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Re:I wish GPT4 had never happened by qaq on Saturday April 08, 2023 @01:27PM (#35495555)
Well maybe shift to "real world" professions will occur resulting in us addressing abysmal infrastructure and housing situation. I am looking at picking up a trade because of this coming shift.
Re:I wish GPT4 had never happened by bayarearefugee on Saturday April 08, 2023 @01:36PM (#35495659)
I don't think people appreciate the mass disruption of a shift like this happening across so many industries all at the same time. This sort of professional shift works when automation comes for a subset of a single sector, but we're looking at an everywhere all at once situation. How many plumbers are we going to need, exactly?

I also don't think people appreciate the absolute social turmoil that will occur as a result of this because of our complete lack of planning for it.

Afraid you won't have a useful job due to the rapid rise of AI replacing vast amounts of knowledge workers? Get to work building guillotines. You won't be able to sell them for very much but you can make up for it in volume.

To the wealth class: Massive amounts of people don't just quietly disappear when they suddenly can't feed or house their families because they've been automated out of a job.

Re:I wish GPT4 had never happened by mertd on Saturday April 08, 2023 @01:40PM (#35495709)
People are very good at creating work. Every time tech creates a paradigm shift and people cry that there will be not enough work, the exact opposite happens.
Re:I wish GPT4 had never happened by simonh on Saturday April 08, 2023 @02:05PM (#35495970)
Exactly, reeve been automating the living crap out of almost everything fir hundreds of years, but employment has never been higher. Automation leads to higher productivity, cheaper goods and services, increased need for technical skills, thus higher wages and higher demand.

Of course there can be some painful periods of adjustment, but that’s often caused by misguided policy trying to hold back the tide and delay the inevitable.

Ultimately yes, full no holds barred human level AI may well render human labour obsolete, but we’re a very long way away from that.

I know some people think LLMs are close to that already, but no, not even remotely close. I do believe strong AI is possible and maybe even inevitable. They’re a huge step forward, and are easily the biggest advance towards strong AI in my lifetime, but these things are just tools.

Re:I wish GPT4 had never happened by avereveard on Saturday April 08, 2023 @05:10PM (#35497673)
We have been automating at the beginning of the production chain , mostly.

This is the first automation that targets directly knowledge workers, and hit almost all of them but those in profession where error can cause people deaths.

Traditionally knowledge workers were the bulk of the middle class, because well it takes 30 years to produce one and not all make the cut, so they are paid market prices instead of minimum wages.

And by that nature, knowledge workers cannot reinvent themselves overnight, there will nowhere left to go for them.

Maybe lawyers and medics and a few other can entrenche themselves with legislation, but if you are a knowledge worker in a non union field things look scary.

Re:I wish GPT4 had never happened by simonh on Saturday April 08, 2023 @05:32PM (#35497842)
> This is the first automation that targets directly knowledge workers

You really don’t think computers, software and telecommunications services have boosted the productivity of knowledge workers?

Re:I wish GPT4 had never happened by cpeterso on Saturday April 08, 2023 @06:00PM (#35498078)
Automation meaning replacement of the knowledge workers.
Re:I wish GPT4 had never happened by avereveard on Saturday April 08, 2023 @06:26PM (#35498257)
These were automation tools for the knowledge worker, this is an automation tool of the knowledge worker.
Re:I wish GPT4 had never happened by simonh on Saturday April 08, 2023 @08:45PM (#35499093)
Real human level strong AI would be that, but the LLMs we have now are nowhere close. They are just a powerful new software tool in the hands of specialists.

Maybe GPT10 might get there, but I suspect we’ll quickly reach diminishing returns with current and near future architectures.

Re:I wish GPT4 had never happened by qaq on Saturday April 08, 2023 @09:03PM (#35499202)
I think you are overestimating complexity of most office jobs.
Re:I wish GPT4 had never happened by simonh on Saturday April 08, 2023 @10:30PM (#35499580)
A lot of the simplest office jobs like typist and most managers personal secretaries have already been replaced.

These tools will increase productivity which will deprecate some jobs, but that is not at all the same thing as reducing overall employment.

