News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Long Covid Appears to Have Led to a Surge of Disabled in ... by Animats on Saturday April 15, 2023 @01:21PM (#35582571)
Amazingly, this is not being treated as a big problem.
Re:Long Covid Appears to Have Led to a Surge of Disabled in ... by das-hinterland on Saturday April 15, 2023 @01:37PM (#35582704)
Because it's a made-up disease whose symptoms can be ascribed to many generic viral illnesses.

It's the proverbial ball of string for those that don't want Covid to ever end.

The people that still wear N95 respirators at work or to the grocery store that stare everyone else down as if we're the mental ones.

Re:Long Covid Appears to Have Led to a Surge of Disabled in ... by semicolon_storm on Saturday April 15, 2023 @01:42PM (#35582757)
Pretty wild you think millions of people are making up a debilitating illness because they "don't want Covid to ever end". Further, you seem to forget immunocompromised people exist.

You don't seem to realize that people have different life experiences than you.

Re:Long Covid Appears to Have Led to a Surge of Disabled in ... by das-hinterland on Saturday April 15, 2023 @01:46PM (#35582803)
Immunocompromised people existed before covid yet they weren't walking around like Darth Vader. When is it going to end? Covid is significantly weakened. They cannot continue to live the rest of their lives in fear, it's debilitating to their mental health. However social media has enabled this behaviour.
Re:Long Covid Appears to Have Led to a Surge of Disabled in ... by semicolon_storm on Saturday April 15, 2023 @02:06PM (#35583004)
>Immunocompromised people existed before covid yet they weren't walking around like Darth Vader.

It's almost like there's a serious and highly infectious virus still circulating. Perhaps one that has a reputation for seriously harming or killing immunocompromised people.

>When is it going to end?

Better question, why do _you_ care when _others_ decide to stop wearing a mask?

This is like a non-asthmatic person criticizing someone with asthma for living in fear by carrying their inhaler in their pocket. When is asthma going to end? Surely they can't just carry around an inhaler for the rest of their lives, right?

>They cannot continue to live the rest of their lives in fear, it's debilitating to their mental health. However social media has enabled this behaviour.

Yet you're here on social media stressing about other people choosing to wear masks. Honestly for many people it's second nature at this point. Other countries like Japan had people wearing masks in public long before 2020.

Re:Long Covid Appears to Have Led to a Surge of Disabled in ... by das-hinterland on Saturday April 15, 2023 @02:21PM (#35583166)
1. There was a serious and highly infectious virus circulating. However this is no longer true hence the rest of society having moved on.

2. The asthma analogy is irrelevant.

3. Societies in east Asia wear masks when they're sick; to prevent the spread of illness. Somewhere along the way this narrative has changed to it being a magic invincibility cloak and credited to Asian society, which it never was.

Re:Long Covid Appears to Have Led to a Surge of Disabled in ... by ghaff on Saturday April 15, 2023 @02:36PM (#35583301)
Many people, most of whom I assume have never been to Asia, made up this narrative that people in Japan, for example, routinely wore masks day-to-day pre-pandemic. That simply isn't true and I could show you any number of photographs. Yes, it wasn't unheard of when people were sick but the idea that the average Japanese commuter was wearing a mask in 2019 is simply untrue.
Re:Long Covid Appears to Have Led to a Surge of Disabled in ... by semicolon_storm on Saturday April 15, 2023 @03:13PM (#35583653)
Complete strawman, I never claimed everybody in Japan wore masks daily and that's an argument I've never even seen made. I live in an area with a dominate Asian culture and have visited numerous eastern asian countries.
Re:Long Covid Appears to Have Led to a Surge of Disabled in ... by semicolon_storm on Saturday April 15, 2023 @03:17PM (#35583687)
1. You believe Covid no longer exists?

2. It's not, you just don't want to accept it.

3. Would it surprise you to hear that people are still wearing face masks for that same reason? Your "magic invincibility cloak" is a strawman argument that nobody has ever made.

