News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Nintendo's Wii U and 3DS stores closing means game over f... by asdff on Friday March 24, 2023 @12:04PM (#35291027)
What a shame the article spreads some fud about roms and diminishes the community, making it seem like a futile individual effort:

"In order to play a game on an emulator, you need a copy of the original title, commonly saved as a ROM (or read-only memory) file. Depending on how the title is copied, what the condition of the cartridge or game disc is in, or the geographic region the game is locked to, you can find yourself with a buggy version of Pokémon Crystal or Super Mario Bros. 3 that can hardly run. Creating and distributing ROMs is also fraught with legal issues."

Meanwhile, people have been distributing roms for 25 years, and the strength of the community ensures you don't get burned. Every game for every region has a rom already, for each game a few roms of "analytical grade" at this point, and its not hard to be pointed in the right direction these days. Sometimes the community even fixes bugs nintendo left in. Here is a handy key for the identifiers the community often annotates for their roms: https://gist.github.com/ramiabraham/ff41ba74f2b7104ecece

Re:Nintendo's Wii U and 3DS stores closing means game over f... by asveikau on Friday March 24, 2023 @12:19PM (#35291303)
With these sorts of actions by Nintendo, the idea of keeping ROMs as backup for your purchases gains legitimacy.

First party legit online stores for emulated classic titles could be a real disincentive to people playing on third party emulators, if they wanted it to be. But the fact that they'll shut off the stores means people will not consider those purchases to be stable. They'll turn to third party emulators and ROM dumps.

Re:Nintendo's Wii U and 3DS stores closing means game over f... by boomboomsubban on Friday March 24, 2023 @12:18PM (#35291287)
>Meanwhile, people have been distributing roms for 25 years

Almost exclusively illegally, hence the "fraught with legal issues." Downloading a ROM for a game you own on a cartridge violates US law. You need to create your own copy, where you very likely will face the issues they raise.

Or you technically violate the law, which NPR likely doesn't want to condone for a puff piece.

Re:Nintendo's Wii U and 3DS stores closing means game over f... by asveikau on Friday March 24, 2023 @12:24PM (#35291387)
> You need to create your own copy,

It's funny because custom electronics are way more cheap and accessible than they used to be. In the 90s, I wished I could dump my game carts and saves. I saw someone posted PCBs to do it over ISA bus but I didn't have the skills or ability to do it myself. Recently, I found this open project that can dump that era: https://github.com/sanni/cartreader

Re:Nintendo's Wii U and 3DS stores closing means game over f... by actionablefiber on Friday March 24, 2023 @01:22PM (#35292412)
One issue with dumping, even if you have the equipment for it, is that in some cases you will still need to patch it to defeat the copy protection.
Re:Nintendo's Wii U and 3DS stores closing means game over f... by asveikau on Friday March 24, 2023 @02:53PM (#35293807)
Those can be distributed as patches. This is typically how people distribute fan translations, for example.
Re:Nintendo's Wii U and 3DS stores closing means game over f... by jterrys on Friday March 24, 2023 @12:54PM (#35291924)
We live in a world where the common notion of buying something and owning it has been completely violated.

I don't "own" the movie, music, or digital media I buy, I am merely "temporarily renting it" through "licensing agreements". Yet every other physical good that I own, I perform a cash transaction of it and it is understood that it is mine. I can do with it what I want. I buy eggs at the store. I can cook and eat them or throw them out the window. Nobody cares. I own them. I bought them.

Only when my purchase is digital am I suddenly combated with "distribution rights", "reproduction rights", "rights to modify", etc.

The laws need to be changed, I tell ya!

Re:Nintendo's Wii U and 3DS stores closing means game over f... by jonathankoren on Friday March 24, 2023 @01:17PM (#35292321)
We've been burned by this repeatedly. Remember several years ago when people "bought" Disney movies on Amazon Video, and then Disney pulled their catalog, and everyone's "purchases" subsequently disappeared? Good times.

I thought that might be a catalyzing moment, but I've learned that literally nothing is a catalyzing in America. No matter the issue. No matter the act. Literally nothing changes.

