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Re:The Glorious Return of a Humble Car Feature by TheFragenTaken on Thursday April 27, 2023 @04:40AM (#35725033)
The fact that these cars pass safety certification, makes me question certifiers. It's illegal to look at your phone while driving, for good reason, but it's legal to fiddle with a damn computer screen, because it's part of the car.

I predict it's a matter of time before we'll see a correlation between number of crashes, and cars with touchscreens.

Re:The Glorious Return of a Humble Car Feature by geraldwhen on Thursday April 27, 2023 @04:57AM (#35725192)
In many states you can absolutely use your phone while driving, either to call someone or actively use gps without a window mount.

What’s explicitly prohibited is texting/writing and driving.

Re:The Glorious Return of a Humble Car Feature by justeleblanc on Thursday April 27, 2023 @08:11AM (#35726859)
The US is not a beacon of consumer safety. In my European country, having your phone in your hand while driving is illegal.
Re:The Glorious Return of a Humble Car Feature by nosequel on Thursday April 27, 2023 @09:03AM (#35727436)
I live in a state where phone use is legal and I am so jealous of you right now. I see near misses on the road every-single-day.
Re:The Glorious Return of a Humble Car Feature by martyvis on Thursday April 27, 2023 @10:36AM (#35728804)
Same here in Australia. I actually think we have developed the technology (and the matching legislation) that allows pole mounted cameras to detect this while driving at 110kmh down the expressway. I know many people that have been "busted" and even though I use a handsfree holder, just placing (when you forgot to do so before you drive off) is just as illegal here.

I did laugh when of course sometimes they would pickup someone holding a chocolate bar while driving. While not necessarily the best thing to do with the one hand, not illegal all the same.

Re:The Glorious Return of a Humble Car Feature by kube-system on Thursday April 27, 2023 @11:47AM (#35729848)
There are US states that have the same law.

The way that the separations of powers work in the US, basically all driving laws are set by the states. The rules for driving can and do change when you cross state lines in the US, sometimes significantly. It really doesn't make any sense to talk about specific driving laws in the US as a monolith.

Re:The Glorious Return of a Humble Car Feature by bluGill on Thursday April 27, 2023 @08:35AM (#35727091)
In all states where it is allowed you can be sure there is at least one lobby group (probably bicycles) working to make it illegal.
Re:The Glorious Return of a Humble Car Feature by nativeit on Thursday April 27, 2023 @09:26AM (#35727750)
I wish them all the best here in NC, but the auto dealer’s association is easily one of the most influential lobbying groups in the state, which is why Tesla can’t even sell their own cars here.
Re:The Glorious Return of a Humble Car Feature by zamnos on Thursday April 27, 2023 @05:12AM (#35725312)
Do auto insurance rates on touch screen cars show this to be the case? Cars with touch screens have been around long enough that they should have data, and consequently be charging more for insurance on those cars if they are is that is indeed the case.
Re:The Glorious Return of a Humble Car Feature by satellite2 on Thursday April 27, 2023 @05:29AM (#35725479)
They are. But car with touchscreen are more powerful which is always linked to higher fees. So hard to say which feature causes what.
Re:The Glorious Return of a Humble Car Feature by jml78 on Thursday April 27, 2023 @06:43AM (#35726076)
I owned a new honda civic before I bought a Tesla model 3.

It is only one data point but my insurance went down when I got the Tesla.

Re:The Glorious Return of a Humble Car Feature by xmcqdpt2 on Thursday April 27, 2023 @07:09AM (#35726277)
Auto insurance models like many other insurance models are often not that smart. The insurance company will charge more of there is more claims payout, but they also want to attract certain client segments and compete with competitors.

Also, claim rates have all kind of confounding factors. Maybe a car is safer but more prone to theft, or more dangerous but easier to repair, or has better controls but is driven by inexperienced drivers etc.

They need to make a profit over their whole insured client population, not necessarily over any given segment or car model, so I wouldn't use insurance rates as data points in determining car safety without a lot of caveats.

