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Re:'Algebra for none' fails in San Francisco by sp332 on Sunday April 16, 2023 @09:11PM (#35595721)
I think the idea is that if it’s important to rich parents, they will grudgingly fund education for everyone. But as long as they have these outlets where they can just educate their own kids and leave everyone else behind, they will.
Re:'Algebra for none' fails in San Francisco by elzbardico on Sunday April 16, 2023 @09:36PM (#35595899)
The rich will always have those outlets, and nobody is going to take them away from them, because they have the power. Now, with the disappearing middle class, we just call them rich, and made them pay for it has been the default for a long time.
Re:'Algebra for none' fails in San Francisco by diordiderot on Monday April 17, 2023 @02:43AM (#35597478)
> The rich will always have those outlets

The Nordic countries have the best schools in the world.

Private schools are banned.

Well except for Sweden. They introduced vouchers in the 90s and as soon as they did, their rankings started rolling like dung down a hill.

Re:'Algebra for none' fails in San Francisco by alex_sf on Monday April 17, 2023 @03:23AM (#35597702)
This is often repeated when talking about education, and it is absolutely wrong. Denmark, Norway, Sweden and Finland all have private schools.
Re:'Algebra for none' fails in San Francisco by Erwin on Monday April 17, 2023 @03:10AM (#35597624)
Denmark has had a private school system for decades, and 15% of students go into the private schools (as a parent you pay a portion of the costs so it is not necessarily extremely expensive). "Private" mostly means that you still have to teach specific basics, but you can do it in your way like Montessori.

One advantage of the private schools is they can kick out students they cannot manage easily, while the public schools have to keep everyone. Some recent strutural changes in the public shools are said to have declined their quality, enough so that many government ministers, even of the left wing, are sending their children to the private schools.

I guess it's one of those Nordic myths -- like high minimum wage (there is none in Denmark).

Re:'Algebra for none' fails in San Francisco by redeeman on Monday April 17, 2023 @07:03AM (#35599110)
> Some recent strutural changes in the public shools are said to have declined their quality, enough so that many government ministers, even of the left wing, are sending their children to the private schools.

they did that before too :) couldnt possibly expect the politicians to send their kids to the same filthy schools as the plebs now could we? :)

Re:'Algebra for none' fails in San Francisco by CoastalCoder on Sunday April 16, 2023 @09:24PM (#35595806)
I'm not sure that's a fair generalization. I suspect many parents have the resources to improve their own kids' educations, but not the time/energy to try changing the school system politics / bureaucracy / laws / budgets in time for their kids.
Re:'Algebra for none' fails in San Francisco by bendbro on Sunday April 16, 2023 @09:29PM (#35595843)
Some students need to be left behind
Re:'Algebra for none' fails in San Francisco by kelseyfrog on Sunday April 16, 2023 @09:43PM (#35595958)
Which ones are those again?
Re:'Algebra for none' fails in San Francisco by bobsmooth on Sunday April 16, 2023 @10:03PM (#35596070)
The dumb ones so that smart kids can actually learn.
Re:'Algebra for none' fails in San Francisco by stametseater on Sunday April 16, 2023 @10:00PM (#35596047)
Those who can't keep up with the rest. The only alternative is to hold everybody back to the level of the dimwits, and that's atrocious.
Re:'Algebra for none' fails in San Francisco by kelseyfrog on Sunday April 16, 2023 @11:37PM (#35596606)
Who gets to decide that?
Re:'Algebra for none' fails in San Francisco by rlt on Monday April 17, 2023 @12:06AM (#35596742)
Test scores?
Re:'Algebra for none' fails in San Francisco by kelseyfrog on Monday April 17, 2023 @12:39AM (#35596912)
Test scores aren't decision making agents. Try again.
Re:'Algebra for none' fails in San Francisco by alex_sf on Monday April 17, 2023 @02:19AM (#35597361)
You're being intentionally obtuse. If you have the capacity to have an accelerated program for 1,000 students in a district, then you rank by test scores and bring in the top 1,000.
Re:'Algebra for none' fails in San Francisco by kelseyfrog on Monday April 17, 2023 @11:03AM (#35601865)
My intentions aren't epistomologically accessible to you.

What parents are doing is laundering their agency through a testing regime. It's part of the process of the absolution of responsibility of consequence.

As an aside, it's clear that parents aren't mature enough to be approached socratically. I regret their schools taught them to read and write. They clearly don't want to learn.

Re:'Algebra for none' fails in San Francisco by alex_sf on Monday April 17, 2023 @12:09PM (#35602804)
No, your intentions are very clear (and naive), you're just wrong.
Re:'Algebra for none' fails in San Francisco by kelseyfrog on Monday April 17, 2023 @01:33PM (#35603867)
Since we're clearly able to read each other's intentions, yours are to disrupt the legitimate line of questioning with a temper tantrum. I hope you see where assuming people's intentions ends up. I know you can do better than that.
Re:'Algebra for none' fails in San Francisco by dang on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @05:44PM (#35633693)
You broke the site guidelines badly here. We ban accounts that do that, regardless of how provocative other comments were or you feel they were.

Fortunately it doesn't look like you've been making a habit of this (at least not from a quick look at the account's recent posts in other threads), so this should be easy to fix. If you'd review https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and stick to using HN as intended, we'd appreciate it.