Re:Nintendo's Wii U and 3DS stores closing means game over f... by mrguyorama on Friday March 24, 2023 @01:40PM (#35292736)
One half of politics makes "Nothing should ever change" basically their entire platform, and people LOVE it.
Re:Nintendo's Wii U and 3DS stores closing means game over f... by jonathankoren on Friday March 24, 2023 @01:44PM (#35292830)
This isn’t the time to politicize this tragedy. And it’s certainly not time to talk about the identical tragedy that earlier this year, or the identical one that happened last year, or the identical one that happened a decade ago, or the identical one that happened…
Re:Nintendo's Wii U and 3DS stores closing means game over f... by mattl on Friday March 24, 2023 @01:54PM (#35292990)
I don't think that's strictly true though... if you bought a Beatles' LP in 1971 you can't do what you want with it. There are still rules about what you can and cannot do with the reproduction of it.
Re:Nintendo's Wii U and 3DS stores closing means game over f... by bentley on Friday March 24, 2023 @01:56PM (#35293020)
There are basic, fundamental things you can do with a physical LP that you can’t with “licensed” bits.

For starters, you can resell an LP. Can you resell a music file?

Re:Nintendo's Wii U and 3DS stores closing means game over f... by mattl on Friday March 24, 2023 @02:02PM (#35293109)
Probably not from any of the big labels at least, so you couldn't resell your Beatles' album download.

Physical media makes it easier to do things but those same things aren't without issues just because they originated on physical media.

Re:Nintendo's Wii U and 3DS stores closing means game over f... by jterrys on Friday March 24, 2023 @02:48PM (#35293755)
Actually its the opposite. Digital media makes it far easier to copy, redistribute and modify, hence why there's so many restrictions placed on it.

If I wanted to sell my Beatles LP I could do it no problem, because reproduction of it (now bear with the metaphor here) is more difficult and time consuming. Hell, even bootlegging it (which is illegal) would be an order of magnitude more difficult because I'd need to set up the equipment to do it and there's a cost of of entry associated with that. Scarcity of supply affects demand yadda yadda.

Digital? Just a few clicks. That's their problem. The fundamental shift to digital media has removed all these barriers hence completely removing scarcity from the equation. They can't control the scarcity. They can't control their product. Once its out that's it and that makes it fundamentally "worthless" in their eyes. And so here we are with laws passed that try to fight the inevitable: helplessly maintain control of their withering walled garden.

Don't pity them. These motherfuckers don't deserve it. Not with how they treat their artists like cattle, or how they happily got away with printing albums with one good song and 13 dogshit tracks. Now they try to muscle in on live shows which are the only way artists make money.

Re:Nintendo's Wii U and 3DS stores closing means game over f... by xp84 on Friday March 24, 2023 @03:23PM (#35294180)
I'm sympathetic to this, I really am. But this has always been the case for IP, even in the analog era. If you carefully traced a painting to make duplicates, or re-typeset a book so you could make copies (say, a university that wanted to provide cheap textbooks for the whole student body), that was always in breach of copyright law.

The only thing that's changed is how easy it is to actually make the copies. It used to be a considerable to super-unfeasible amount of work for most of the things that were protected by copyright, and now it's laughably easy for almost every work.

From an ethics point of view that change alone isn't the justification we need for making a change. I think perhaps exceptions that honor the aim of preservation of culture, while still allowing IP-based business models to work, would be more defensible.

Quick example law: When any form of DRM is used in a product that is 'sold' (licensed) to the public, the company must provide to the Library of Congress an unencumbered copy of the software which will automatically be made publicly available after a fixed embargo of 15 years. This applies to both "games" and also to the firmware, so that the games can be played. A console, beginning 15 years after its launch, must be able to be made user-flashable to accept non-DRM software. (The means to do this would be required at the launch of the device, to avoid businesses dissolving before the 15 years elapses)

Re:Nintendo's Wii U and 3DS stores closing means game over f... by CobrastanJorji on Friday March 24, 2023 @01:18PM (#35292330)
One of the most fun small moments of my career was when I was working for a company that had licensed a bunch of old games. I had to download quite a few from shady warez/abandonware sites that put up a little "disclaimer" that said something along the lines of "unless you have explicit written permission from the copyright holder, do not download this file." I'm quite possibly one of the only people in history who clicked through on good faith, explicit written permission in hand.
Re:Nintendo's Wii U and 3DS stores closing means game over f... by jonny_eh on Friday March 24, 2023 @02:26PM (#35293460)
> puff piece

How was this article a puff piece? It's highlighting a large and growing issue around preserving our culture, often overlooked by the mainstream.

Re:Nintendo's Wii U and 3DS stores closing means game over f... by boomboomsubban on Friday March 24, 2023 @05:53PM (#35296164)
"Puff piece" may not be the best term, but I'd bet money this story was basically reporting on a YouTube video someone at NPR watched. A somewhat low stakes story that didn't want to dive into legal minutia.
Re:Nintendo's Wii U and 3DS stores closing means game over f... by PurpleRamen on Friday March 24, 2023 @12:43PM (#35291764)
> Meanwhile, people have been distributing roms for 25 years

And they have been successfully sued for it. So where is the FUD? People illegally share all kind of content, and sued for it, doesn't make it legal just because they do it.