Re:The Glorious Return of a Humble Car Feature by LorenPechtel on Thursday April 27, 2023 @01:16PM (#35731391)
Yup, what sort of driver a given car model attracts is a substantial factor in the rates. Just try to insure a sports car to see this!
Re:The Glorious Return of a Humble Car Feature by Archelaos on Thursday April 27, 2023 @05:39AM (#35725559)
* * *
Re:The Glorious Return of a Humble Car Feature by dontlaugh on Thursday April 27, 2023 @06:10AM (#35725826)
Which would have never happened if the car had normal physical controls for that function. Mine has a little rocker on the wiper stalk.
Re:The Glorious Return of a Humble Car Feature by epistasis on Thursday April 27, 2023 @09:40AM (#35727968)
If you know ahead of time how to do it. If you are in a new car, discovering which of 12 different switches, knobs, and dials adjusts the wiper speed is somewhat baffling. I always spend 5 minutes in a new rental car trying to memorize how to do this, but if it's been a couple days since I rented the car and I'm trying to do it for the first time, it is not something that I try to attempt to adjust while still on the road.
Re:The Glorious Return of a Humble Car Feature by dontlaugh on Thursday April 27, 2023 @10:56AM (#35729096)
Sure. But for physical controls it's generally easy to discover as well. Indeed it only takes a few minutes in an unfamiliar car, after which it's easy to use the controls with at most a passing glance.
Re:The Glorious Return of a Humble Car Feature by ClumsyPilot on Thursday April 27, 2023 @06:51AM (#35726133)
The judgement should have been against tesla, not the customer. Wipers are essential and should not require fiddling
Re:The Glorious Return of a Humble Car Feature by phpisthebest on Thursday April 27, 2023 @07:09AM (#35726276)
Sounds like the driver was attempting to adjust non-critical features of wipers not turning them off and on

We should be very careful not to include the kitchen sink in with "essential" items.

Turning the wipers off and on, is critical, adjusting delay timings is not

Re:The Glorious Return of a Humble Car Feature by randallsquared on Thursday April 27, 2023 @07:41AM (#35726581)
Shortening a delay timing has the same effect as turning the wiper on in some rain conditions.
Re:The Glorious Return of a Humble Car Feature by naravara on Thursday April 27, 2023 @09:16AM (#35727608)
I can't help but feel like we've made a mistake by concentrating so many of the people who design our standard software UX patterns in California. From Tesla designing car interfaces that don't understand how wipers need to work to Apple designing weather apps that don't clearly communicate wind chill to smartphones that require use of the touchscreen to answer a phone call rendering it impossible to answer while wearing gloves. It's like they only understand the concept of weather from TV shows set in New York.
Re:The Glorious Return of a Humble Car Feature by martyvis on Thursday April 27, 2023 @10:18AM (#35728456)
This is comedy gold!
Re:The Glorious Return of a Humble Car Feature by firstlink on Thursday April 27, 2023 @12:37PM (#35730708)
Careful, this is only one step removed from fascistly suggesting that regulations which work in downtown SF don't work in rural areas.
Re:The Glorious Return of a Humble Car Feature by htrp on Thursday April 27, 2023 @01:12PM (#35731304)
Self driving cars don't work in snow.....
Re:The Glorious Return of a Humble Car Feature by kurisufag on Thursday April 27, 2023 @07:31AM (#35726471)
my 2003 Honda Accord allows you to change wiper interval the same way you enable/disable it -- moving the right-hand stick a notch.

setting it to a high speed will fuck up the wipers when there is little rain, a /low/ speed will be useless when there is appreciable rain, and when driving you often move from one to another.

Re:The Glorious Return of a Humble Car Feature by Aeolun on Thursday April 27, 2023 @07:12AM (#35726302)
Depends on how hard the rain is pouring down.
Re:The Glorious Return of a Humble Car Feature by nicky0 on Thursday April 27, 2023 @07:44AM (#35726610)
If you're in a rainstorm and the wipers are set to "minimum speed" then turning the speed up would be critical.
Re:The Glorious Return of a Humble Car Feature by londons_explore on Thursday April 27, 2023 @07:55AM (#35726692)
The safe thing to do would be to pull over first, as you see the rain getting heavier, then adjust.
Re:The Glorious Return of a Humble Car Feature by smaudet on Thursday April 27, 2023 @08:23AM (#35726976)
I can immediately think of several situations where that is not at all possible to do.

Construction, cliff roads, country roads, etc.

Tesla are unsafe death traps by design.

Re:The Glorious Return of a Humble Car Feature by concordDance on Thursday April 27, 2023 @09:23AM (#35727712)
> Tesla are unsafe death traps by design.

This is completely untrue by third party metrics (both governmental and not).