Re:I wish GPT4 had never happened by tekknik on Sunday April 09, 2023 @12:48AM (#35500147)
This is a real hand wavy way to look at it. How about on the individual level? How is an individual affected by this and can you put yourself in their shoes?
Re:I wish GPT4 had never happened by simonh on Sunday April 09, 2023 @02:58AM (#35500580)
I can’t tell you which individual people will lose their jobs, or even which specific jobs will end up being cut and why. Can you? We’re both just making different estimates of the likely overall effects. I’m basing mine in the known historical effects of automation on economies and employment, and the fact that previous arguments that were all doomed by it have every single time turned out to be false.
Re:I wish GPT4 had never happened by tekknik on Sunday April 09, 2023 @10:37AM (#35503112)
No, nobody can and that’s the point. Except the flaw in your thinking is your applying what happened in the past to the present. Nobody has every automated a human brain before, they mostly automated muscles away. This time is different so therefore you cannot assume that since a welding robot didn’t destroy the world that AI won’t. Automation and AI are not the same and we should quit calling it as such.
Re:I wish GPT4 had never happened by qualudeheart on Sunday April 09, 2023 @03:12AM (#35500642)
You will have somewhere to go. You can become a rich person’s serf and they give you food and an allowance and a place to live. It’s like childhood.
Re:I wish GPT4 had never happened by 876978095789789 on Sunday April 09, 2023 @05:45AM (#35501221)
> You can become a rich person’s serf and they give you food and an allowance and a place to live

This, except I'm not sure they're going to actually deliver on the food, allowance, and place to live parts.

Re:I wish GPT4 had never happened by tekknik on Sunday April 09, 2023 @12:46AM (#35500141)
> painful periods of adjustment

sure like hunger, losing houses, unable to have kids or send them to decent schools or schools at all. but totally worth it right?

Re:I wish GPT4 had never happened by simonh on Sunday April 09, 2023 @02:48AM (#35500549)
I certainly won’t claim that capitalism is immune from abuses or failures. It’s undeniable that it has its failures. But criticising its failures is one thing, while criticising it as a failure is another. To make the latter claim credibly you’d need to argue for a better alternative that either further minimises or eliminates the flaws. What is it?
Re:I wish GPT4 had never happened by tekknik on Sunday April 09, 2023 @10:38AM (#35503122)
I’m all for capitalism. What Im tired of is tech workers, of which I am one, automating people’s jobs away.
Re:I wish GPT4 had never happened by zamnos on Saturday April 08, 2023 @02:05PM (#35495972)
Right. The last time a labor saving device came around, letting you do in 2 hours what it used to take 8 to do, it didn't give you 6 hours of vacation, it just meant you were more productive over your 8 hour day. If your job is now 90% "copy and paste into ChatGPT", you're still getting paid to know what to type into it.

Then again, I'm also reminded of a story of a homebuilder, hiring two workers. Together they held up the material and one of them measured the hypotenuse. Well, after someone showed him the Pythagorean theorem, the boss no longer needed the two workers to hold the materials up, and so sent one of them home. That day's labor market didn't expand to hire the guy who's job was replaced by a calculator. Does that extrapolate to the whole labor market, over a longer period of time, given a calculator for words?

Re:I wish GPT4 had never happened by HyperSane on Saturday April 08, 2023 @02:21PM (#35496118)
In the US at least we have used every technology that increases productivity to keep hours of labor constant and make the rich richer. Millions of Wal-Mart workers have to do a year of hard labor just to earn the cost of a set of new tires for the CEO's 10th supercar.
Re:I wish GPT4 had never happened by satvikpendem on Saturday April 08, 2023 @03:02PM (#35496480)
If the Walmart employees aren't needed, Walmart would just fire them. They're still there because their work is still required, as people are continuing to buy more stuff from Walmart. It's not some conspiracy to keep hours of labor consistent, the workers aren't getting paid 8 hours just for no reason.
Re:I wish GPT4 had never happened by TexanFeller on Saturday April 08, 2023 @03:36PM (#35496802)
> Millions of Wal-Mart workers have to do a year of hard labor

Working at Wal-Mart would be miserable in many ways, however nothing I've ever seen their employees do is even 10% of what I'd call "hard labor". Probably even their warehouses are not even close to farm/ranch/factory labor people associate with that term.

Re:I wish GPT4 had never happened by 800xl on Saturday April 08, 2023 @04:21PM (#35497218)
Someone has to unload the trucks and stack all that stuff on the shelves. It is pretty hard work. I know because I've done it.
Re:I wish GPT4 had never happened by klipklop on Sunday April 09, 2023 @02:28AM (#35500463)
Agreed. I don’t know if I could be on my feet 8 hours a day like when I worked retail. When you work in a big box store it’s easy to walk 8+ miles a day.
Re:I wish GPT4 had never happened by klipklop on Sunday April 09, 2023 @02:26AM (#35500456)
These jobs are not hard on the back, they are hard on the soul. Tilling a field can feel rewarding at the end of the day. Dealing with the living nightmare that is most Walmart shoppers is soul crushing.