> and its not hard to be pointed in the right direction these days

Maybe, if you need to get pointed somewhere, it might be because people are aware that they are doing something that is not without problems.

Re:Nintendo's Wii U and 3DS stores closing means game over f... by throwaway472919 on Saturday March 25, 2023 @06:51AM (#35301383)
People get sued and the sites might be hard to find for some, but I don't think buggy ROMs are really a thing. Buggy emulators maybe, but even then not for Pokémon Crystal.
Re:Nintendo's Wii U and 3DS stores closing means game over f... by billjings on Friday March 24, 2023 @12:55PM (#35291956)
For organizations like the Video Game History Foundation (https://gamehistory.org/) that are trying to preserve video games in an above board way, things really are as dire as this article describes.

For VGHF to fulfill its mission, it's just not enough that this work is done. "Nobody is prosecuting us" isn't a firm enough foundation for an above board, charity funded organization that makes this work legal and accessible.

Re:Nintendo's Wii U and 3DS stores closing means game over f... by actionablefiber on Friday March 24, 2023 @01:19PM (#35292361)
One consideration is that some games implement checksums and other copy protection measures to detect if they've been copied, and then refuse to run - or appear to run normally at first but sneakily punish the player. Preserving these games in a playable format necessarily means you have to defeat the copy protection. I have to imagine that it looks bad to do this even when you have noble intentions.
Re:Nintendo's Wii U and 3DS stores closing means game over f... by yurishimo on Friday March 24, 2023 @01:55PM (#35293014)
I think the number of games that include player punishment is astonishingly small. The more prescient threat is DRM and server only experiences.

So many games will never be experienced again after the servers are turned off. I think it’s the community’s job to lobby game publishers to release source code for games and severs if they are sunsetted forever. Convincing the corporate world to let go of IP before copyright expires will be tough, but we’re naïeve to believe that these companies will still have intact source code in 50 years. Hard drives fail, cloud buckets get abandoned and then the bill doesn’t get paid, etc etc.

It’s not looking super optimistic for game archival, but there is _a path_ forward to improve the situation.

Re:Nintendo's Wii U and 3DS stores closing means game over f... by MegaDeKay on Friday March 24, 2023 @03:17PM (#35294110)
> I think it’s the community’s job to lobby game publishers to release source code for games and severs

Very very unlikely (unfortunately), especially for outfits like Nintendo. As long as there are eShops and remasters, there is the opportunity to cash in on old IP. And getting source code for games is one thing - getting the assets are another. Even for the example of Doom that is everywhere, only the shareware assets were set free.

For consoles, emulation and reverse engineering are probably the best and likely only way forward IMHO.

Re:Nintendo's Wii U and 3DS stores closing means game over f... by coldpie on Friday March 24, 2023 @03:20PM (#35294147)
> I think the number of games that include player punishment is astonishingly small.

This is true, but they're fun to read about! https://tcrf.net/Category:Games_with_anti-piracy_methods

Re:Nintendo's Wii U and 3DS stores closing means game over f... by Aeolun on Saturday March 25, 2023 @07:58AM (#35301777)
> I think the number of games that include player punishment is astonishingly small.

I remember Game Dev Tycoon released a ‘hacked’ copy of their own game to torrent sites in which you’d always eventually lose due to ‘losing sales due to pirating’, but that’s the only instance I remember.

Did much older games do similar things?