Re:The Glorious Return of a Humble Car Feature by BanazirGalbasi on Thursday April 27, 2023 @10:52AM (#35729027)
They meet crash standards, yes. But the interior design of them encourages unsafe driving. Between putting almost everything inside a touch screen and pushing autopilot (which encourages drivers to pay attention less), they are creating more distractions from controlling their 2-ton metal boxes.

Drivers are licensed operators of heavy machinery that travels at high speed. Let's not encourage systems that turn us into more dangerous operators.

Re:The Glorious Return of a Humble Car Feature by concordDance on Thursday April 27, 2023 @01:01PM (#35731146)
If they were "death traps" the stats would have them as the most dangerous cars on the road rather than one of the safest (in terms of deaths per mile). The grandparent was speaking absolute nonsense.
Re:The Glorious Return of a Humble Car Feature by ClumsyPilot on Thursday April 27, 2023 @01:53PM (#35732014)
A tank would be safes car, statistically - its just deadly to wveryone else.
Re:The Glorious Return of a Humble Car Feature by electrondood on Thursday April 27, 2023 @11:44AM (#35729793)
What you've just said is a description of the exact opposite of reality.

Teslas are the safest cars on the road, and not even by a little bit.

Re:The Glorious Return of a Humble Car Feature by nsxwolf on Thursday April 27, 2023 @12:56PM (#35731051)
Pulling over to adjust the wiper speed? Come on now.
Re:The Glorious Return of a Humble Car Feature by electrondood on Sunday May 07, 2023 @01:07PM (#35853430)
Or use the "Turn on windshield wipers/increase wiper speed" voice command.

https://www.tesla.com/en_eu/support/voice-commands

If that's your safety criticism, that's more evidence for my point. Teslas are statistically safer than any other car by any measure.

Re:The Glorious Return of a Humble Car Feature by Chris2048 on Thursday April 27, 2023 @08:26AM (#35727000)
So, what to do on a motorway?
Re:The Glorious Return of a Humble Car Feature by nsxwolf on Thursday April 27, 2023 @08:59AM (#35727359)
I get the impression you’ve never driven in the rain.
Re:The Glorious Return of a Humble Car Feature by Gordonjcp on Thursday April 27, 2023 @09:05AM (#35727471)
Why wouldn't the safe thing be to reach out from the steering wheel with one of the fingers of your right hand, and move the little slider thing on the wiper switch to increase the wipe speed?

You know, like on my appallingly primitive 1998 Range Rover, or pretty much anything from the same era?

Re:The Glorious Return of a Humble Car Feature by scarface74 on Thursday April 27, 2023 @09:38AM (#35727926)
Yes because pulling over on a multi lane highway in the rain when you have poor visibility and then trying to merge into traffic is much safer.

Besides, what if you are on the road with no shoulders.

Re:The Glorious Return of a Humble Car Feature by brokenmachine on Friday April 28, 2023 @12:43AM (#35737544)
Shut up Elon. Your cars suck.
Re:The Glorious Return of a Humble Car Feature by Gordonjcp on Thursday April 27, 2023 @09:04AM (#35727450)
> Turning the wipers off and on, is critical, adjusting delay timings is not

You've never driven in rain, have you?

Re:The Glorious Return of a Humble Car Feature by Rediscover on Thursday April 27, 2023 @09:58AM (#35728193)
Fun story:

My ex (one of my best friends), born and raised in Seattle, used to give me serious grief anytime I mention rain in Boston or NYC. She had no belief in what I would describe.

Work finally ships her out to (NYC). She calls me up to say she just ran ~2meters from the hotel to the taxi and is soaking wet.

She has never commented on Seattle "rain" since.

REAL rain.

Re:The Glorious Return of a Humble Car Feature by GenerocUsername on Thursday April 27, 2023 @11:34AM (#35729662)
Seattelite here.

We get that rain too periodically.

Sesttelites complain about rain because we regularly experience 100+ days of rain.

Seattle rain is not not a storm, it's a marathon.

Re:The Glorious Return of a Humble Car Feature by madcaptenor on Thursday April 27, 2023 @02:42PM (#35732743)
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-03-17/this-simp...

There's a map here that shows that most of the eastern US gets more rain than Seattle, but Seattle is very high on the number of days of measurable precipitation.

