> If IKEA came out with an electric tuk-tuk for $4K I suspect the Big Three would lose their shit

Seems like they already exist (not from IKEA of course), but that sort of vehicle isn't allowed on the road in the US so I don't think the Big Three are too concerned.

https://www.aliexpress.com/w/wholesale-electric-passenger-tu...

Here’s a (4-wheeled) US legal microcar, max speed 25 mph and allowed on roads with speed limit up to 35

https://electrek.co/2023/03/22/wink-motors-test-drive-electr...

Wow what a great idea! This car kinda looks like they are using a Chinese partner to do design and/or creating the build process. Seems like this segment could really use a Tesla like competitor. There has got to be more they can do in that $9k budget to deliver the very best micro car. They can't possibly be squeezing out the best that the LFP battery can offer. I guess maybe their potential budget or scale is limiting what they can deliver to the market.

Maybe legally permitted but I can't imagine wanting to be in something like that on a major thoroughfare full of Hummers and Rams...

Yeah, I would think of it as closer to riding a bike than driving a car in that respect. People do it all the time but you want to be careful about route selection.

Well I wouldn't ride a bike on the sorts of roads I had in mind either (and I'm generally comfortable riding on busy roads, but only when there's enough dedicated space for bikes.)

That's what I mean by thinking of it more like a bike. Just because a road is legal to ride on doesn't mean I would want to, you have to take the scenic route sometimes. But at least you're not getting rained on, and you can haul a lot more groceries up a hill than I would want to while biking.

In the US, a 3 wheeled vehicle can be sold as a motorcycle and then the regulations are quite lax (though I think helmet laws might kick in). Look at a Polaris Slingshot as an example.

The Arcimoto FUV is a 3-wheel electric that's available in some states now. I'm not sure if there are some states where helments are required, but generally they aren't.

https://www.arcimoto.com/fuv

Aptera has been threatening to produce one for how long now?

I don't think most people are actually interested in a three wheel officially-a-motorcycle-but-effectively-a-tiny-car.

Speak for yourself, I've been in line for an Aptera ever since the solar reboot.

I don't drive a ton of miles, but it's over roads where a bike would be literal suicide. A performant runabout with a bit of cargo space is exactly what I want, and if it only needs to be plugged in a few times a year, so much the better.

I'm keeping the A-Team van for when I need to move minicomputers and their peripherals, but an Aptera could do like 95% of my driving.

Give me something more crashworthy like a VW Polo for the US market and I’m there.

Would an Arcimoto FUV work for you? Those are available now. (They don't have solar panels and probably have much worse aerodynamics than Aptera. On the other hand, I think Arcimoto has the right idea with front/rear seating rather than side-by-side.)

.....does it have... doors?

I'm gonna say no. I deal with months of snow and slush and a few miles of "70mph" (really 85+mph) highway.

I think they have half-doors now. It's kind of a weird thing not to have fully figured out at this point, but I give them credit for actually releasing a product and iterating.

I had a co-worker who actually put $1000 down on an Elio years ago, but as far as I know, they've never come close to making one. I'd be fine driving something like an Aptera, but I just looked and it's like $33K, so I'm not really seeing the savings. I'm also keenly aware that I'm not most people.

$33K is still cheaper to any comparable Tesla Model 3 at slightly higher expected range (plus the benefits of solar charging).

It's still more than a Chevy Bolt which looks like a regular sedan and not some retro-futurist science experiment to meld an airplane and automobile that you drive down the road.

Aesthetics are always in the eye of the beholder.

Personally, as a 2012 Volt owner I certainly wish the Bolt looked like a regular sedan. It's an ugly modern American "cross-over" (they like the weird ugly "EUV" term in marketing) that isn't a proper sedan in any classic sense but also doesn't commit enough to being a proper hatchback or a light truck enough to make sense for why it is so "cross-over" looking. To me it is a very ugly duckling with no true home in car fashion.

I like the "dolphin tricycle" look of the Aptera. But I suppose I also like retro-futurism and science experiments and in general cars that look like they would take off for the sky if not caged to the ground.

I'd drive an affordable electric car that looks like that, but it's a bit too "look at me" for my taste. A basic box on wheels with doors that moves from A to B is more my thing (I currently drive a Chevy Cruze). See also the Polaris Slingshot; I'm not trying to look like a superhero off on my way to fight crime.

As far as what I'd actually like, a Chinese maker already made it but I don't imagine it coming to the US ever - https://insideevs.com/news/614218/wuling-hong-guang-mini-ev-...

Or something like a Fiat 500 with a Cabrio top (they made a gas one, but not an electric as far as I know). Still a bit odd looking, but more cute than mean or science-experiment.

I've fallen in love with videos of a lot of Chinese sedans. I very seriously think that if import tariffs get worked out and the Chinese EV companies make a serious effort, they have a ripe opportunity to blow up in the US market the way that the Korean sedans did for Gen X and the Japanese sedans did for the Boomers.

