News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:How the World Is Getting Better by asmor on Friday April 07, 2023 @05:27PM (#35487186)
All these examples are on timescales of 70+ years. That's kind of meaningless to me, a millenial, looking at all wealth having already been bundled up. Living in cities or owning a house? Barely affordable, even with an average tech salary. I don't even want to assume how shitty things would be if I made below 50k like most of my peers.

You could make a very similar list focusing on income, cost of living and relative buying power on a timescale of 50 years or another on the environment on a scale of 20 years and both would be quite depressing.

It feels very "well actually" wishful thinking by someone well off enough to ignore all the cracks.

At least it doesn't feel quite as deliberately misleading as the Steven Pinker "we redefined the poverty line, look at all the poverty that's going away" slight of hand.

Re:How the World Is Getting Better by JumpCrisscross on Friday April 07, 2023 @06:35PM (#35487943)
> meaningless to me, a millenial, looking at all wealth having already been bundled up. Living in cities or owning a house? Barely affordable, even with an average tech salary

Well, you’re living. Without disease, war or famine. The world’s knowledge at your fingertips.

I’m about your age, and while there is a lot of work to be done, one of the most difficult hurdles to solving them is the nihilism and civic disengagement in our generation and industry. We’re sitting in a golden age of human achievement at the centre of the first world.

> could make a very similar list focusing on income, cost of living and relative buying power on a timescale of 50 years or another on the environment on a scale of 20 years and both would be quite depressing

Real wages have gone up over the last fifty and twenty years. Living in cities has become less affordable. But that you’re citing that as a standard of wellbeing, it’s a massive improvement from the post-War era.

Re:How the World Is Getting Better by uxcolumbo on Friday April 07, 2023 @07:35PM (#35488553)
What good is it when you have to perform one or multiple menial jobs every day just to exist. That lifestyle doesn't leave you with much mental energy at the end of a long work day to absorb and learn from the world's knowledge at your fingertips. Yes, some folks are probably able to pull themselves out of that situation - but those are edge cases.

On top of that the added anxiety people experience because of living paycheck to paycheck.

It's becoming more and more like in the movie Elysium - all the technological wonders are there - just not accessible to the poor.

Re:How the World Is Getting Better by JumpCrisscross on Friday April 07, 2023 @09:14PM (#35489360)
> when you have to perform one or multiple menial jobs every day just to exist

Again, you’re comparing this to a past where continuing to exist wasn’t a given.

Re:How the World Is Getting Better by __pache__ on Friday April 07, 2023 @09:35PM (#35489503)
> What good is it when you have to perform one or multiple menial jobs every day just to exist.

...???

> just not accessible to the poor.

Homeless have iphones. A technology a king wouldn't ever be able to make. Thank capitalism and go outside.

Re:How the World Is Getting Better by sriram_malhar on Saturday April 08, 2023 @12:08AM (#35490444)
I had to laugh at this. Spend a weekend at a homeless shelter to encounter a reality VERY different from yours.
Re:How the World Is Getting Better by __pache__ on Saturday April 08, 2023 @01:17AM (#35490764)
Huh? For all you know I'm homeless posting from my iphone.
Re:How the World Is Getting Better by tebs1200 on Saturday April 08, 2023 @04:40AM (#35491649)
Yep - Classic homeless person, telling everyone to thank capitalism.
Re:How the World Is Getting Better by __pache__ on Saturday April 08, 2023 @04:54AM (#35491689)
Classic homeless person is deranged or drug addicted. Again: maybe I'm on heroin, experiencing extreme bipolar disorder, and posting from my iphone under a bridge. Do not judge me.
Re:How the World Is Getting Better by vinyl7 on Saturday April 08, 2023 @12:14AM (#35490465)
Sometimes I think it might be better to be dead than to live a miserable life
Re:How the World Is Getting Better by brailsafe on Saturday April 08, 2023 @07:42PM (#35498725)
Uh, no disease, war, or famine?
Re:How the World Is Getting Better by rufus_foreman on Friday April 07, 2023 @08:02PM (#35488799)
Homeownership rate in the US:

