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Re:Tesla removes parking sensors, the results are predictabl... by ssgodderidge on Monday April 03, 2023 @01:46PM (#35428191)
Yep. We need the electric equivalent of a starter car with good range and basic hardware. I'd take a car with roll-up windows, physical buttons, single A/C controls, 4 doors, 300 mile range, and a backup cam.

Would the masses take it? Who knows. But I'd be all in on that one.

Re:Tesla removes parking sensors, the results are predictabl... by selectodude on Monday April 03, 2023 @01:54PM (#35428388)
The majority of the cost of any EV is in the batteries. They make them faux-luxury to justify the price that they cost. A stripper EV is going to cost only a couple thousand less than anything out right now.

Maybe relax on the 300mi range and get a Nissan Leaf.

Re:Tesla removes parking sensors, the results are predictabl... by slg on Monday April 03, 2023 @02:20PM (#35428846)
It reminds me of housing which is in a very similar situation. Developers will often throw in something nice like a granite countertop and use that as justification for jacking up the price way beyond the cost of those additions because a majority of the cost lies elsewhere.

These luxury features aren't why these products are so expensive. They are thrown in to segment the market and make people feel better about spending this huge amount of money. There is no incentive for the people producing these products to remove these luxuries.

Soon the only option for people who can't afford or simply don't want to buy the new luxury product is to buy an old and rundown version of what was once a luxury product. New affordable alternatives just aren't as profitable so they aren't produced anymore in the quantities that we actually need.

Re:Tesla removes parking sensors, the results are predictabl... by rurp on Monday April 03, 2023 @07:41PM (#35433013)
Given that the govt already has a gazillion auto subsidies, perhaps they should do something to encourage an affordable no-frills EV with good range. I for one would pay more for a vehicle like that.
Re:Tesla removes parking sensors, the results are predictabl... by zamnos on Monday April 03, 2023 @07:46PM (#35433056)
I would too. The problem is, like the mini phones, there aren't enough of us, and the profit margin small enough (manufactures make more money on luxury vehicles), that automakers don't see a point. Add in a great number of safety regulations (eg mandatory backup cameras in the US since 2013, automated emergency braking (AEB) in the EU since 2022) which all bring up the price of cars, means that we're relegated to the pre-2017 used car market.
Re:Tesla removes parking sensors, the results are predictabl... by andjd on Monday April 03, 2023 @02:27PM (#35428943)
It is really hard to recommend getting a Leaf in 2023, at least in the US, unless you _only_ plan to charge at home. The Leaf still uses the Chademo plug, (I believe it's the last car sold in the US that does so) where as CCS is becoming the standard here. The Chevy Bolt is otherwise a similar car for a similar price.
Re:Tesla removes parking sensors, the results are predictabl... by ianai on Monday April 03, 2023 @02:09PM (#35428641)
My rav4 prime has a combined range well north of 500 miles and I need every bit of it-because I live in the sticks and we’re not to the point of being able to charge comparably. Something’s got to give.
Re:Tesla removes parking sensors, the results are predictabl... by TeMPOraL on Monday April 03, 2023 @02:17PM (#35428780)
> Something’s got to give.

Living in the sticks?

ICEs enabled housing sparsity, reversing that is part of the solution.

Re:Tesla removes parking sensors, the results are predictabl... by ianai on Monday April 03, 2023 @03:23PM (#35429833)
I’m guessing you don’t realize how offensive that statement is.

I’d like to know what percentage of GDP is done “in the sticks”. It’s one of the more viable ways to address NIMBYISM and locality problems.

Re:Tesla removes parking sensors, the results are predictabl... by selectodude on Monday April 03, 2023 @03:31PM (#35429964)
20 percent of the population, 10 percent of GDP. So the entirety of rural USA has a GDP 3 points higher than the NYC metro area.

https://www.americanprogress.org/article/redefining-rural-am...

Re:Tesla removes parking sensors, the results are predictabl... by bumby on Monday April 03, 2023 @03:50PM (#35430237)
A couple things:

That census definition of urban/rural is different from the colloquial definition. The census link allows an "urban" classification as low as 2,500 people.

Colloquially-defined rural areas have been decimated by globalization in the last 40 years. The "rural" area I grew up in had thousands of manufacturing jobs; now it may have 200. The drop in GDP goes far beyond urban sprawl enabled by ICE vehicles.

