast is full of. There are many, many millions of home with 100A or even 50A service. That was standard until the 80’s and 90’s. The grid was built to support that.

But now a lot more people run AC and electric car charging, among other things like induction ranges. The infrastructure is struggling to keep up. A lot of it is super old and it’s not uncommon to come across 50 year old transformers, etc.

Brownouts and blackouts have become rather common.

But the gas always works. Where I live a lot of people have installed natural gas generators.

Re:New York to Ban Natural Gas, Including Stoves, in New Bui... by mcculley on Saturday April 29, 2023 @02:56PM (#35755910)
> Most people around here buy enough battery or generators to keep the power on.

This is a surprising assertion to me. How can “most people” afford batteries and generators?

Re:New York to Ban Natural Gas, Including Stoves, in New Bui... by hedora on Saturday April 29, 2023 @03:08PM (#35756067)
$50-60K is enough to buy a backup system, and not much compared to the price of a house in this area.
Re:New York to Ban Natural Gas, Including Stoves, in New Bui... by toxik on Saturday April 29, 2023 @03:14PM (#35756119)
$50-60K is more money than most people I know make per year.
Re:New York to Ban Natural Gas, Including Stoves, in New Bui... by anonymouskimmer on Saturday April 29, 2023 @03:22PM (#35756197)
Which is why "around here" is 65% renters, when "here" is San Francisco: https://thefrisc.com/sf-is-65-rental-households-but-knows-al...
Re:New York to Ban Natural Gas, Including Stoves, in New Bui... by toxik on Saturday April 29, 2023 @03:52PM (#35756517)
You mean almost half SF owns and it's incredibly expensive?
Re:New York to Ban Natural Gas, Including Stoves, in New Bui... by anonymouskimmer on Saturday April 29, 2023 @03:56PM (#35756547)
If I read the criticisms correctly another 34% is homeless. But that 1% who owns can afford battery backups! :P
Re:New York to Ban Natural Gas, Including Stoves, in New Bui... by hedora on Saturday April 29, 2023 @04:08PM (#35756657)
Circling back, I did say government services are reminiscent of the third world.
Re:New York to Ban Natural Gas, Including Stoves, in New Bui... by brianwawok on Saturday April 29, 2023 @03:24PM (#35756212)
My whole house natural gas generator was closer to 10k and 5-10k install. Provides like 90 amps. Good for all the storms around here. I just turn off my hot tub and EV charging and I can do anything else including AC.
Re:New York to Ban Natural Gas, Including Stoves, in New Bui... by hedora on Saturday April 29, 2023 @04:11PM (#35756680)
That works if you have natural gas service. My estimate assumes solar panels, batteries and a generator that tops the battery off in emergencies.

This year, most people with just batteries lost power due to no sun, and people with just generators lost power due to no propane delivery service/supply.

Re:New York to Ban Natural Gas, Including Stoves, in New Bui... by toast0 on Saturday April 29, 2023 @04:41PM (#35756955)
Most natural gas generators are orderable for propane. Propane delivery is available most places, although you also need to find a place for the tank. It's more convenient to have fuel delivered via pipeline, but somewhat less resilient (although I personally don't have any experience with outages of utility natural gas, it is a possibility).

Based on the one ~ 3 day outage I had, my whole house generator's tank is good for probably close to two weeks, although if it were very hot or very cold, that might change. I have a portable generator for my well, that one runs on gasoline and doesn't sip fuel, I'd probably just run it for a few minutes twice a day (did not have that generator during the 3 day outage... we were just stinky)

Re:New York to Ban Natural Gas, Including Stoves, in New Bui... by 8note on Saturday April 29, 2023 @04:58PM (#35757120)
Pipelines everywhere is also bad for leaking methane from a billion tubes
Re:New York to Ban Natural Gas, Including Stoves, in New Bui... by Waterluvian on Saturday April 29, 2023 @02:59PM (#35755945)
Depends on what “here” means. If it means California I’m going to guess 99% of homes don’t have battery backups.
Re:New York to Ban Natural Gas, Including Stoves, in New Bui... by danans on Saturday April 29, 2023 @03:15PM (#35756129)
> This is the SF Bay Area, so it’s pretty much a third world country if you measure things by quality of government services. I assume this isn’t typical for most other parts of the country

You would assume wrong. California's grid reliability statistics are actually better than the national average:

Electric Utility Performance: A State-By-State Data Review https://www.citizensutilityboard.org/wp-content/uploads/2021...

The only statistic where it falls last is "AVERAGE AMOUNT OF TIME TO RESTORE POWER PER CUSTOMER, IN MINUTES (CAIDI) WITH MAJOR EVENT DAYS"

Compare the California's power reliability with West Virginia's before making any assumptions.

Re:New York to Ban Natural Gas, Including Stoves, in New Bui... by armatav on Saturday April 29, 2023 @05:26PM (#35757360)
Pretty big miss on that particular statistic don’t you think?

It’s like if your a top basketball player but you come last in movement speed.