Your viewpoint is rather callous. Just standing on your feet bored out of your mind can make even the most hardy miserable.

Re:I wish GPT4 had never happened by grepfru_it on Saturday April 08, 2023 @04:00PM (#35497014)
NB. A set of tires for a supercar typically costs about $2000
Re:I wish GPT4 had never happened by tekknik on Sunday April 09, 2023 @12:52AM (#35500156)
Hardly. LM002 tires are $5k each. $2k is what I you spend on tires for a WRX
Re:I wish GPT4 had never happened by grepfru_it on Sunday April 09, 2023 @10:53AM (#35503270)
First of all the LM002 is not what many would call a "Supercar". At least not modern day. An actual supercar, the Ferrari 296GTB, uses Michelin Pilot Sport 4S tires, the same tires you would put on a Porsche. Or your WRX. Further I looked up the CEO of walmart, he doesn't drive an LM002

Even the Lamborhini Revuelto uses Bridgestone Potenza Sport tires which clocks in at about $500/each

Re:I wish GPT4 had never happened by tekknik on Tuesday April 11, 2023 @11:17PM (#35534621)
Yes, lets go with the least cost example instead of the average.

Whether or not the CEO of walmart drives whatever supercar is irrelevant. Supercar tires on average do not cost $2k a set. Lets get real.

Re:I wish GPT4 had never happened by grepfru_it on Saturday April 15, 2023 @04:46PM (#35584365)
Sir a Ferrari 296GTB is a supercar
Re:I wish GPT4 had never happened by lisasays on Sunday April 09, 2023 @02:48AM (#35500548)
When people cry that there will be not enough work, the exact opposite happens.

Nevermind that these people aren't crybabies - and that it is incredible condescending to paint them as such.

More fundamentally - what you're asserting as a self-evident fact is massively contradicted by what is probably the single largest sea change in many Western countries in the last 50 years - the systemic disappearance of solid middle-class jobs (and at least some form of community in many places), due exactly to these nifty "paradigm shifts" you are referring to.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deindustrialization

Re:I wish GPT4 had never happened by qaq on Saturday April 08, 2023 @01:43PM (#35495758)
I'd say biggest displacement would be in IT, Insurance/Financial Services, Creative, legal, Thats not even 10% of the work force and it would prob. take a decade for it to fully play out.
Re:I wish GPT4 had never happened by sandworm101 on Saturday April 08, 2023 @01:52PM (#35495845)
It is only a displacement if one assume that the total demand will remain the same, that professionals will be replaced by the cheaper AI while the total volume of work needing to be done remains steady. Take law, there are a great many legal activities that are not done today because of the cost of entry. AI will make lawyers cheaper. That will meant previous tasks that were forgone due to costs will now be financially possible. A small claim that wasn't worth a lawyer's time today will, in a future of cheaper AI-supported lawyers, be financial viable. Complex legal structures like trusts or life estates, once only available to the élite, may now be available to all. The next result may be an actual increase in the demand for lawyers as the total pool of work increases, both AI-possible and that which AI cannot do.

So too for complex accounting/insurance structures.

Re:I wish GPT4 had never happened by tekknik on Sunday April 09, 2023 @12:54AM (#35500165)
This isn’t the greatest example as there’s some glaring issues. With more small claims taking up the court’s time then how will we have time to litigate actual important matters? Will we then have to result to AI judges? Slippery slope.
Re:I wish GPT4 had never happened by pbourke on Saturday April 08, 2023 @04:23PM (#35497243)
Also customer support, and various flavors of clerical and administrative work.

Under the BLS classification scheme, these jobs are sprinkled around under various industrial categories such as medical, logistics, business services, etc. they add up to a large number of jobs in the aggregate (probably another 10%)

Re:I wish GPT4 had never happened by jtode on Saturday April 08, 2023 @02:14PM (#35496049)
Indeed. One of two things is in our future: muscular socialism, or the guillotines.
Re:I wish GPT4 had never happened by vinte on Saturday April 08, 2023 @05:02PM (#35497588)
I think we still do not know exactly how it will shape our sociaty, but one thing is for sure, the products businesses will make with the help of AI, people have to buy them in the end. If they have no money how will people using AI benefit.
Re:I wish GPT4 had never happened by spaceguillotine on Saturday April 08, 2023 @01:34PM (#35495638)
i did that, i got injured at work and now can't do physical labor. Trades are hell on the body and bosses will toss you aside without any care. Join a Union if you're gonna go into the trades, i would've had protection and better safety.