Re:Tesla removes parking sensors, the results are predictabl... by ianai on Monday April 03, 2023 @03:58PM (#35430372)
2000 is far far too low to declare things urban. That line should be drawn at least above 10k-20k, I think.

Also critical infrastructure is out “in the sticks” like dams, power infrastructure (lines/plants/storage), and the support of the container trucks. Then there’s agriculture. It all needs to be electrified and reachable by electrics.

Re:Tesla removes parking sensors, the results are predictabl... by rurp on Monday April 03, 2023 @07:46PM (#35433063)
I generally hate that rural areas are so over-represented in US politics but jesus, some of the comments in this thread are making me question that. There is some serious big city myopia going on here. Not everyone can and wants to live their entire lives in a dense city and that's perfectly fine.
Re:Tesla removes parking sensors, the results are predictabl... by scythe on Monday April 03, 2023 @03:39PM (#35430069)
It should be very possible in a decade or so to extend charging capacity to the boondocks. Just look at where we were ten years ago, versus today. In the meantime, if you can install even a slow 220V/12A charger in your garage, a PHEV should be quite effective.
Re:Tesla removes parking sensors, the results are predictabl... by ianai on Monday April 03, 2023 @03:48PM (#35430209)
Quite, it’s about a 90/10 split right now. 80/20 would really be something.
Re:Tesla removes parking sensors, the results are predictabl... by scythe on Monday April 03, 2023 @03:35PM (#35430016)
"Majority" is an exaggeration. Tesla battery replacements cost around $13-20k while the cars themselves go for well over double that.

https://www.jdpower.com/cars/shopping-guides/how-often-do-te...

The battery still drives costs to some extent, but the bigger issue is manufacturing capacity; you can only make so many EVs on the existing production lines (including battery factory capacity), and there's plenty of high-end demand to consume the supply, so you're not going to leave money on the table selling a cheap car.

People who want a cheap EV just have to do what every cost-conscious consumer does when a new technology comes along: wait. At some point there will be plenty of EVs for the PMC and it will make sense to build one for the rest of us.

Re:Tesla removes parking sensors, the results are predictabl... by bri3d on Monday April 03, 2023 @01:55PM (#35428409)
I think the big issue is that this hypothetical car would still cost $30k-$40k before tax benefits.

While I think plenty of buyers yearn for a "traditional" car, it's hard to justify one with the added base cost of electric. The Nissan Leaf got pretty close to this (albeit with less range) and while it sold OK, it was far from a barn-busting success.

The marginal cost of adding gizmos and gadgets to an electric car is not very high due to the large base cost sunk into the platform, so we get gizmos and gadgets.

Re:Tesla removes parking sensors, the results are predictabl... by bumby on Tuesday April 04, 2023 @10:02AM (#35439791)
>The marginal cost of adding gizmos and gadgets to an electric car is not very high due to the large base cost sunk into the platform

This may be plausible, but is there data to support it? Because, anecdotally, all the add-ons of "gizmos and gadgets" options can blow up the price. For example, a base F-150 is $43,325. The Platinum options package adds over $23k in just options.

I suspect the more likely culprit is manufacturing cost and efficiency. It just makes more sense to make electric windows the default when the majority of people are going to pay for them anyways.

Re:Tesla removes parking sensors, the results are predictabl... by optymizer on Monday April 03, 2023 @02:07PM (#35428609)
To me, rolling your windows looks as funny as cranking the engine. It's a simple motor that doesn't consume a lot of power as far as I can tell. It probably costs manufacturers $30/door for a huge UX improvement (at least for me), with no maintenance. It cannot possibly be the first thing in a list of conveniences to give up.

We have villages in Eastern Europe that don't have plumbing or gas, yet they have fiber optic cable and free and fast public Wi-Fi, so you see horse-pulled carts carrying villagers with laptops.

That's what I'd feel like in 2023 rolling my own window in an EV.