Re:Long Covid Appears to Have Led to a Surge of Disabled in ... by josephcsible on Saturday April 15, 2023 @02:13PM (#35583067)
> Better question, why do _you_ care when _others_ decide to stop wearing a mask?

The issue isn't that others are still wearing masks themselves. It's that they're trying their hardest to force the rest of us to wear masks still. E.g.: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35582836

Re:Long Covid Appears to Have Led to a Surge of Disabled in ... by semicolon_storm on Saturday April 15, 2023 @03:27PM (#35583796)
There have been zero masks mandates in place for over a year and Covid policies are only getting more relaxed, so that "issue" doesn't really seem to have any teeth.
Re:Long Covid Appears to Have Led to a Surge of Disabled in ... by josephcsible on Saturday April 15, 2023 @04:04PM (#35584051)
The thread I linked is full of posts advocating bringing them back.
Re:Long Covid Appears to Have Led to a Surge of Disabled in ... by pandaman on Saturday April 15, 2023 @10:04PM (#35586591)
This is not true, e.g. California just lifted its mask mandate in "healthcare settings" less than two weeks ago [1]. Different institutions still maintain their own mask mandates to this day though and not just in California.

1. https://www.msn.com/en-us/health/other/the-california-mask-m...

Re:Long Covid Appears to Have Led to a Surge of Disabled in ... by chx on Saturday April 15, 2023 @01:50PM (#35582836)
Those who are more vulnerable are watching as the world left us hanging dry.

There was no reason to end mask mandates. None. Except a few loudmouths the entire world have caved to.

We have seen how cheap DIY filter boxes are. There is no reason not to have one in every classroom and workplace. And yet.

I am desperate enough to experiment with a Cleanspace Halo, the smallest positive air pressure respirator there is to be able to go among people. If no one else is willing to provide clean air, I need to filter my own. It's bloody ridiculous but what can I do?

Re:Long Covid Appears to Have Led to a Surge of Disabled in ... by ericd on Saturday April 15, 2023 @01:56PM (#35582893)
It seems pretty clear that children learn a lot from seeing peoples’ facial expressions, so that’s one reason to end universal mask mandates. Our kids’ teachers strongly advised removing the school’s mask mandate when it came up for discussion, because of an uptick in speech issues and because some of their pedagogical methods relying on showing the kids the movements of their mouths.

They’re running three beefy HEPA filters at all times in one room, this isn’t politically motivated or an attempt to ignore the problem.

Re:Long Covid Appears to Have Led to a Surge of Disabled in ... by chx on Saturday April 15, 2023 @02:11PM (#35583046)
So then provide federal funding for HEPA filters and make exceptions in the mask mandate for those classrooms where those are present? Just a thought.

Do something instead of playing Bush on that bloody ship under the banner Mission Accomplished by declaring the pandemic over?

Re:Long Covid Appears to Have Led to a Surge of Disabled in ... by helij on Saturday April 15, 2023 @02:56PM (#35583488)
Counterpoint: The only thing children learn from seeing faces is how to fake a smile. By wearing masks they can observe the whole body which is much harder to control. What I said is not based on science as far as I know.
Re:Long Covid Appears to Have Led to a Surge of Disabled in ... by ceejayoz on Saturday April 15, 2023 @01:52PM (#35582861)
Whatever one thinks of general mask mandates, I think I'll always be baffled that we're ditching it in healthcare settings, especially places like ERs.

I don't expect to ever go into an ER or pediatrician's office without one.

Re:Long Covid Appears to Have Led to a Surge of Disabled in ... by erentz on Saturday April 15, 2023 @02:21PM (#35583159)
Yeah we handled the mask issue so poorly.

It very quickly stopped being about finding what is a reasonable policy to just a stupid culture war fight over all masks all the time vs any masks anytime are communist police state designed to make your child gay.

Just dumb dumb dumb.

Even in places that handled the pandemic fairly well like NZ their mask policies were kind of silly.