I took so many people to the ER for work injuries that were preventable but the bosses skimp on everything.

Re:I wish GPT4 had never happened by qaq on Saturday April 08, 2023 @01:38PM (#35495686)
What would you say is the safest trade as far as risk of injury ?
Re:I wish GPT4 had never happened by user_7832 on Saturday April 08, 2023 @01:45PM (#35495776)
Not OP, but I’d assume something at a nuclear plant (or something else that’s govt owned.)
Re:I wish GPT4 had never happened by tekknik on Sunday April 09, 2023 @12:56AM (#35500174)
Someone didn’t watch Chernobyl
Re:I wish GPT4 had never happened by user_7832 on Sunday April 09, 2023 @04:15AM (#35500854)
Fair point haha
Re:I wish GPT4 had never happened by great_psy on Saturday April 08, 2023 @01:57PM (#35495892)
I would say electrician? Your biggest risk is electrocution and asbestos exposure.
Re:I wish GPT4 had never happened by ska on Saturday April 08, 2023 @02:02PM (#35495951)
Risk of injury comes from two things: Environment and stresses on the body.

Environmental risks can be mitigated, if the job location inherently has risks, you will be better off with a regulated industry where the regulations have teeth, and probably in a union. Stresses on the body are largely mitigated by having a job that takes more brain than back, but watch out for repetitive motion stuff and mitigate that yourself.

Mostly in the trades you get paid more for some mix of a) having in-demand skills and experience that aren't easy to acquire fast, b) putting up with unpleasant environments, or c) accepting risks. You can probably trade off c against a mix of a) and b).

So for example being a tool and die maker in general is way safer than being a faller. Watch for industry specific stuff too. Kicking carpet is more pleasant and less dangerous than electrical, but it won't pay well and your knees are likely screwed by your mid 40s.

Re:I wish GPT4 had never happened by ilyt on Saturday April 08, 2023 @01:49PM (#35495814)
Housing situation isn't there because there isn't enough people to build houses...
Re:I wish GPT4 had never happened by ilaksh on Saturday April 08, 2023 @02:36PM (#35496236)
Robotics will rapidly pick up improved capabilities. With so many people out of work and so much automation being consolidated, what do you think all the entrepreneurs and researchers will look to next? It will be breakthroughs and efficiency improvements in robotics .

I think this "learn a trade" plan has maybe 5 years max. By then the trades will also be automated.

Re:I wish GPT4 had never happened by BirdieNZ on Saturday April 08, 2023 @03:41PM (#35496851)
I'm not a gambling man but if I was I would put a very large amount of my net worth on a bet that no trades will be automated in 5 years time. Not a single one.
Re:I wish GPT4 had never happened by philipkglass on Saturday April 08, 2023 @03:47PM (#35496917)
Progress is slower in the world of atoms than in the world of information. I watched the progress from the first DARPA Grand Challenge for self-driving cars (2004, no car made it to the finish line) to the Urban Challenge in 2007 (many cars succeeded in a much more complicated environment) and thought that self driving vehicles would soon be commercialized. But there are 10,000 "last 1%" cases left to handle and we still don't have good enough systems to replace truck drivers or cab drivers today. Replacing jobs like plumber or electrician looks even harder than self driving vehicles because it requires far more intricate physical manipulation and perception than driving on public roads.
Re:I wish GPT4 had never happened by sudosysgen on Saturday April 08, 2023 @03:58PM (#35496996)
It's fine to automate 99% of it if the 1% can be somewhat efficiently taken over by humans. LLMs suffer the same issues.
Re:I wish GPT4 had never happened by RecycledEle on Saturday April 08, 2023 @06:52PM (#35498438)
I think trades will be around for a century. The problem is dealing with crazy existing stuff, like houses that are not to code and have been repaired by the last 3 owners, all of whom made it up as they went. Good trades people are able to figure out what the last idiot was thinking, know how it is supposed to work, and can make it work (without callbacks) for a long time with minimal intervention.

I remember a college professor who cashed out his retirement in the mid-1990's to start his own online college. He went broke in less than a decade, and we still have not removed professors from the colleges.

As a teacher, I do think that ChatGPT will replace most textbooks and teachers, but I don't know how long that will take.