Re:New York to Ban Natural Gas, Including Stoves, in New Bui... by danans on Saturday April 29, 2023 @08:32PM (#35758653)
It is absolutely a big miss, but it's in the context of long tail events (in the magnitude of the event severity), which California by its very nature experiences more than most other large population states: relentless storms, heat waves, wildfires.

Should California utilities be better at restoring power in these situations? Absolutely, and we shouldn't cut them much slack in that regard. But that doesn't mean it's a "3rd world country" situation with respect to power reliability like the GP described. The typical power problems faced in developing countries are daily power reliability problems that are due to poor grid management in normal conditions, not exceptional conditions.

Re:New York to Ban Natural Gas, Including Stoves, in New Bui... by armatav on Saturday April 29, 2023 @09:22PM (#35758880)
I’m from a third world country, and now live in the Bay.

To give you context our place in SA was having a couple hours loadshedding a day, and here in one of the wealthiest neighborhoods our power was gone for three fucking weeks, and just yesterday was in and out three times.

It’s absolutely third world country level when the weather is anything but exactly 70 degrees. You have zero idea what you’re talking about, the original guy is correct.

Re:New York to Ban Natural Gas, Including Stoves, in New Bui... by danans on Sunday April 30, 2023 @12:04AM (#35759602)
> I’m from a third world country, and now live in the Bay

Same here. I've sat in the sweltering tropical heat with nary a fan for relief, so I well understand what I'm talking about.

> To give you context our place in SA was having a couple hours loadshedding a day, and here in one of the wealthiest neighborhoods our power was gone for three fucking weeks, and just yesterday was in and out three times.

In my Bay Area neighborhood there have been no outages for the last 3 years, but my individual anecdote is no more or less valid than yours when generalizing about California at large. It's a huge state with incredible variability in nearly every dimension.

Local conditions matter greatly. I'm in a dense urban environment, near hospitals and fire stations. That's probably why our power is more reliable. We have friends who live in wealthy wooded and hilly area of the Peninsula who have lost power for days this past winter, because those crazy storms made so many trees fall on power lines.

Your power problems sound highly localized, and you are right to be upset about it, but it's on your utility, not the overall grid.

Re:New York to Ban Natural Gas, Including Stoves, in New Bui... by armatav on Sunday April 30, 2023 @12:32PM (#35764151)
You understand that Palo Alto et co are on different power grids to Atherton/LAH/MV etc right?

Highly localized across the entire bay for the atmospheric river a couple weeks ago.

Again, you don’t know what you’re talking about.

Re:New York to Ban Natural Gas, Including Stoves, in New Bui... by danans on Sunday April 30, 2023 @01:43PM (#35764815)
> You understand that Palo Alto et co are on different power grids to Atherton/LAH/MV etc right?

They are not on a different grid at all. Most of California, and definitely the entire Bay Area is part of the same grid managed by CAISO:

https://www.caiso.com/Pages/default.aspx

Palo Alto has its own municipal utility. There is a huge difference. A municipal utility is only responsible for retail electric sales and distribution infrastructure in a specific area. That includes local substations and power lines, which are the likely source of your electricity reliability problems.

Palo Alto doesn't manage supply and demand in real time, maintaining 60Hz AC, or run the wholesale electricity markets. CAISO does those, along with transmission and regional interconnects, all of which are functions of the electric grid. The meanings of words matter when discussing these things.

> Again, you don’t know what you’re talking about.

Thank you for the pleasant feedback.

Re:New York to Ban Natural Gas, Including Stoves, in New Bui... by armatav on Monday May 01, 2023 @08:14PM (#35781277)
So when we refer to the weather induced disconnections, these are issues with things like trees on the lines and problems with our substations. These are principally managed by the utility, which you know is what I was referencing by “grid”.

What more would you like explained here?

Live with PG&E and live with PAU and then talk about it. Semantics are totally irrelevant.

Re:New York to Ban Natural Gas, Including Stoves, in New Bui... by hx833001 on Saturday April 29, 2023 @03:17PM (#35756143)
In the Boston area, I almost never lose power, at all, ever. One hour five years ago in an ice storm was an aberration. Something is very wrong in Cali.
Re:New York to Ban Natural Gas, Including Stoves, in New Bui... by blisterpeanuts on Saturday April 29, 2023 @03:58PM (#35756574)
We’re in the Boston area (west suburban town) and there are outages about every 4-5 months (Eversource). It’s quite annoying and I’m contemplating getting a whole house generator. My solar panels do nothing during an outage. Would love to get a couple of Tesla Powerwalls but too expensive and long waiting list.
Re:New York to Ban Natural Gas, Including Stoves, in New Bui... by azinman2 on Saturday April 29, 2023 @04:12PM (#35756691)
California is a far bigger state in both population and area. Much of that area is also uninhabited, but power lines cross it. Many are quite old and not well maintained, and either start fires or are subject to other climate issues (fires, snow, high winds, etc). It’s a more challenging environment, plus PG&E is basically incompetent.