(That's such a dumb cycle: Americans forget that they love sedans until an importer starts importing them in bulk. The importer themselves forget Americans love sedans and move on to trucks/SUVs like everyone else. Some new importer needs to come along to disrupt the market again.)

(Related to that, I also fell in love with the Honda e and knew that to be futile love because Honda of America is a truck company.)

For short range urband deliveries in London, in seeing small 4 wheeled electric vehicles that are technically bicycles. This had the advantage that they can use cycle paths, so not need insurance, driving licence, or to any design validation.

The most popular EV car in China is a Hongguan MinI, only $4k or so. Completely road legal in China.

Made EU legal it's €13K (https://nikrob.uk/).

There are 12 year old kids driving "golf carts" all over my neighborhood streets.

These exist in Europe, for example the Citroen Ami[0] which is about 8000 euros or Renault Twizy[1] which is 12k euros. There are cheaper vehicles like this but I can't remember them offhand. You see these kind of micro EVs in every town basically, pretty sweet.

[0] https://www.citroen.fr/ami

[1] https://www.renault.fr/vehicules-electriques/twizy.html

Getting a driver’s license in France is significantly more difficult than the US. But there’s a hack in that younger kids can drive these smaller cars with an easier to get license.

Oh, is that why I felt like drivers in France are the best I've encountered? I've driven a couple tens of thousands of km's there in total (both city and country) and been regularly impressed by the responsible and conscientious driving in comparison to anywhere else I've driven (17 countries total now). Maybe a bit too much tailgating though if you're not driving "fast enough" on those single-lane country roads, but otherwise great driving skill IMO.

In most of Europe we require drivers to take both classroom training, practical training and to pass both a classroom test and a practical test before they can get their license. My impression of the US is that in most states you just have to show up and drive around a few cones on a parking lot to get your license.

In New Jersey, there is classroom training as part of school curriculum that is typically done in public school around the end of age 15 going into 16 (since people generally get a license while they are still in school). This training consists of teaching the material issued in this booklet[1] which is the official NJ rules and regulations for driving in the state. At the end of the training, there is an exam (typically computerized these days).

If you are past the age where you'd be in school, you can get the official state issued driving booklet and self study or you can attend a third party school which teaches the booklet. Either way you take the same exam.

Passing that exam entitles students to receive a learners permit that allows limited driving privileges (tags must be placed on the car indicating the driver is on a learners permit, restricted hours driving, must be accompanied by someone with a full license, etc.)

Permit holders must complete at least 6 hours of practice over a 6 month period under supervision.

After a year a driving test is conducted and that determines if you are eligible for a probationary drivers license or if you require more training time.

If you pass, you are upgraded to a probationary license. The probationary allows unsupervised driving but with other restrictions (time curfew) for 1 year. No incidents during that year allow you to graduate to a full unrestricted driving license.

[1]:https://www.state.nj.us/mvc/pdf/license/drivermanual.pdf

[2]:https://www.state.nj.us/mvc/license/youngadult.htm

> Oh, is that why I felt like drivers in France are the best I've encountered?

I want to hug you, how much has the world hurt you for you to think that? French drivers are terrible. Not the worst (they’re not italians, to say nothing of americans, or south-east asians) but they’re still really rather bad.

hahaha! really? It's purely my subjective judgement, but it may also have been pure chance/coincidence that I encountered good driving in FR compared to other countries. I mean in terms of actual driving skill like not doing dangerous/stupid things, driving with precision in difficult/complicated/narrow roads, anticipating risky situations or avoiding collisions, behaving respectfully/responsibly, appearing to be actually aware of what's happening etc.. In some places it felt like most drivers are basically asleep or barely conscious...

problem with these is that they are ugly but give something that look og mini or fiat 500 and can go 125km/h cost something like 8000 euros I would buy it immediately.

I think the transition to EVs has far more upside than downside, but weight (to your comment about "5-ton asphalt tanks") is a real and significant downside. Batteries aren't light!

If you want the opposite of a shitty 5-ton tank then check out the Aptera. Light, extremely efficient, and still fast.

https://aptera.us/

They're cool but no "workhorse". (I guess I'm channelling my proletariot roots — I want a "people's car".)

That would be a Chevy Bolt. Small but not unusably tiny, hatchback utility, good specs, inexpensive.

For anyone good with a two-seater, it seems like a people's car to me. Plenty of space for groceries, starts at $25K, exceptionally easy and cheap to charge at home, and committed to "right-to-repair," publishing all their manuals and selling the parts to anyone. It could be the modern equivalent of the original VW Bug.

Isn't $25k way too much for it to be a "people's car"?

If they can sell profitably at $25k they're ahead of the rest of the pack, and EV component prices are coming down every year.

Looking at the original prices and adjusting for inflation it looks like the Fiat 500 and the 2CV were about $10000, and the Type 1 Beetle was around $15000. So $25k does seem rather high for a people’s car.