Re:The Glorious Return of a Humble Car Feature by Gordonjcp on Thursday April 27, 2023 @03:47PM (#35733588)
I'm from north-west Scotland.

Many years ago we had a guy working for us who was sent over from our company's parent company in Southern Cali. He was not keen on going out in the rain at all, and was absolutely terrified that we still drove at 60mph when it was raining. "But what if you skid? It's raining!" he'd wail.

He'd never driven in rain. He just did not take well to a Scottish January, especially the bit where you get 140mph winds for a couple of weeks.

Re:The Glorious Return of a Humble Car Feature by scotteric on Thursday April 27, 2023 @08:08PM (#35736042)
When it rains after being dry for some time an oil layer forms on top of the water. This is why he is afraid of skidding. In Southern California, where it is very dry there can be very substantial oil buildup.
Re:The Glorious Return of a Humble Car Feature by Gordonjcp on Friday April 28, 2023 @01:58AM (#35737939)
You get that a little bit here, but not enough to make a real difference.

I guess we also have laws about keeping cars in good condition with decent tyres and stuff.

Re:The Glorious Return of a Humble Car Feature by martyvis on Thursday April 27, 2023 @10:16AM (#35728426)
Maybe your rain is different from the rain where I live. Being able to adjust speeds is critical so I get maximum vision with minimum distraction
Re:The Glorious Return of a Humble Car Feature by Spooky23 on Thursday April 27, 2023 @12:51PM (#35730956)
Huh? Every car from 1960-2010 managed to provide intermittent wiper controls that were straightforward to use.
Re:The Glorious Return of a Humble Car Feature by LorenPechtel on Thursday April 27, 2023 @01:12PM (#35731311)
It's a critical function--high speed in light rain will cause problems from the rubber moving across basically dry glass, low/intermittent speed in heavy rain won't clear your view properly.
Re:The Glorious Return of a Humble Car Feature by garbagewoman on Thursday April 27, 2023 @08:03AM (#35726777)
50:50 maybe? The customer, upon realising how shitty the car is, should have returned it as not fit for purpose
Re:The Glorious Return of a Humble Car Feature by MaxMatti on Thursday April 27, 2023 @10:01AM (#35728227)
And risk having to go to court over whether it really is unfit? That's not something they should decide, that's something that regulators should have stopped before the car was even put on the market in the first place.
Re:The Glorious Return of a Humble Car Feature by galangalalgol on Thursday April 27, 2023 @08:52AM (#35727265)
I didn't believe it could be that nad, but I looked up the video at Tesla and you really have to go to the touchscreen to speed up the wiper. That should absolutely be illegal. Does it have some autosense feature so that you usually don't have to ise it?
Re:The Glorious Return of a Humble Car Feature by zaroth on Thursday April 27, 2023 @08:58AM (#35727341)
It does have an auto mode.

But also, you can now adjust wiper speed / interval on the steering wheel in a Tesla without using the touchscreen.

Feature was actually added a just a few weeks ago in a software update.

Re:The Glorious Return of a Humble Car Feature by martyvis on Thursday April 27, 2023 @10:25AM (#35728597)
I'm sure it's the type of thing in an Elon meeting he would say "Surely we can think of a solution better than relying on drivers to provide meaningful input to the desired outcome?"
Re:The Glorious Return of a Humble Car Feature by zaroth on Thursday April 27, 2023 @02:43PM (#35732750)
Surely the ideal is the wiper is always moving at the perfectly desired speed and interval without any human intervention required.
Re:The Glorious Return of a Humble Car Feature by Lio on Friday April 28, 2023 @03:38AM (#35738578)
That's the UX designer's trap.

Yes, in theory it would be best to have the perfect speed without intervention but there isn't one perfect speed for the conditions.

The speed the driver wants changes from driver to driver and might depend not just on how much rain is coming down but on the amount of traffic on the road, proximity to pedestrians, eye sight and time of day and any number of other factors.

It's always going to be better to have an automatic system that can be tweaked by the driver because everyone is different. The more easily the driver can do that without thinking the better.

Re:The Glorious Return of a Humble Car Feature by vel0city on Thursday April 27, 2023 @06:02PM (#35735138)
Does changing the speed using the wheel require either knowing a menu layout or looking at a screen to know what the wheel control is actually controlling at the moment?
Re:The Glorious Return of a Humble Car Feature by mytailorisrich on Thursday April 27, 2023 @05:39AM (#35725562)
This obviously depends on the jurisdiction. Here in the UK:

There is a specific ban on using phones while driving.