My peeve that I will never stop being angry about is we knew from quite early on that COVID was airborne and surgical masks were not very effective. But public health authorities refused to communicate this to the public. They did not make an effort to make people aware or to issue N95/KN95 masks and update the policies to reflect more balance about which places it’s optimal to mask vs not.

It was just left to individuals to work it out on their own.

Re:Long Covid Appears to Have Led to a Surge of Disabled in ... by Animats on Saturday April 15, 2023 @04:46PM (#35584363)
While N95 masks actually work, most of the cloth masks do very little. But there was a huge shortage of good masks for the first year, and WHO was terrified of fights over masks if they recommended N95.

(The trick of N95 masks is that they have a charged electret layer in the middle. That will capture particles smaller than the holes in the mask. It's not like an HEPA filter, which is purely mechanical.)

Re:Long Covid Appears to Have Led to a Surge of Disabled in ... by hezralig on Saturday April 15, 2023 @01:57PM (#35582902)
It makes more sense if you view it as an extremely politically motivated decision to signal that we should stop thinking about COVID entirely.
Re:Long Covid Appears to Have Led to a Surge of Disabled in ... by standardUser on Saturday April 15, 2023 @02:12PM (#35583061)
Your theory sounds conspiratorial and lacking in evidence.
Re:Long Covid Appears to Have Led to a Surge of Disabled in ... by hezralig on Saturday April 15, 2023 @02:26PM (#35583219)
Ironic considering your comment.
Re:Long Covid Appears to Have Led to a Surge of Disabled in ... by mardifoufs on Saturday April 15, 2023 @07:39PM (#35585760)
What was conspirational in his comment?
Re:Long Covid Appears to Have Led to a Surge of Disabled in ... by hezralig on Sunday April 16, 2023 @01:04PM (#35591852)
The conspiracy of a conspiracy. ;)
Re:Long Covid Appears to Have Led to a Surge of Disabled in ... by bugglebeetle on Sunday April 16, 2023 @02:14AM (#35587711)
Read any newspaper for the past year and a half that has been ceaselessly pumping out “COVID is over” think pieces while life expectancy is declining, excess deaths remain high (whereas before the pandemic they were largely static for years and years), and disability claims rise. It takes effort to ignore how much the consent is being manufactured.
Re:Long Covid Appears to Have Led to a Surge of Disabled in ... by Animats on Saturday April 15, 2023 @04:50PM (#35584397)
Yes. It's called "acceptable losses".[1]

The idea that only deaths matter is part of this narrative.

[1] https://www.latimes.com/science/story/2022-04-01/covid-accep...

Re:Long Covid Appears to Have Led to a Surge of Disabled in ... by dageshi on Saturday April 15, 2023 @01:58PM (#35582922)
Even in countries that widely and overwhelmingly supported mask mandates pre-vaccine I don't think that support would extend to an indefinite mask mandate.
Re:Long Covid Appears to Have Led to a Surge of Disabled in ... by DeusExMachina on Saturday April 15, 2023 @01:57PM (#35582904)
Even the New York Times admitted that the mask mandates did nothing, following "The most rigorous and comprehensive analysis of scientific studies":

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/02/21/opinion/do-mask-mandates-...

Re:Long Covid Appears to Have Led to a Surge of Disabled in ... by chx on Saturday April 15, 2023 @01:59PM (#35582934)
Re:Long Covid Appears to Have Led to a Surge of Disabled in ... by DeusExMachina on Saturday April 15, 2023 @02:05PM (#35582995)
The source is cited literally in the first line of the article:

https://www.cochranelibrary.com/cdsr/doi/10.1002/14651858.CD...

Unlike your study from November 2020, this one is from January 2023.

Re:Long Covid Appears to Have Led to a Surge of Disabled in ... by chx on Saturday April 15, 2023 @02:20PM (#35583153)
There's a lot of dark money flowing into rewriting history to say that any response to COVID—which has killed >1 million Americans and disabled millions more—was an overreaction so the next pandemic won't disrupt businesses so much. That's what this op-ed is part of, nothing more, nothing less.

