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Re:A surprising food may have been a staple of the real Pale... by ravenstine on Wednesday March 29, 2023 @10:37AM (#35357923)
Why subscribe to the endurance running hypothesis, though? There are no contemporary examples of humans hunting that way, and hominids were already making tools by the time they had developed to subsist on meat. The endurance/persistence hypothesis doesn't even make sense without tools like spears, knives, or arrows, because humans don't kill their prey by biting into them. If they had access to primitive weaponry, why would they waste energy running when they could instead ambush? Even other species like chimps and dolphins, that can't chuck spears, hunt by surrounding their prey. The only reason the hypothesis is even a thing is because people find it confusing that we sweat so much.

If anything, the persistence running hypothesis in some way discredits the idea that hominids relied on rotten meat. If they could catch fresh prey, why eat spoiled meat? Yet our stomach acid has a very low pH, more acidic than even that of cats.

What's more likely, in my opinion, is hominids began to supplement their diet by eating the leftover kills of larger predators as well as any rotting carcasses they may have encountered, and then developed hunting strategies around when they began developing tools. Even having sharp knives made of stone or volcanic glass would have been an obvious advantage in food procurement, and it wouldn't have taken millions of years to figure out that slashing an animal's throat in the right place would take it down quickly. No need for persistence running at all if a group can corner a mammoth or buffalo or lead it to a dead end.

Re:A surprising food may have been a staple of the real Pale... by walkhour on Wednesday March 29, 2023 @10:51AM (#35358114)
> There are no contemporary examples of humans hunting that way.

There are some examples [0], although admittedly they are isolated cases.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persistence_hunting

Re:A surprising food may have been a staple of the real Pale... by mhb on Wednesday March 29, 2023 @03:35PM (#35362158)
Running After Antelope: Scott Carrier's story of trying for twelve years to chase down and catch an antelope by foot.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35362140

Re:A surprising food may have been a staple of the real Pale... by burkaman on Wednesday March 29, 2023 @03:39PM (#35362236)
This is an unusually poorly written Wikipedia article with a very weird style and a lot of unsourced statements. I would be very hesitant to trust it without extensively reading the sources.
Re:A surprising food may have been a staple of the real Pale... by dmm on Wednesday March 29, 2023 @11:47AM (#35358955)
In her book "The Old Way", Elizabeth Marshall Thomas describes the Kalahari San who she lived with in the 1950s. Despite having bows and arrows some members of that group would persistence hunt.

Dmitriy Lykov(1940-1981) of the Lykov family living an isolated life in Siberia developed a method of persistence hunting, despite or perhaps because of, the absence of any sort of hunting culture in his tiny, isolated group.

Those are just two very recent examples off the top of my head of people persistence hunting for survival. Maybe you're out of your depth on this subject.

Re:A surprising food may have been a staple of the real Pale... by trws on Wednesday March 29, 2023 @12:06PM (#35359226)
In addition to the direct persistence hunting, also note that most bow and arrow hunting or even spear hunting is, in and of itself, a form of persistence hunting. The expectation that an arrow will take down the animal where it is hit is usually not how it would have worked with more primitive bows except with very small game. The animal would still have to be followed and possibly struck more times to actually bring it down. Bull fighting is a modern extension of this, though in an enclosed space.
Re:A surprising food may have been a staple of the real Pale... by precompute on Wednesday March 29, 2023 @02:59PM (#35361647)
Some tribes in Africa also drink milk mixed with animal blood. Not enough water to go around.
Re:A surprising food may have been a staple of the real Pale... by jodrellblank on Wednesday March 29, 2023 @07:32PM (#35365451)
(Off topic)

“despite or perhaps because of, sucks” - https://idlewords.com/2003/04/despite_or_perhaps_because_of_...