I’m not sure the prices I found (450k lira, 350k francs, and 4000 marks) are all correct though.

Take gasoline savings into account and it gets closer (see my sibling comment to yours).

The cheapest new car in 2023 is the Nissan Versa for $15,730, but most of the ten cheapest cars are around $20K. [1]

The Versa gets 32mpg. The Aptera is the same basic design as their original diesel model which got 300mpg, and it's electric. It'll be way cheaper to run, it won't require as much maintenance, and you'll be able to do your own repairs.

The current US average gasoline price is $3.42/gal. [2] If you drive 32 miles per day, that's $104/month in gasoline with the Versa. Using LendingTree's calculator for a 60-month loan, $104/mo is worth a $5900 difference in purchase price, and that doesn't count maintenance savings. [3]

So yeah, by modern new-car standards I think it's about as close to a people's car as you can get. And batteries keep getting cheaper.

[1] https://www.hotcars.com/cheapest-new-cars-for-2023/#2023-nis...

[2] https://www.finder.com/gas-prices

[3] https://www.lendingtree.com/auto/calculators/payment/

The cheapest new car in 2023 is the Nissan Versa for $15,730, but most of the ten cheapest cars are around $20K. [1]

The Versa gets 32mpg. The Aptera is the same basic design as their original diesel model which got 300mpg, and it's electric. It'll be way cheaper to run, it won't require as much maintenance, and you'll be able to do your own repairs.

The current US average gasoline price is $3.42/gal. [2] If you drive 32 miles per day, that's $104/month in gasoline with the Versa. Using LendingTree's calculator for a 60-month loan, $104/mo is worth a $5900 difference in purchase price, and that doesn't count maintenance savings. [3]

So yeah, by modern new-car standards I think it's about as close to a people's car as you can get. And batteries keep getting cheaper.

[1] https://www.hotcars.com/cheapest-new-cars-for-2023/#2023-nis...

[2] https://www.finder.com/gas-prices

[3] https://www.lendingtree.com/auto/calculators/payment/

Funny how the people insisting on the "workhorse" thing in practice just take it on a clogged highway to go to work or to some fast-food drive through :)

The canonical example of automotive vaporware. All promises, no deliveries.

Those exist. Neighborhood electric vehicles have been available in the US for years and can legally be driven on many urban streets. The Big Three don't care.

https://ecofriend.com/5-neighborhood-electric-vehicles.html

The extra weight will significantly increase road wear, which is unfair because the road maintenance is paid by a gas tax, which EV drivers are not paying.

The weight of EVs has literally no relevance in the face of trucks, which everyone else subsidises. A loaded semi causes about 3 orders of magnitude the road wear of a large sedan, per unit of distance.

Semi's are doing a job, the same cannot be said of an F150 carrying 1 person to a Costco parking lot.

> Semi's are doing a job

Not in any way relevant either. Semis could “do a job” and be properly accounted for in infrastructure damage still.

Buying enough vehicle that even your exceptional use case for it isn't pushing the limit of what it's capable of is absolutely a hallmark of upper middle class/white collar consumerist culture.

A socially awkward teenager gets more ass than rear seat of your average HNer's 4Runner or Model 3. IDK why the internet always shits on pickup drivers.

Regardless, I don't think you understand how impactful "a couple orders of magnitude" are. Even the heaviest of light vehicles, like a Hummer EV are of negligible effect on a road that has to handle any proportion of medium and heavy truck traffic.

IKEA isn’t cheap any more and has been massively hiking prices like the rest of the world (while throwing in some artificial scarcity). It’d be more like $8k !

>With the price of modern automobiles you would think the industry was absolutely ripe for disruption. If IKEA came out with an electric tuk-tuk for $4K I suspect the Big Three would lose their shit.

Not gonna happen. Regulatory capture. And each line of regulation is backed by an ungodly number of people who will screech to high heaven if you even think about removing it. Like imagine for a second the vapid HN hand wringing and concern peddling that a headline to the tune of "NHTSA comprehending removal of backup camera requirement on some vehicles" would prompt. It's easier for the regulators, the analysts, the automotive companies, everybody, to just keep rolling with the status quo rather than amass the political capital to challenge it.

So long as society is rich enough to afford all the fluff cars will continue to have all the fluff.

> NHTSA comprehending removal of backup camera requirement on some vehicles...

My understanding is that NHTSA has a visibility requirement. You can make a car without a backup camera provided the driver can see behind them. Seems pretty reasonable.

Unfortunately we are in an arms race with the shitty asphalt tanks.

In most of the USA, trying to navigate the world in an electric tuk-tuk surrounded by enormous pickup trucks and SUVs with distracted pilots is basically a death sentence. If an accident doesn't get you, the apathy and road rage toward small vehicles will — they may shove you into a ditch simply for fun.