That's why this really simple thing became so controversial. I mean, if a virus sticks to droplets then it's better to put less droplets into the air. Masks do that. Easy? Should be.

Re:Long Covid Appears to Have Led to a Surge of Disabled in ... by DeusExMachina on Saturday April 15, 2023 @02:29PM (#35583234)
Do you have any evidence for such claims or is it just another conspiracy theory?

As for what mask do, if it was that easy, there wouldn't be the need of so many studies. But that is not even the claim here. The article says mask mandates make no difference.

Even if we assume that masks work, people wear them wrongly, they reuse them instead of using clean ones, fidget with them and then touch other parts of their face. There are plenty of reasons why a mandate could not work.

Re:Long Covid Appears to Have Led to a Surge of Disabled in ... by ceejayoz on Saturday April 15, 2023 @02:15PM (#35583090)
The source says the interpretation is bullshit. https://www.cochrane.org/news/statement-physical-interventio...
Re:Long Covid Appears to Have Led to a Surge of Disabled in ... by 399215728 on Saturday April 15, 2023 @02:13PM (#35583070)
The key line from the study that that cites:

> The high risk of bias in the trials, variation in outcome measurement, and relatively low adherence with the interventions during the studies hampers drawing firm conclusions

Source: https://www.cochranelibrary.com/cdsr/doi/10.1002/14651858.CD...

They asked people to wear masks, and they didn't wear masks, so they had trouble concluding things about masks.

This New York Times article prompted the Cochrane review to issue a statement:

> The Cochrane Review 'Physical interventions to interrupt or reduce the spread of respiratory viruses' was published in January 2023 and has been widely misinterpreted.

Source: https://www.cochrane.org/news/statement-physical-interventio...

Re:Long Covid Appears to Have Led to a Surge of Disabled in ... by ceejayoz on Saturday April 15, 2023 @02:00PM (#35582940)
That's a right-wing commentator's oped. It's by no means the opinion of "the New York Times".
Re:Long Covid Appears to Have Led to a Surge of Disabled in ... by DeusExMachina on Saturday April 15, 2023 @02:06PM (#35583007)
So, right-wing means wrong? He cites a study in the first line of the article.
Re:Long Covid Appears to Have Led to a Surge of Disabled in ... by ceejayoz on Saturday April 15, 2023 @02:16PM (#35583096)
The cited study is misrepresented.

https://www.cochrane.org/news/statement-physical-interventio...

> Many commentators have claimed that a recently-updated Cochrane Review shows that 'masks don't work', which is an inaccurate and misleading interpretation.

Re:Long Covid Appears to Have Led to a Surge of Disabled in ... by ghaff on Saturday April 15, 2023 @02:57PM (#35583496)
The actual conclusion is simply that there's no evidence to support that they work (or don't work). Which isn't exactly a ringing endorsement given that it's hard to prove a negative.

"It would be accurate to say that the review examined whether interventions to promote mask wearing help to slow the spread of respiratory viruses, and that the results were inconclusive. Given the limitations in the primary evidence, the review is not able to address the question of whether mask-wearing itself reduces people's risk of contracting or spreading respiratory viruses."

Re:Long Covid Appears to Have Led to a Surge of Disabled in ... by chx on Saturday April 15, 2023 @02:12PM (#35583062)
Yes, right wing means wrong because they fund bogus studies. Plenty of those around. There's a lot of money into going into mishandling this.
Re:Long Covid Appears to Have Led to a Surge of Disabled in ... by mardifoufs on Saturday April 15, 2023 @07:40PM (#35585774)
Cochrane is right wing funded now?
Re:Long Covid Appears to Have Led to a Surge of Disabled in ... by standardUser on Saturday April 15, 2023 @02:15PM (#35583087)
They were simply pointing out the obvious political bias, and that this was an opinion piece, crafted explicitly to sway opinion, not to present neutral facts.
Re:Long Covid Appears to Have Led to a Surge of Disabled in ... by mhb on Saturday April 15, 2023 @01:58PM (#35582921)
If no one else is willing to provide clean air, I need to filter my own. It's bloody ridiculous but what can I do?