Re:A surprising food may have been a staple of the real Pale... by FrustratedMonky on Wednesday March 29, 2023 @02:39PM (#35361373)
While it is true that there are no contemporary examples of humans hunting with endurance running, it is important to remember that our ancestors lived in a very different environment than we do today. In the savannahs of Africa, where early hominids evolved, large game animals were much more abundant and competition with other predators was fierce. It is possible that our ancestors developed the ability to run long distances as a means of chasing prey until it became exhausted, allowing them to deliver a killing blow with a weapon or their bare hands.

Additionally, while it is true that hominids were making tools by the time they developed to subsist on meat, it is important to remember that the development of technology is a gradual process. It is possible that early hominids were using simple tools like rocks to scavenge for meat before developing more sophisticated weapons like spears and knives.

As for the argument that hominids wouldn't waste energy running if they had access to primitive weaponry, it is important to remember that hunting strategies are often shaped by a variety of factors, including the behavior of the prey species and the environment in which the hunt takes place. In some cases, chasing prey over long distances may have been the most effective strategy available to our ancestors.

Finally, while it is true that the low pH of our stomach acid suggests that our ancestors were not relying on rotten meat as a primary food source, it is important to remember that scavenging for meat was likely an important part of their diet. It is also possible that the ability to run long distances gave our ancestors an advantage in scavenging for meat, as they could cover greater distances in search of carrion.

In conclusion, while the persistence running hypothesis may not be the only explanation for how early hominids acquired meat, it is a compelling hypothesis based on a range of biological and anthropological evidence. It is important to consider multiple hypotheses when trying to understand the behavior of our ancestors, and to remain open to new evidence and alternative interpretations.

Re:A surprising food may have been a staple of the real Pale... by senko on Wednesday March 29, 2023 @03:01PM (#35361688)
Good GPT.
Re:A surprising food may have been a staple of the real Pale... by FrustratedMonky on Wednesday March 29, 2023 @03:37PM (#35362196)
Yes. Know it is rude (is it impolite to use GPT?), but I've been playing with GPT and thought I'd give it a shot to see if anyone noticed, or if HN had any detection.
Re:A surprising food may have been a staple of the real Pale... by ravenstine on Wednesday March 29, 2023 @03:11PM (#35361818)
Certainly seems like it.

Whether it's GPT or a human, this is wrong:

> Finally, while it is true that the low pH of our stomach acid suggests that our ancestors were not relying on rotten meat as a primary food source, it is important to remember that scavenging for meat was likely an important part of their diet. It is also possible that the ability to run long distances gave our ancestors an advantage in scavenging for meat, as they could cover greater distances in search of carrion.

The point I was making was that our ancestors were relying on scavenged, and probably spoiled meat.

Re:A surprising food may have been a staple of the real Pale... by bernawil on Wednesday March 29, 2023 @03:39PM (#35362226)
this somehow always comes up when anybody mentions human sweating or how good we are walking large distances. But whoever thinks it's feasible to hunt any animal worth its calories just jogging behind it has never chased a playful dog. A furry mammal with no sweat glands has way more endurance than any fit man and let's not talk about top speed. You'd never catch it.
Re:A surprising food may have been a staple of the real Pale... by SketchySeaBeast on Wednesday March 29, 2023 @05:11PM (#35363729)
Plus, now you're exhausted and you've chased it for how long? If you've run for the last 18 hours exhausting the gazelle, home is now an 18 hour jog back the other way, and you won't be jogging, you'll be lugging a gazelle with you and you're already utterly exhausted.
Re:A surprising food may have been a staple of the real Pale... by mklepaczewski on Wednesday March 29, 2023 @05:39PM (#35364130)
Is gazelle able to jog for 18 hours in a hot day? Or even for 2 hours? Keep in mind that the predator chooses the prey. Humans didn't had to chase gazelles, they may choose something bigger and slower.
Re:A surprising food may have been a staple of the real Pale... by jrootabega on Wednesday March 29, 2023 @05:39PM (#35364129)
It would make sense to try to flank the animal and get it to run where you wanted it to.
Re:A surprising food may have been a staple of the real Pale... by pegasus on Wednesday March 29, 2023 @05:16PM (#35363792)
Why would you be in such a rush to return home?
Re:A surprising food may have been a staple of the real Pale... by SketchySeaBeast on Wednesday March 29, 2023 @05:24PM (#35363923)
Conceivably everyone you left at home is waiting for you and the meat.
Re:A surprising food may have been a staple of the real Pale... by pegasus on Wednesday March 29, 2023 @05:14PM (#35363770)
Not so: https://www.nytimes.com/2009/10/27/health/27well.html

