> Right now a base Model 3 is around $36k after tax credit

Not wishing to be obtuse, but is that good? There are a lot of people who would never dream of paying that much for a new car.

The average new car price is $49k. I can't find info on the median, and I'm sure that is before tax rebates.

> The average new car price is $49k

Right, meaning there are a lot of car buyers who pay less than that. In many cases a lot less. I'm one of them(!)

The last time I bought a new car I paid $11k, although that was around five years ago. Since then, over many tens of thousands of miles, that vehicle has transported our family from A to B and back again.

I'd love to own an EV, but I can't afford to pay a significant premium for one.

If you don't need the extended range of a brand new battery, I think you'll be able to pick up a used one for cheap soon enough.

My parents bought a Tesla a few months ago because their Leaf's battery life fell below the point where they could get to work and back reliably on a single charge and they spent months waiting for a battery replacement (they're still waiting). If their supply problems continue, people are going to start dumping more and more used electrical cars and going back to gas or to companies that can actually keep up battery supply like Tesla.

Used Teslas are already on the market. Theres a used 2012 and 2014 the next city over from me for $25k and $34k, respectively. Doesn't seem too bad for a car that was over $100k when it was new.

> Doesn't seem too bad for a car that was over $100k when it was new.

This vehicle segment has always been notorious for depreciation, look at all the stories about buying a used S-class "for cheap".

The YT videos of those are usually entertaining.

That still sounds steep to me. 10 years old beta technology in a category where technology has been progressing very fast so that new (<<$100k) models are far superior vehicles, not to mention the "beware the third owner hellkat" issue.

I could get a brand spanking new Prius for that.

Yeah but then have the issue known as "driving a Prius". Might not be a problem if you're in California. Hell that'll get you positive "saving the Earth" smug points. Elsewhere that might be an issue to be avoided at all costs though.

Prius is the most popular car for Uber, I don't think its virtue signaling (quite the opposite, if you happen to drive a Prius, people will just assume you are doing Uber on the side), just these people are trying to make money and a Prius is a good way to make Ubering cost effective.

I'd actually be quite happy to drive a Prius, I was just being hyperbolic. Some people are be afraid of being judged for driving for Uber and would reject a Prius for that specific reason. Mainly it's just that lets not pretend that an old luxury car, BMW or Mercedes or otherwise, and a new Prius are in the same market segment. They may cost a similar dollar amount, but they're bought by different buyers.

A Prius perhaps wasn't the most relevant comparison. I might have been letting my disdain for for fancy cars influence my argument. Maybe one of those silly sporty looking Camrys would be more appropriate haha.

That said, I wouldn't trade my Prius for a Tesla (well I would, but I'd then trade it for a new Prius). Whatever image they present, they're good cars.

Don't get me wrong, Priuses are good cars, just that they have a stereotype associated with them these days given how successful they are in the ride share and taxi markets. I hope Toyota makes a good economy EV soon, but they've been obsessed with hydrogen for too long.

The biggest risk with those is the battery pack. If they haven't had a pack replacement under warranty since ~2016, they will have a much higher than average failure rate.

Third party repair is ~5-20k + shipment costs. Tesla is ~15-20k.

> If you don't need the extended range of a brand new battery [..]

My OH drove the best part of 200 miles, round trip, on the spur of the moment to pick me up at an airport late in the evening after my flight was badly delayed, she got to the airport just as I came through baggage reclaim so was at the airport less than 10 mins. That was just last week. By sheer coincidence I drove to pick her up at the same airport the week before, although at least I knew that journey was coming ahead of time.

What do used EV owners with smaller and/or degraded batteries say to each other in that scenario? "Sorry, I can't come and pick you up, the car's not charged?"

A car that can't manage to drive to a local airport and back in one go is exhibiting a fairly critical flaw, at least for people like us.

>My OH drove the best part of 200 miles, round trip, on the spur of the moment to pick me up at an airport late in the evening after my flight was badly delayed[ ...] > A car that can't manage to drive to a local airport and back in one go is exhibiting a fairly critical flaw, at least for people like us.

Isn't this a standard trade-off? I have a sedan rather than a SUV or a pickup, and last year when I wanted to move some large items I couldn't. That's fine, because the other 99.5% of days I don't need that much capacity. Unless you frequently need to go on 200 mile trips on a whim, it's not as big of a dealbreaker than you think.

You can go to a supercharger after the first leg and spend 10-15 minutes there. It's really not the issue you'd think it is reading all the concern from people online. And Tesla batteries degrade much slower than you'd think based on experience with consumer electronics.