Right. Isn't this the situation if you wear a mask? What does this have to do with other people?

Re:Long Covid Appears to Have Led to a Surge of Disabled in ... by chx on Saturday April 15, 2023 @02:00PM (#35582939)
My mask protects you, your mask protects me. Three years in I still need to explain this??
Re:Long Covid Appears to Have Led to a Surge of Disabled in ... by mwint on Saturday April 15, 2023 @02:03PM (#35582973)
You aren’t explaining it, you’re just repeating the same tired informationless phrase we were all subjected to for those ~2.75 years (after they stopped saying masks do nothing)
Re:Long Covid Appears to Have Led to a Surge of Disabled in ... by chx on Saturday April 15, 2023 @11:23PM (#35586994)
Sigh, really, this entire thread is supremely depressing

y'all just want us to die, right?

Re:Long Covid Appears to Have Led to a Surge of Disabled in ... by Gud on Sunday April 16, 2023 @03:05AM (#35587916)
No, but many of us believe the worlds reaction to COVID-19 was extreme and totally unwarranted (and a bit scary too, considering how basic human freedoms went out the window in so many countries)
Re:Long Covid Appears to Have Led to a Surge of Disabled in ... by chx on Sunday April 16, 2023 @01:46PM (#35592396)
A million americans died and you think the reaction was extreme?? What we know worldwide is at least 18 million excess Covid deaths and at least 65 million people with Long Covid. The entire Western world has completely failed in its COVID-19 response. If you think this was extreme, you are being gaslit. Too little was done and way too late. Communication and leadership complete failed.

There is a lot of money going into making you believe what you believe. Next time maybe there won't be lockdowns because of this campaign currently being wrought and then many more millions will die. Someone will win perhaps but guess who. Hint: it ain't you.

Re:Long Covid Appears to Have Led to a Surge of Disabled in ... by Gud on Sunday April 16, 2023 @09:38PM (#35595920)
Actually I accept that theee are risks to life. I am not being gaslit - I take freedom seriously.
Re:Long Covid Appears to Have Led to a Surge of Disabled in ... by chx on Sunday April 16, 2023 @11:48PM (#35596661)
Ah yes, muh freedoms!

And where is my freedom? Where is my freedom to live and not breath in your infected droplets?

https://www.bryanhealth.com/app/files/public/9a4cd902-5ffd-4...

Re:Long Covid Appears to Have Led to a Surge of Disabled in ... by mhb on Monday April 17, 2023 @01:05AM (#35597023)
So wear two masks.
Re:Long Covid Appears to Have Led to a Surge of Disabled in ... by mhb on Saturday April 15, 2023 @02:06PM (#35583003)
That's not an explanation. If you wear a mask, you're protecting yourself. You can even wear a more comfortable mask with a vent, which became anathema due to your "explanation".
Re:Long Covid Appears to Have Led to a Surge of Disabled in ... by chx on Sunday April 16, 2023 @02:50PM (#35593100)
https://www.bryanhealth.com/app/files/public/9a4cd902-5ffd-4...

give me a break. Yes wearing a mask helps me as well but nowhere near as if you were doing it.

Don't make me link the pee meme.

Re:Long Covid Appears to Have Led to a Surge of Disabled in ... by mhb on Monday April 17, 2023 @02:07PM (#35604306)
Sorry not as plugged into memeworld as you so don't know WTF this is.

Us both wearing masks protects you as much as you wearing two masks. But even better, you can just wear an N99 or N100. Also you should consider P95 or Pxx because of the much nicer seal.

I don't understand why you need to get other people involved in this simple thing you can do yourself.