There is an obligation to drive with "due care and attention" so taking your eyes and attention off the road to spend time fiddling with a computer screen can be an offence as well.

Re:The Glorious Return of a Humble Car Feature by rlpb on Thursday April 27, 2023 @07:48AM (#35726634)
In practice the bar for "due care and attention" is low (ie. you have had to be really, really careless or really, really inattentive to be convicted). The courts in the UK hold drivers only to a pretty low standard in general. That's why they had to pass a separate law to ban handheld use of mobile phones.
Re:The Glorious Return of a Humble Car Feature by mytailorisrich on Thursday April 27, 2023 @08:23AM (#35726971)
This can be a fixed penalty (no court involved unless driver does not accept penalty). So I think it really depends on what the driver was actually doing (especially impact on driving), how the driver responds to being stopped by police, and whether police is having a bad day.
Re:The Glorious Return of a Humble Car Feature by ThisIsNotNew on Thursday April 27, 2023 @11:19AM (#35729447)
An example of how oblivious drivers on phones are is this:

I parked (where I could not be seen by the van) to warn oncoming drivers of mobile speed van 50 metres ahead over brow of hill.

While nearly all made eye contact with me and speeders instantly slammed the brakes, two drivers on phones (both women with kids), despite me flashing my headlamps AND putting my hand out of my car and waving at them, they still did not look at me or put down the phone.

This was after the penalty was doubled to 6 points.

(And yes I know its not legal for me to warn drivers of speed traps like this)

Re:The Glorious Return of a Humble Car Feature by ConcernedCoder on Thursday April 27, 2023 @07:24AM (#35726403)
The fact that my touch screen will often display a distracting message that reminds me that it's unsafe to take my eyes off the road while driving and require someone to touch the "ok" button to dismiss it is the epitome of dangerous stupidity...
Re:The Glorious Return of a Humble Car Feature by jclardy on Thursday April 27, 2023 @08:42AM (#35727155)
Yes, it is the most useless thing ever. I think my truck displays it maybe once per day? It isn't every drive, which ends up making it worse because I look to tap on the radio and I have to first reach across the entire display to hit OK, then wait for it to load, then tap the radio...If it was every drive I could just be programmed to tap the button without looking at it, which of course defeats the purpose of it in the first place.
Re:The Glorious Return of a Humble Car Feature by brokenmachine on Friday April 28, 2023 @12:40AM (#35737532)
Don't complain or they'll make it a captcha.

"Please click all the images of bicycles to access volume controls".

Re:The Glorious Return of a Humble Car Feature by LorenPechtel on Thursday April 27, 2023 @01:10PM (#35731260)
At least my Corolla doesn't persist the screen--and it's instantly dismissed if I go into reverse and the backup camera activates. The driver assist stuff is fairly mild which is good because it's prone to errors. It routinely gets confused about what constitutes a lane, beeping about my not following something that isn't actually a lane. Usually something on the road but I've been scolded for not respecting the shadow of an electric wire. It also thinks I'm not holding the wheel when I'm in a very gentle high speed turn--there's a spot where the expressway gently curves that's very prone to triggering it.

The adaptive cruise is pretty good, it's been fooled once by two cars moving in front of me at the same time and it appears to have no understanding of cars with huge speed differences. (Bozos that enter the road at half the speed limit.) It also refuses to operate below 28 mph which I dislike because cruise control is good for using the engine to hold your speed down on hills--and there's a certain 25 mph mountain road I sometimes drive. Yeah, maybe the adaptive stuff can't work but at least give me basic control so I don't need to use my brakes!

Re:The Glorious Return of a Humble Car Feature by phkahler on Thursday April 27, 2023 @07:55AM (#35726689)
>> I predict it's a matter of time before we'll see a correlation between number of crashes, and cars with touchscreens.

Insurance companies should have this data already. They should start setting rates based on it.

Re:The Glorious Return of a Humble Car Feature by Rediscover on Thursday April 27, 2023 @09:45AM (#35728034)
Honda Prelude. Maybe 1985. Everything off for me. Radio controls, lift my hand off the shifter, vs my Toyota: extend a finger. Hated that Honda.
Re:The Glorious Return of a Humble Car Feature by nostrademons on Thursday April 27, 2023 @09:53PM (#35736691)