"But when it comes to long distances, humans can outrun almost any animal. Because we cool by sweating rather than panting, we can stay cool at speeds and distances that would overheat other animals. On a hot day, the two scientists wrote, a human could even outrun a horse in a 26.2-mile marathon."

Re:A surprising food may have been a staple of the real Pale... by jaggederest on Wednesday March 29, 2023 @06:06PM (#35364489)
And we know because there are a number of "human versus horse" races over long distances that are occasionally won by humans. Generally the longer the race the more often humans win.
Re:A surprising food may have been a staple of the real Pale... by bernawil on Wednesday March 29, 2023 @06:35PM (#35364835)
> distances that would overheat other animals

what other animals? I used the dog example because it fits perfectly here: they don't sweat yet it's impossible to catch up to them if they are running away. Even if they overheat they don't just drop dead, they slow down to a human's walking pace.

And what about running animals that do sweat like horses? makes no sense. What makes more sense is to approach from multiple fronts and spear/arrow it down. Plus, all remaining hunter-gatherers hunt with the help of dogs. Sure, you do have to run, a lot. But the endurance side is the least important.

Re:A surprising food may have been a staple of the real Pale... by kirrent on Wednesday March 29, 2023 @07:55PM (#35365719)
You seem very confident that a human can't catch a dog on a hot day. I hate to be that person, but do you have a source for that?

I've gone running with plenty of different dogs in temperatures of above 30 degrees over the years. Smaller or stockier dogs (like a staffy) fade very fast. Within a couple of kms. Working breeds (retrievers/poodles/kelpies/collies) will leave you in their dust but this is why the endurance hunting hypothesis relies on efficient tracking while running. If they're running on the lead, especially when it's a bit hotter, they seem to lose it after about 10kms. On a cooler day these same dogs would leave me dead.

Re:A surprising food may have been a staple of the real Pale... by bernawil on Wednesday March 29, 2023 @09:52PM (#35366745)
of course I'm not talking about pugs. I mean dogs, average dogs, as a model for wild animals our hunter gatherer ancestors might have hunted long time ago.

Again I'm not saying it's "literally" impossible. Just not feasible. Actually, chasing an animal worth hunting to exhaustion sounds more like a feat of strength someone would do as a rite of passage. Something you could do once in a lifetime, rather than a reliable source of food.

Re:A surprising food may have been a staple of the real Pale... by PhasmaFelis on Wednesday March 29, 2023 @09:24PM (#35366497)
> what other animals?

As far as I'm aware, every land animal on Earth. (In hot weather. It's very different in the cold. Might also be different if it's very humid enough, so sweating doesn't work.)

> I used the dog example because it fits perfectly here: they don't sweat yet it's impossible to catch up to them if they are running away. Even if they overheat they don't just drop dead, they slow down to a human's walking pace.

For an hour or two, sure. Now try doing that for twelve solid hours, on a hot day in the open. The dog will collapse from heatstroke long before a fit, practiced human has to bow out.

Re:A surprising food may have been a staple of the real Pale... by NineStarPoint on Wednesday March 29, 2023 @05:29PM (#35363985)
Dogs also have unusually high endurance actually, some breeds extremely so like sled dogs (up there in the top three with humans and horses). In general wolves are already pretty high up there endurance wise, and dogs probably had an evolutionary incentive to be able to keep up with us better on top of that.
Re:A surprising food may have been a staple of the real Pale... by mklepaczewski on Wednesday March 29, 2023 @05:32PM (#35364038)
On short distances all dogs outpace humans. After an hour of running most dogs will just quit. On several occasions I had very hard time convincing various dogs to get off the ground after an 8-10km run.
Re:A surprising food may have been a staple of the real Pale... by bernawil on Wednesday March 29, 2023 @06:53PM (#35365024)
my point is, can a human reasonably stay within viewing distance from a dog that is running away from him? the dog can just run at top speed, gain some distance, take a little rest and maintain that distance at a comfortable pace.