Re:Tesla removes parking sensors, the results are predictabl... by dingaling on Tuesday April 04, 2023 @05:17AM (#35437050)
Window motors require wiring looms through the hinge void, which can wear out, plus the motors, switches and a logic board to handle "one touch" operation. All cross-wired through the car so that the driver can command all windows.
Re:Tesla removes parking sensors, the results are predictabl... by andjd on Monday April 03, 2023 @02:16PM (#35428770)
I have the opposite complaint. I don't need 300 miles of range, 100 would be more than enough. I can rent a traditional car if I need to take a road trip. But I do want a nice interior, and other "premium" features, such as a heads-up display, lane keeping assist, 360-degree camera, etc.

For the car you're describing, check out the Chevy Bolt EV/EUV. It's the closest car to what you're asking for, although it doesn't have a 300 mile range. It may be hard though, Chevy is moving all they can make.

Re:Tesla removes parking sensors, the results are predictabl... by gnicholas on Monday April 03, 2023 @02:39PM (#35429140)
A used EV with a fairly depleted battery could work well for your use case. Only problem is that lane keep assist was pretty lousy in many cars until recently.
Re:Tesla removes parking sensors, the results are predictabl... by paxys on Monday April 03, 2023 @01:49PM (#35428277)
There are plenty of them out there if you are willing to give up the Tesla brand. Look up the Nissan Leaf, Volkswagen ID.4 or Chevy Bolt.
Re:Tesla removes parking sensors, the results are predictabl... by ladberg on Monday April 03, 2023 @01:54PM (#35428377)
Unfortunately the ID.4 is a bit too techified for my taste. The smart system to control windows and mirrors crashed while driving on the highway once, closing the mirrors inwards so I couldn't use them and stopping me from rolling down the windows.
Re:Tesla removes parking sensors, the results are predictabl... by BryantD on Monday April 03, 2023 @01:54PM (#35428387)
I love my ID.4 very much but it is not the entry level EV described at 40K and up. The Leaf and the Chevy Bolt clock in at under 30K which is much closer.
Re:Tesla removes parking sensors, the results are predictabl... by FireBeyond on Monday April 03, 2023 @02:13PM (#35428718)
Neither is the Model 3, either, which is the point of comparison. The Model 3 will still set you back a minimum of $47K (plus taxes, title, yada yada).
Re:Tesla removes parking sensors, the results are predictabl... by BryantD on Monday April 03, 2023 @03:08PM (#35429604)
I agree. The ID.2 and ID.1 are the likely entrants in the cost category we’re talking about.
Re:Tesla removes parking sensors, the results are predictabl... by paxys on Monday April 03, 2023 @02:20PM (#35428842)
Not entry level, but still a very attractive price when compared to Model X, Model Y and the equivalent segment.
Re:Tesla removes parking sensors, the results are predictabl... by trilbyglens on Monday April 03, 2023 @01:57PM (#35428440)
Was going to post about Volkswagen and škoda!
Re:Tesla removes parking sensors, the results are predictabl... by nyargh on Monday April 03, 2023 @02:07PM (#35428603)
The Renault Zöe is a good contender too
Re:Tesla removes parking sensors, the results are predictabl... by rnk on Monday April 03, 2023 @08:50PM (#35433536)
Almost anything but the leaf. Doesn't charge much. Terrible battery lifetime because they don't have a battery management system (heat/cool the battery). Only charges with chademo, not ccs, 50kw. They are cheaper. Buy the chevy bolt, that's the best starter/low end basic car.
Re:Tesla removes parking sensors, the results are predictabl... by lnsru on Monday April 03, 2023 @01:57PM (#35428448)
Real 300 winter miles range means paper 400+ miles WLTP. And this is where expensive cars start. Real 300 kilometers look better, but still doable with rather expensive cars.
Re:Tesla removes parking sensors, the results are predictabl... by greedo on Monday April 03, 2023 @04:59PM (#35431197)
Yeah, I considered a Model Y last year, but the range in winter for EVs is a non-starter for me. People don't realize how significant a drop in range occurs in cold weather.
Re:Tesla removes parking sensors, the results are predictabl... by rnk on Monday April 03, 2023 @08:53PM (#35433566)
Depends on how cold, and if you set your car to charge and warm up the battery before you leave. I have 10 years of driving to ski areas around the PNW. It's never mattered that much. But it doesn't get that cold here either. Parking it at a hotel where the high was 25 degrees did seem to reduce range a little, but not enough to matter.