1900: 47%

1950: 55%

2000: 66%

2022: 66%

Re:How the World Is Getting Better by slaw on Friday April 07, 2023 @11:18PM (#35490173)
66% in 2022 are paid? No mortgage? How does that compare to 1900?
Re:How the World Is Getting Better by InspiredIdiot on Friday April 07, 2023 @11:24PM (#35490210)
No progress since 1980, unfortunately. Just oscillated a few points up and down from 65% https://www.census.gov/econ/currentdata/dbsearch?programCode...
Re:How the World Is Getting Better by latency-guy2 on Saturday April 08, 2023 @03:43AM (#35491414)
It's not an "unfortunately", the U.S. population has increased 50% since 1980, using US census markers ~226m in 1980 to ~331m in 2020. It's an amazing benchmark to be at the same ownership rate despite growing this much in such a short time frame.

Further, ownership going beyond certain numbers does not necessarily mean good either.

Re:How the World Is Getting Better by rufus_foreman on Friday April 07, 2023 @11:37PM (#35490285)
Is asking questions to nobody in particular that you can easily answer yourself your idea of an argument?
Re:How the World Is Getting Better by asmor on Saturday April 08, 2023 @02:23AM (#35491020)
Not in the US. I live here: https://www.bundesbank.de/en/publications/research/research-...

Keep in mind that the mentioned "social housing factor" does exist, but it is also almost entirely in the hands of Gen X and older because building social housing had already stalled by that time.

Re:How the World Is Getting Better by __pache__ on Friday April 07, 2023 @09:33PM (#35489495)
You need perspective my friend.

Imagine getting cancer 70 years ago. Imagine trying to find a song 70 years ago. Imagine trying to get directions, find a restaurant .....

Life is so much easier it's unfathomable, but you have to have gratitude.

Re:How the World Is Getting Better by ttymck on Friday April 07, 2023 @11:39PM (#35490298)
Thanks. I'll never own a home but at least if I get cancer I won't die. I'll just go bankrupt. At least there's no house for them to seize.
Re:How the World Is Getting Better by __pache__ on Friday April 07, 2023 @11:44PM (#35490329)
What are you talking about, of course you can own a home. Sorry government's manage markets terribly???

How much you make a year?

Re:How the World Is Getting Better by flangola7 on Saturday April 08, 2023 @02:06AM (#35490955)
Try owning a home on an average K12 teacher's salary.
Re:How the World Is Getting Better by __pache__ on Saturday April 08, 2023 @02:27AM (#35491043)
This is all a function of supply in a market. Harvard and more have done studies. The govt making loans basically free crushed the market, the solution is more housing.

K12 teacher should easily afford housing. Especially with a spouse and summer job, for crying out loud!

Re:How the World Is Getting Better by exolymph on Saturday April 08, 2023 @02:49AM (#35491144)
Bankruptcy is substantially better than death so yeah this seems like a win?
Re:How the World Is Getting Better by ttymck on Saturday April 08, 2023 @01:39PM (#35495700)
I don't think that's a universal truth.

I also don't think it's a tradeoff we necessarily need to make.

Regardless, I'd rather live happier for less time than longer in poverty.

Re:How the World Is Getting Better by __pache__ on Saturday April 08, 2023 @04:18PM (#35497192)
Are you happy now?
Re:How the World Is Getting Better by brailsafe on Saturday April 08, 2023 @07:37PM (#35498682)
* * *
Re:How the World Is Getting Better by brailsafe on Saturday April 08, 2023 @07:35PM (#35498669)
"Have some imagination" or some perspective is exactly what I'd tell anyone telling me the same.

Finding a song was just different and a leisure commodity, people are still buying records. Directions were a similar task 50+ years ago as they were in the 90s, not that challenging to live day to day without Google Maps.

I think those are all pretty lazy, very fathomable examples.

"Remember buying music on discs! So hard". No. No it wasn't.

Re:How the World Is Getting Better by fnordpiglet on Saturday April 08, 2023 @03:15AM (#35491271)
There was a brief time post WW2 in the US where housing was affordable. Prior to WW2 housing was extraordinarily expensive and people saved most their lives to buy a house, then lost it during the Great Depression. Most people lived in generational homes or were largely housing insecure. Most of the world never experienced the home glut we experienced in the US post WW2, that has tapered off in the last 20 years. However to be completely fair, we are only talking about a small number of cities on the coast that are unaffordable.