I used to believe in the endurance hunting thing until I realized playing with my dog it didn't make sense. They DO get tired, but they take a 1 minute break and it's like they are back square 0.

For the record, I'm in shape and with a pretty light frame (181cm/70kg) and go for 10km/1 hour jogs regularly.

Re:A surprising food may have been a staple of the real Pale... by mklepaczewski on Wednesday March 29, 2023 @07:17PM (#35365300)
On a steppe? I think so, I don't see why not. An animal running at or close to top speed might only speed up its exhaustion - it's much easier to run 1km at a steady pace than to do 10x100m intervals.

Try to play with your dog for an hour at high intensity. If your dog belongs to a large or very large breed it'll get tired much more quickly than you - assuming you're in somewhat good shape.

I'm not advocating in favor of endurance hunting, I'm only stating that we can out-endure some large-ish animals.

Re:A surprising food may have been a staple of the real Pale... by exclusiv on Wednesday March 29, 2023 @08:29PM (#35366024)
Pretty sure this guy can catch your dog even if your dog was on cocaine, remained focus, and had someone feeding it water periodically:

[1] https://www.irunfar.com/aleksandr-sorokin-smashes-24-hour-wo...

Re:A surprising food may have been a staple of the real Pale... by mklepaczewski on Thursday March 30, 2023 @06:25AM (#35370518)
It's only fair to compare exceptional individual to an exceptional breed. According to Google Husky can run 240km in a day. Exceptional Husky might do much better. Average Husky will easily outrun most human runners.

Still, this is an exception to the rule - overall humans outperform almost all animals when it comes to endurance running.

Re:A surprising food may have been a staple of the real Pale... by PhasmaFelis on Wednesday March 29, 2023 @07:55PM (#35365712)
https://youtu.be/826HMLoiE_o

I think you're misunderstanding how endurance hunting works. There is no land-dweller on Earth that can outpace a fit, prepared human in a hot, dry environment indefinitely. Not even a horse; Google it. We're slow in the sprint, but we're monsters of endurance.

(By "fit" I mean "makes a living this way," not "jogs and hits the gym regularly.")

Re:A surprising food may have been a staple of the real Pale... by strken on Wednesday March 29, 2023 @09:00PM (#35366277)
Anyone who's tried to go for a significant walk or run with a dog on a hot day can attest that they don't handle distances and heats humans can. My brother once went on a 24km run in summer with our Labrador x Kelpie and had to stop 5km in and slowly walk back, because the otherwise very fit dog couldn't cope with the heat.

I have no idea whether that's an adaptation to endurance hunting or just to normal ambush hunting over long distances in the hot and humid African wet season, but it's pretty undeniable that dogs don't have more long-distance endurance than a fit man on a hot day.

Re:A surprising food may have been a staple of the real Pale... by kybernetyk on Wednesday March 29, 2023 @04:16PM (#35362815)
>If they had access to primitive weaponry, why would they waste energy running when they could instead ambush?

This is the main point why I don't believe in the endurance running hypothesis. Humans are lazy. Why would the opt to run for days over just waiting at the local watering hole for prey?

Re:A surprising food may have been a staple of the real Pale... by krona on Wednesday March 29, 2023 @06:04PM (#35364468)
> Humans are lazy

I don't think you realize how easy it is if you know how to track and jog for 2-3 hours for antelope, even less for cats. All you need is a club. 'Running' isn't necessary.