Re:Long Covid Appears to Have Led to a Surge of Disabled in ... by ericd on Saturday April 15, 2023 @02:03PM (#35582968)
Wear an N99?
Re:Long Covid Appears to Have Led to a Surge of Disabled in ... by psychphysic on Saturday April 15, 2023 @02:02PM (#35582956)
Because surge is a bit of an overstatement looking at the graph and that long COVID seems to resolve the workforce has bigger fish to fry.

The recent progress of AI is a bigger concern.

Re:Long Covid Appears to Have Led to a Surge of Disabled in ... by erentz on Saturday April 15, 2023 @02:03PM (#35582969)
More like the progress of AI may be our savior here. Allowing fewer to be more productive. (Hopefully.)
Re:Long Covid Appears to Have Led to a Surge of Disabled in ... by psychphysic on Saturday April 15, 2023 @02:15PM (#35583088)
Hopefully, it may also reverse the trend that work tools a require higher IQs to effectively utilize.
Re:Long Covid Appears to Have Led to a Surge of Disabled in ... by erentz on Saturday April 15, 2023 @02:02PM (#35582958)
I worry the impact this will have long term. Both economically as a lot are taken out of the workforce or remain but with less function. And socially as we have this bigger pool of people we need to care for (and likely fail to care for). It’s remarkable it’s been ignored but turning it into a culture war for short term political gain seems to have made any serious discussion about it impossible now. Just look how immediately comments about masking in this discussion were grayed out.
Re:Long Covid Appears to Have Led to a Surge of Disabled in ... by bugglebeetle on Saturday April 15, 2023 @02:30PM (#35583252)
The culture war is a byproduct of the larger issue that legitimately dealing with all the consequences of COVID would require large changes to our infrastructure and social safety nets (e.g. clean air systems, paid sick leave, etc). Just with things like the housing crisis or overdose deaths, it’s much cheaper to individualize it all way.

Essentially, any problems whose solutions have the potential to alter the economic or political order are not allowed to exist. Much cheaper to sow division and obfuscate reality through the myriad well-established propaganda outlets.

Re:Long Covid Appears to Have Led to a Surge of Disabled in ... by standardUser on Saturday April 15, 2023 @02:04PM (#35582981)
Is it being treated any better or worse than the dozens of other "big problems" we collectively have to deal with? Are we moving heaven and earth to stop sexual assaults? Or Fentanyl overdoses? Or cardiac deaths? Or youth suicide? Or mass shootings? It seems like there is only a finite amount of friction we can endure en masse to mitigate the problems that plague our health and well-being. If anything, I see several other issues in more urgent need of greater sacrifices on all our parts than long COVID.
Re:Long Covid Appears to Have Led to a Surge of Disabled in ... by 399215728 on Saturday April 15, 2023 @02:16PM (#35583099)
I think there are different people working on each issue. There's no collective "they" that has to split their focus. The microbiologists and epidemiologists that could be studying long COVID aren't the same people that would be working on preventing youth suicide.
Re:Long Covid Appears to Have Led to a Surge of Disabled in ... by standardUser on Saturday April 15, 2023 @02:21PM (#35583167)
The collective "they" I was referring to was society at large. The general public. But even among researchers working on solutions to these problems there certainly is a limited amount of resources to fund their research.
Re:Long Covid Appears to Have Led to a Surge of Disabled in ... by 399215728 on Saturday April 15, 2023 @02:29PM (#35583233)
I totally agree that the "general public" has "limited focus," especially since public health campaigns are hard!

However, my claim is that a lot of progress on these issues doesn't need to be very public. Telling the public to do a thing sounds like the last step of the process, after researchers have already found a definitive solution.

I also agree that researchers have a limited amount of resources! But I don't think that funding a research area is necessarily zero-sum. If a company or government decides to throw extra money to start researching a thing, research on other things doesn't stop. As an example, when the NSF provides more funding for research, the number of PhD students goes up, since there are more research grants to go around.