I also see this complaint from 2nd+ generation Americans. The 1st generation immigrant families I know save their money meticulously and end up buying one, two, three houses and renting them out. They do this amazing feat by saving almost all of their income and forgoing all luxuries for 10 years, then renting the rooms of the house they buy out, using the income to buy the second house that’s rented out, etc. They live a life of wise frugality, never drinking an espresso drink or watching Netflix, and scrupulously managing their income and savings - on accountant and K12 teacher incomes. The truth is you can buy a place for $700k in say Seattle for $140k down payment, which if you save 50% of your net income making a dual income of $120k/year takes less than 10 years.

Read the Jungle for a sense of what housing felt like pre-WW2. Compare it to what I described above happens today. Ask yourself what specifically is challenging you compared to other succeeding at it today and those succeeding at it 100 years ago. Maybe hold the post war era as a blip and outlier, and draw a line between you and the past without letting the outlier dominate your perception of your lot in life. Or move somewhere other than San Francisco.

Re:How the World Is Getting Better by asmor on Saturday April 08, 2023 @02:33PM (#35496208)
I don't know, could be all the people seeing housing as an investment rather than a basic nescessity.

Prices literally went up by a cool 100% or so over the past 5 years or so (if you account for the now ludicrous financing rates; 62% in raw prices) in Germany.

Housing in Cologne cost 3451 EUR/m² in 2017. We're currently up to 5508 EUR/m². Morgage rates went from ~1.2% pa to almost 4% pa over the past 3 years.

That's not normal.

Re:How the World Is Getting Better by fnordpiglet on Saturday April 08, 2023 @10:18PM (#35499527)
Housing has always been seen as an investment. Hence the idea of “land lords” and property owners being the wealthy, able to turn dividends from their property ownership. Mark Twain advised “buy real estate, they’re not making any more of it.” (N.b., never take investing advice from mark twain) what has changed is that real estate investing has become an anymans game rather than the elite. But the fact you can take your own capital and buy an asset (investment by definition) and that investment can be turned around and rented out to form a cash flow makes it a legitimate investment. If you think home prices are outrageous, then compare the rent rates vs the monthly mortgage rates for the same property. You should see mortgage rates are slightly higher because housing has an embedded utility as a basic necessity as well as a cash flow, but they shouldn’t be too far off. If mortgage rate >> rent, you’re in a bubble of asset valuation driven by speculation on home price appreciation - what you’re discussing - and you should stay away from buying as either rents will rise or prices will drop. If rent >> mortgage rates, you’re in a home price depression and smart money would be to buy or build houses and rent them out. Regardless, the ability to rent property you own is the fundamental driver of home price appreciation, not speculation that prices will continue to go up. In fact, given it’s a durable basic necessity that can be transferred without impairment after use (unlike food, which turns into poop) and at least retains value if not increase in value, I don’t see how it could help but be an investment.

Ultimately supply is the only way to decrease price.

Re:How the World Is Getting Better by asmor on Sunday April 09, 2023 @06:34AM (#35501421)
Supply? Like the thousands of vacant crumbling homes in Germany's most expensive city, Hamburg, that are essentially held by investors for the appreciation of land value alone?

Look, I know the economics. I don't like them. Fundamentally. Housing shouldn't be owned, at least not at scale.

My comment was mostly to point how how asinine your "if you are persistent you can do it" point is, being that both rent and morgages are skyrocketing. My rent got raised by 14 percent (it's coupled to inflation, that used to be a better deal) and you'd need about 200k/yr (pre-tax) household income right now to even get approved for a morgage here. It's essentially impossible for a working class person, unless you're on the top few percent of (labor based) income. And those people tend to have substantial capital too. Tech salaries don't scale this far here.

Re:How the World Is Getting Better by brailsafe on Saturday April 08, 2023 @07:30PM (#35498646)
Completely agree, being in the same or similar position.