> It's really not the issue you'd think it is [..]

I appreciate that there are a lot of happy Tesla owners, indeed there are two in the office I'm working in this week, their Model 3s are parked outside. I had a ride in one recently, it was fun. Not something I'd buy, though.

Is it possible that EVs still aren't the good fit you think they are for a substantial proportion of price-sensitive consumers?

Also, the political landscape around EVs may still be evolving. This month the EU's policy to ban the sale of new combustion engine cars in the bloc by 2035 was substantially weakened after pressure from Germany[0], and the UK's policy is as a result - shall we say - "wobbling"?[1]

[0] https://edition.cnn.com/2023/03/24/cars/eu-combustion-engine...

[1] https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2023/03/28/net-zero-ban... or https://archive.is/R6zVZ

New bolt is what, 20k after incentive? I would assume in 5 years those will be cheaper used. No one is selling 11k gas cars worth a damn last I checked, either, there just isn't a huge supply of used electrics at the moment.

Not that I'm telling you to buy an EV, but EV's are like 6% of (new)sales this year iirc, I expect next year is 7-8%, then 9-11%? After 10% of sales and all the growth is in EVs I expect the market to change quickly, like gas car sales to just fall off a cliff as legacy automakers really start to scramble. Well, at least in the US, seems China has a much higher EV share.

Anyways, yeah, probably somewhere in the 4-7 year range from now, there will be some good options in cheaper, used EVs for people, and probably more than just the Bolt that has decent range at low end new pricing.

Until their a substantial used inventory and more deliveries, sure, EVs are not attractive to the people you refer to. At least in the US.

> Is it possible that EVs still aren't the good fit you think they are for a substantial proportion of price-sensitive consumers?

The reality is flipped around. The vast majority of consumers, even price sensitive ones, would be better served by an EV. The edge cases trotted out in conversations like this are the exception, not the norm.

It sounds like you do need the extended range of a new battery but aren't willing to pay for it. Too bad, then...?

That's why I added a conditional, because I can't read your mind.

> What do used EV owners with smaller and/or degraded batteries say to each other in that scenario?

I’ll be a bit longer that usual sorry. I need to fast charge.

Range anxiety is something you have before you get an EV in my extensive survey of 4 people.

That kind of job is not what you'd get a <100 mile car for. They replace commuters for people who never need their commuter vehicle to do that.

That's definitely not for everyone.

Even the smallest range Tesla, Bolt, ID.4, or many others would be fine.

Assuming the US market, what new car did you get 5 years ago for only $11k? That had to be the single cheapest new car in the country.

Used car market is for people price sensitive. EVs will trickle down to them eventually as new car buyers upgrade.

There are cheap EVs. The Bolt costs $26,500, and that doesn't seem to include a rebate. The Leaf is $28k before tax credits. Yes, they are nowhere near $11k, but I'm not sure you can buy much of a car at below $20k these days.

Most people looking at EVs though are more interested in the average rather than below average prices, so the EV market tends to gravitate to the $40k-$60k price range to chase that demand.

> Yes, they are nowhere near $11k

Except in Oregon! $7500 federal, $7500 state.

Tesla's Investor Day was mostly about the ways they're working on reducing costs. They won't get to $11K anytime soon, but they might manage $25K, and that's still in the low end of the market for ICE cars these days.

They could probably get there if they wanted to, but the profitability for them wouldn't make it interesting enough, and the low end, where it really sells (i.e. outside of the USA), is crowded by Chinese car companies.

In one of Sandy Munro's videos, he said he thinks Tesla can manage costs of $19K. The size of the market increases dramatically as you go down the price curve, which makes a $6K profit per car plenty interesting.

That certainly seems to be what Tesla thinks at least, unless they were completely lying to investors about the volume they hoped to achieve.

Why invest 200 million USD to make 1 billion when you can invest the same to make 10 billion? The problem is that expanding isn’t free, you take the most probable business first. The low end is growing rapidly, but the players already there will ensure that Tesla doesn’t make $1k of profit per vehicle. They can’t compete with a Wuling Mini EV for $4k, or whatever BYD has up to the model 3 price point.

I don't see many Wulings for sale in the US, and Tesla is selling plenty of Model 3 in China.

Tesla did take the most profitable business first. Now they're expanding to the mass market. You might disagree that it's the best strategy, but it's the one they're following; if you don't believe me, just watch Investor Day.

If I add up all the vehicles I've purchased in my lifetime, still not 36k.

It is what it is, I'm just pointing out the $65k quoted by parent as of November is not close to the price of entry for a good EV currently.