But there are stories of people driving them in below 0 F where if you don't warm it up in the morning (via setting the leave time when charging) they have real loss. This is another area tesla is way ahead, with the battery mgmt system working better in the cold, plus the heat pump. People in cold Quebec also suffer this cold weather.

Re:Tesla removes parking sensors, the results are predictabl... by greedo on Monday April 03, 2023 @09:31PM (#35433828)
I live in the central Plains. It's normal for many days between Dec 1 and Feb 1 to be below 32ºF, and not unusual at all to be subzero in the day time. Even prewiring the battery won't help as much as you imply. Sure Tesla may be better than competitors at battery management, but that doesn't mean the battery life is any good in this type of weather. If your "normal" range is 300m, but drops to 180 in cold weather, then it dramatically affects your route planning since you'll need to recharge far more often. And while there are Superchargers in the Midwest, there aren't that many.
Re:Tesla removes parking sensors, the results are predictabl... by JohnFen on Monday April 03, 2023 @01:48PM (#35428252)
I'd take it. I wouldn't even need the A/C, as I live in a part of the country where it wouldn't get used more than a week or two in the year anyway.
Re:Tesla removes parking sensors, the results are predictabl... by kube-system on Monday April 03, 2023 @01:54PM (#35428385)
If it has a heat pump, which I argue it should, ”AC” is basically free.
Re:Tesla removes parking sensors, the results are predictabl... by hangonhn on Monday April 03, 2023 @01:55PM (#35428412)
Isn't that basically a Chevy Bolt? It's ridiculously good on value/price.
Re:Tesla removes parking sensors, the results are predictabl... by burkaman on Monday April 03, 2023 @01:56PM (#35428417)
I don't think that quite exists, but the Chevy Bolt has good range, is the same price as like a Honda Accord, and everything critical has physical buttons.
Re:Tesla removes parking sensors, the results are predictabl... by jvanderbot on Monday April 03, 2023 @01:49PM (#35428270)
Sign me up. I hate everything about my Tesla except the drive.
Re:Tesla removes parking sensors, the results are predictabl... by izacus on Monday April 03, 2023 @02:12PM (#35428702)
In Europe, Renault Zoe is quite popular as just that.
Re:Tesla removes parking sensors, the results are predictabl... by detritus on Monday April 03, 2023 @01:48PM (#35428237)
Count me in for one of those too.
Re:Tesla removes parking sensors, the results are predictabl... by garyfirestorm on Monday April 03, 2023 @02:00PM (#35428479)
Look into Toyota bZ4x
Re:Tesla removes parking sensors, the results are predictabl... by TremendousJudge on Monday April 03, 2023 @02:14PM (#35428725)
Surprised the Chinese automakers haven't been mentioned. BYD is currently the world's largest EV seller. The Dolphin for example is exactly what you mention -- as basic an EV can get, and probably as cheap as it can get as well.
Re:Tesla removes parking sensors, the results are predictabl... by slaw on Monday April 03, 2023 @03:19PM (#35429756)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BYD_Dolphin

AUD$35,000 for small subcompact is not cheap.

Re:Tesla removes parking sensors, the results are predictabl... by TremendousJudge on Monday April 03, 2023 @04:26PM (#35430772)
Yeah I don't think it's cheap in absolute terms, just that it's probably as cheap as you can get it right now. I don't think they have left any corners uncut with that car.
Re:Tesla removes parking sensors, the results are predictabl... by hanniabu on Monday April 03, 2023 @02:04PM (#35428544)
> physical buttons

I'd pay extra for that

Re:Tesla removes parking sensors, the results are predictabl... by bmelton on Monday April 03, 2023 @03:26PM (#35429879)
Citroen seems to be the closest to making these a reality. The Ami and Oli are wild, weird, but absurdly practical starter cars marketed to a slightly-more-sophisticated-than-starter-car demographics.

The Oli is especially impressive in that they've learned that you can sacrifice battery capacity, and if you just keep the car lightweight and aerodynamic enough, you can still get decent range. They're claiming a (pretty phenomenal) 6.2 miles per kWh, and for a car targeting a price point starting at $20k that offers the utility of a small city car, SUV, and pickup truck in a single vehicle, I find it compelling, even as the sort of person for whom this is the least viable car.

And if $20k sounds like too much, the Ami is less impressive, but I think starts at closer to $10k.