Re:'Algebra for none' fails in San Francisco by dang on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @05:46PM (#35633716)
Please don't break the site guidelines with personal attacks or name-calling.

You've done this in other threads too, unfortunately (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35469483 was particularly bad). We have to ban accounts that post like this, so if you'd please review https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and stick to the rules from now on, we'd appreciate it.

Re:'Algebra for none' fails in San Francisco by bendbro on Monday April 17, 2023 @02:13PM (#35604374)
> It's part of the process of the absolution of responsibility of consequence

My intentions aren't epistemologically accessible to you.

> As an aside, it's clear that parent commenters aren't mature enough to be approached socratically. I regret their schools taught them to read and write. They clearly don't want to learn

You have a licensing clause on your comments. I regret that your school didn't bully you enough to realize you shouldn't be an ideologically grotesque nerd.

Feel free to respond once you've decided we're done with ad-homs and self defeating arguments.

Re:'Algebra for none' fails in San Francisco by kelseyfrog on Monday April 17, 2023 @02:58PM (#35604978)
> I regret that your school didn't bully you enough to realize you shouldn't be an ideologically grotesque nerd.

You can bully me here. Let's see what you got.

Re:'Algebra for none' fails in San Francisco by bendbro on Monday April 17, 2023 @06:03PM (#35607226)
Ok based, but I still disagree and recant nothing. I don't know, my dad will beat up your dad?
Re:'Algebra for none' fails in San Francisco by dang on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @05:43PM (#35633683)
You broke the site guidelines badly with this post. We ban accounts that do this. Your account has been doing things like this repeatedly. Can you please stick to the rules from now on?

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re:'Algebra for none' fails in San Francisco by dang on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @05:43PM (#35633679)
Personal attacks are not allowed here. Your comment would be fine without the first bit.

If you wouldn't mind reviewing https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and taking the intended spirit of the site more to heart, we'd be grateful.

Re:'Algebra for none' fails in San Francisco by Der_Einzige on Monday April 17, 2023 @10:26AM (#35601219)
Kids who are disruptive/discipline problems. Teachers should not be removing slow students who do not cause issues in the classroom. Teachers should remove disruptive students. Disruptive students lose their learning pass, and all would benefit from such a situation.

Teachers becoming disciplinarians is where they become authoritarian, exploitive arbiters of ones future earning potential.

Re:'Algebra for none' fails in San Francisco by kelseyfrog on Monday April 17, 2023 @03:53PM (#35605696)
I'd encourage you to think critically about the design and implementation of such a system, the incentives it would generate and the moral hazards of enacting it. It's not like labeling kids as "unworthy of learning" could be abused.
Re:'Algebra for none' fails in San Francisco by dang on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @05:42PM (#35633673)
Could you please not take HN threads further into flamewar? It's not what this site is for, and destroys what it is for.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re:'Algebra for none' fails in San Francisco by ChainOfFools on Monday April 17, 2023 @01:11AM (#35597049)
A callous way to put it, but it could also be stated that setting people up for modest success is a much kinder position than setting them up for exceptional failure.
Re:'Algebra for none' fails in San Francisco by nobody9999 on Monday April 17, 2023 @01:58AM (#35597265)
>Some students need to be left behind

Definitely. Let's start stack ranking[0] in kindergarten and expel (and make that stick nationwide!) the bottom 10% every year.[1]

By the time students get to high school, we'll have best schools in the world!

Those who have been expelled had already reached their intellectual peak, especially those in primary school. amirite? /s

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vitality_curve

[1] Please use this is a "clear indicator of intent to parody" -- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poe's_law

Re:'Algebra for none' fails in San Francisco by dang on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @05:41PM (#35633663)
Could you please stop posting unsubstantive comments and flamebait? You've unfortunately been doing it repeatedly. It's not what this site is for, and destroys what it is for.

If you wouldn't mind reviewing https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and taking the intended spirit of the site more to heart, we'd be grateful.

Re:'Algebra for none' fails in San Francisco by sigstoat on Monday April 17, 2023 @02:04AM (#35597290)
> I think the idea is that if it’s important to rich parents, they will grudgingly fund education for everyone.

it doesn't cost more for a teacher to open up an algebra book and teach from that instead of from the pre-algebra book. unless there are scheduling difficulties which somehow prevent one classroom's worth of students from being crammed into the same room in the same slot, the imagined lack of money isn't going to impact the contents of the curriculum.

this isn't like when we thought we needed to cram schools full of computers and they were going to cost money. one math class is an expensive as another to teach. we don't even need new textbooks. hell, we probably don't even need textbooks, just have them do exercises online or something.

Re:'Algebra for none' fails in San Francisco by firstlink on Monday April 17, 2023 @09:37AM (#35600510)
> one math class is an expensive as another to teach

On the contrary, I'm sure that a teacher who understands algebra well enough to teach it competently costs much more than the other kind, on account of being so rare.

Re:'Algebra for none' fails in San Francisco by colonCapitalDee on Monday April 17, 2023 @02:17AM (#35597348)
> But as long as they have these outlets where they can just educate their own kids and leave everyone else behind, they will.

Education is a collective action problem. Parents care more about their own child's education than the education of other children. This should not be surprising, and it cannot be changed.