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Re:iAPX432: Gordon Moore, Risk and Intel’s Super-CISC Failure by panick21_ on Sunday April 02, 2023 @05:01PM (#35415163)
Not adding tagging is basically a negligence crime. That feature isn't that expensive and it could have saved most of the security issues that have happened to last 20+ years.
Re:iAPX432: Gordon Moore, Risk and Intel’s Super-CISC Failure by Lammy on Sunday April 02, 2023 @05:14PM (#35415299)
NSA et al probably like better it that way so they have easier access to the "'intel' inside" my PC.
Re:iAPX432: Gordon Moore, Risk and Intel’s Super-CISC Failure by panick21_ on Sunday April 02, 2023 @08:00PM (#35416776)
That's an incredibly bad argument because these are the same computer the NSA and the US govenrment itself uses and they are exposing themselves. Not to mention all the US company who are subject to intellectual property theft and so on.
Re:iAPX432: Gordon Moore, Risk and Intel’s Super-CISC Failure by gumby on Sunday April 02, 2023 @08:38PM (#35417068)
Unfortunately the Information Assurance art of NSA’s mission seems to have diminished dramatically in the 21st century.

But your point still stands about in house use.

Re:iAPX432: Gordon Moore, Risk and Intel’s Super-CISC Failure by aardvark179 on Sunday April 02, 2023 @07:00PM (#35416225)
I think you are talking about different types of tagging. Tagging on Lisps and other language VMs is where some bits in a pointer are reserved to indicate the type. So with a single tag bit integers might be marked as type 0 (so you don’t need to shift things when doing arithmetic) and other objects would be type 1. This provides no real protection against malicious code at all. There are other types of pointer tagging that do provide security, and we are starting to see some support in hardware.
Re:iAPX432: Gordon Moore, Risk and Intel’s Super-CISC Failure by panick21_ on Sunday April 02, 2023 @07:37PM (#35416596)
Its the same basic concept you can use in multiple ways. But yeah of course security was not what tagging was used.
Re:iAPX432: Gordon Moore, Risk and Intel’s Super-CISC Failure by astrange on Monday April 03, 2023 @01:20AM (#35418848)
Intel does have a pointer tagging feature called Linear Address Masking. Why it's called that I don't know.

(On ARM it's called TBI/top byte ignore, on AMD it's called UAI/upper address masking.)

This is different from pointer signing which it doesn't have.

Re:iAPX432: Gordon Moore, Risk and Intel’s Super-CISC Failure by Taniwha on Monday April 03, 2023 @02:24AM (#35419280)
It depends - at the time capability machines were all the rage - the idea there is that you add EXTRA bits to memory (say 33-bit or 34-bit memory - Burroughs large systems were 48-bit machines with 3-bit tags - plus parity) with careful rules about how they could be made, so that pointers could not just be created from integers.

At the time memory was really expensive so blowing lots of bits on tags was a real issue (late 70s we bought 1.5Mb of actual core for our Burroughs B6700 for $1M+) plus as memory moved onto chips powers of two became important, getting someone to make you a 34-bit DRAM would be hard, much less getting a second source as well

Re:iAPX432: Gordon Moore, Risk and Intel’s Super-CISC Failure by kjs3 on Monday April 03, 2023 @11:55AM (#35425966)
"powers of two became important, getting someone to make you a 34-bit DRAM would be hard, much less getting a second source as well".

I have several pounds of 9-bit memory. It's 'parity' memory, was fairly common back in the day, and adding another bit just means respinning the simm carrier to add a pad for another chip. Of course, I don't know if anyone is making 1- or 4-bit DRAMS any more, so you might be stuck adding a 8-bit or larger additional chip. Memory is probably cheap enough now if you wanted 34 bits to play with and were somehow tied to larger power-of-two, you could just go to 40 or more bits and do better ECC or more tag space or just call the top 6 'reserved' or something. It's a solvable problem.

Re:iAPX432: Gordon Moore, Risk and Intel’s Super-CISC Failure by kjs3 on Monday April 03, 2023 @02:59PM (#35429482)
Edit: Should have said "x-bit wide memory" everywhere above.
Re:iAPX432: Gordon Moore, Risk and Intel’s Super-CISC Failure by Taniwha on Tuesday April 04, 2023 @05:54AM (#35437266)
I have built CPUs with 9-bit bytes (because of subtle MPEG details), they made sense at the time and ram with 9-bit bytes was available at a reasonably low premium - that probably wasn't true when the 432 was a thing, RAM was so much more expensive back then.

You could get special sized DRAM made for you, it wouldn't be cheap, getting a second source even more expensive - you'd have to be an Intel, IBM or someone of that size to guarantee large enough volumes to get DRAM manufacturers to bite

Re:iAPX432: Gordon Moore, Risk and Intel’s Super-CISC Failure by kjs3 on Tuesday April 04, 2023 @10:43AM (#35440433)
If you'll notice, memory is often made on a carrier (e.g. SIMM module). So you don't have to find someone to make you a x9 or x34 or whatever bit wide chip; you find someone to make a carrier out of off the shelf parts with enough chips for your word width (possibly burning some bits). Early 9-bit SIMMs had 2 4-bit wide DRAMS and 1 1-bit wide DRAM. Just need a memory controller that makes sense of it.
Re:iAPX432: Gordon Moore, Risk and Intel’s Super-CISC Failure by Taniwha on Thursday April 06, 2023 @11:28PM (#35477694)
(I design memory controllers ....) you can sort of do that depending on where your byte boundaries are (and whether your architecture needs to be able to do single byte writes to memory) - more though I was trying to point out that historically just 'burning some bits' was not something you could practically do cost wise (it's why we built a 9/72/81-bit CPU in the 90s rather than a 16/125/128 one - the system cost of effectively doubling the memory size would not have made sense)

These days (and actually in those days too) memory isn't really the size of the memory bus, often it's a power of two multiple - those 9-bit RAMBUS drams we were using really moved data on both edges of a faster clock - our basic memory transfer unit was 8 clock edges x 9 == 72 bits per core clock - as a designer with even 1 DRAM out there that's the minimal amount you can deal with and you'd best design to make the most of it

Re:iAPX432: Gordon Moore, Risk and Intel’s Super-CISC Failure by kjs3 on Friday April 07, 2023 @11:49PM (#35490358)
My point was there was more than one way of solving the problem (economically optimized or not), and having custom width memory silicon wasn't the only answer. But sure, if you move the goalpost around enough you get to be right.