Re:A surprising food may have been a staple of the real Pale... by chimpanzee on Wednesday March 29, 2023 @06:08PM (#35364522)
Plenty of humans “run for days” for pure enjoyment. Not to say the ancients would be so foolish when energy expenditure is a concern. But run for days, for a purpose, with companions, releasing endorphins throughout, and then topping that off with a nice, rewarding meal full of fat and protein? I don’t see why not.
Re:A surprising food may have been a staple of the real Pale... by exclusiv on Wednesday March 29, 2023 @08:15PM (#35365893)
True but I watched some documentary where some westerner went to spend time with a tribe.

The tribe thought it was absolutely hilarious that he would get up early and just go run for fun.

Re:A surprising food may have been a staple of the real Pale... by throwaway290 on Thursday March 30, 2023 @03:48AM (#35369416)
Short-lived strategy. Animals are not stupid and learn to go to a different watering hole super fast.
Re:A surprising food may have been a staple of the real Pale... by djitz on Thursday March 30, 2023 @09:46AM (#35372624)
It’s not easy to stalk animals built to spot predators — especially in the terrain where I’ve seen modern persistence hunters.

Many watering hole types of animals also don’t just fall right over after being struck, particularly with a “rudimentary” weapon. Even if you get a decent shot off, you will still most likely be chasing it for quite a while. Not to mention the dangers of what’s hanging around, looking to take what you (hopefully) managed to score.

The odds were not in our favor!

Re:A surprising food may have been a staple of the real Pale... by daliusd on Wednesday March 29, 2023 @04:23PM (#35362934)
What is here then https://youtu.be/826HMLoiE_o ? Was this debunked as fake or something ?
Re:A surprising food may have been a staple of the real Pale... by hyperthesis on Wednesday March 29, 2023 @05:04PM (#35363621)
Attenborough, persistence hunt https://youtube.com/watch?v=826HMLoiE_o
Re:A surprising food may have been a staple of the real Pale... by mklepaczewski on Wednesday March 29, 2023 @05:19PM (#35363860)
> If they had access to primitive weaponry, why would they waste energy running when they could instead ambush?

Have you ever fought a dog, a deer or a boar? Fighting means wounds, possibly fatal ones. Spear or no spear, you're going to die in one of those fights. Running on the other hand is pretty safe and not that tiring, especially if you've been doing it for years and your weight is close to 50-60kg. Ability to sweat more should be even more advantegous in a warm climate. I sometimes run in 30°C for an hour / an hour and a half. It's hard, but you get used to it. I imagine most animals would just drop by that time.

Re:A surprising food may have been a staple of the real Pale... by majormajor on Wednesday March 29, 2023 @06:07PM (#35364506)
Would you want to chase animals you wouldn't want to fight? What if they turned around and tried to fight you? You have less tactical advantage than trying to hunt or ambush them with stealth, and if you turn to run maybe you get away but then you've burned up a lot of your extra stamina? Give me the bow and arrow or spears so I can wound the target before /while chasing it, vs just popping out and hoping it ran away from me instead of at me.
Re:A surprising food may have been a staple of the real Pale... by chimpanzee on Wednesday March 29, 2023 @06:18PM (#35364632)
Deer and such will not fight unless there are no options and it has the necessary energy and verve. Apart from immediate physical entrapment, they do not realize that they likely have no options in the long run (pun fully intended). So they run and keep running until they fall into the trough of low energy.

Not to mention, the first weapons would have been far more basic and require closer range than a bow and arrow or a throwing spear. So, to your point, early humans would have had to have taken advantage of the sickly or exhausted in order to avoid injury. With exhaustion occurring as a byproduct of the hunt, it would have been an “accidental” discovery.

Re:A surprising food may have been a staple of the real Pale... by snthpy on Thursday March 30, 2023 @03:17PM (#35377617)
> Why subscribe to the endurance running hypothesis, though? There are no contemporary examples of humans hunting that way,

I believe the Khoi in the Kalahari still hunt this way. I also thought that's one of the reasons we might have lost our hair and the way we perspire?