Re:Nintendo's Wii U and 3DS stores closing means game over f... by goosedragons on Saturday March 25, 2023 @09:50AM (#35302616)
Some but it's pretty rare. Earthbound spawns more and more enemies when it detects a legit version isn't being played and will break on the final boss if you make it that far. It's a bit more common on home computer games I think because the barrier to copying a floppy or CD is much lower than a cart but it's still a lot of effort to add.
Re:Nintendo's Wii U and 3DS stores closing means game over f... by ajmurmann on Friday March 24, 2023 @12:59PM (#35292030)
Are the statements about the quality of the copy true as well? I had always assumed, it's digital, so it either works or it doesn't. I know there are problems emulating some games well, but I always thought that was because of shortcomings in the emulator or things like chips on the game cartridge that also need to be emulated.
Re:Nintendo's Wii U and 3DS stores closing means game over f... by wk_end on Friday March 24, 2023 @01:23PM (#35292436)
It's definitely overstating things. Bad dumps are possible and were somewhat common back in the day when people were spreading ROMs via GeoCities pages and Usenet, but these days databases like No-Intro and Redump have helped make sure that they're rare - you can easily verify your ROMs against known good ones.
Re:Nintendo's Wii U and 3DS stores closing means game over f... by dfxm12 on Friday March 24, 2023 @01:18PM (#35292331)
I'm not sure exactly what statements you're referring to, but consider if you've ever seen a [b] in a rom filename, that means it's known to be a "bad dump". Compare this to roms with [!] in their filename, which signifies a "verified good dump".
Re:Nintendo's Wii U and 3DS stores closing means game over f... by AdmiralAsshat on Friday March 24, 2023 @02:51PM (#35293786)
Damn. I wonder how many games I fully played through back in the day against a known "bad" dump.

EDIT: Now I'm even more confused as to why some of those "good sets" would even contain known bad dumps.

Re:Nintendo's Wii U and 3DS stores closing means game over f... by dfxm12 on Friday March 24, 2023 @03:11PM (#35294031)
I think the Good Sets were meant to archive every single dump of every game.
Re:Nintendo's Wii U and 3DS stores closing means game over f... by wk_end on Friday March 24, 2023 @04:13PM (#35294800)
Once upon a time there was a program called "GoodTools" that maintained a database of all known dumps, so you could run it against your ROMs and it could identify which ROMs were known bad. Dumb completionists then decide to collect and distribute sets containing every ROM - including the bad ones - in the GoodTools database, so-called "good sets", which besides wasting lots of bandwidth and storage space (at a time when this stuff wasn't quite so cheap!) also unfortunately helped bad dumps stick around.
Re:Nintendo's Wii U and 3DS stores closing means game over f... by cjsawyer on Friday March 24, 2023 @03:25PM (#35294215)
This is something society needs to deal with. If not for groups like them eventually the media will be lost. IMO there should be a rule that if something isn’t for sale by the rights holder for X years it becomes legal to distribute copies freely.
Re:Nintendo's Wii U and 3DS stores closing means game over f... by coldacid on Friday March 24, 2023 @09:30PM (#35298170)
Agreed, but that still wouldn't help with games that have primarily online experiences, because things like server programs and content management systems also need to be archived for those -- and these (almost) never reach the hands of the people.
Re:Nintendo's Wii U and 3DS stores closing means game over f... by Rapzid on Friday March 24, 2023 @04:24PM (#35294931)
Yeah it must be demoralizing to know the community is executing at a level they simply can't achieve. Maybe that calls into question the need for their existence or their mission.

Maybe their rolen is to fail so laws can change.

Re:Nintendo's Wii U and 3DS stores closing means game over f... by billjings on Friday March 24, 2023 @04:33PM (#35295040)
The VGHF is a part of the same community that builds things like the MiSTer. Just a different wing of it, doing a different job.

A wing that is advocating for changes to the law, by the way. So maybe you should donate! https://gamehistory.org/donate/

Re:Nintendo's Wii U and 3DS stores closing means game over f... by Rapzid on Friday March 24, 2023 @05:01PM (#35295438)
I leave that for those who care about above/under board.
Re:Nintendo's Wii U and 3DS stores closing means game over f... by vorpalhex on Friday March 24, 2023 @01:20PM (#35292373)
Thank you for that gist. I had assumed that rom codes were just region codes and it never occurred to me to even look for a key.
Re:Nintendo's Wii U and 3DS stores closing means game over f... by Fnoord on Friday March 24, 2023 @01:52PM (#35292954)
> Meanwhile, people have been distributing roms for 25 years

Longer. I had a Chinese friend on vacation who had like 64 Gameboy games on one cardridge. Meanwhile, I had only one. His method was more convenient, legality be damned.

Re:Nintendo's Wii U and 3DS stores closing means game over f... by bastardoperator on Friday March 24, 2023 @02:11PM (#35293240)
My kid has been playing with mame and roms since around 8 years old, he's 16 now, sure I used to have to jump in from time to time, but if anything ROM's and custom built images are what got my son into a basic understanding of how a lot of tech works. If a kid can do it so can others. The sheer amount of effort that goes into emulators is insane and I'm grateful for being able to share a lot of my childhood with my son because of those people's work and dedication.
Re:Nintendo's Wii U and 3DS stores closing means game over f... by andrepd on Friday March 24, 2023 @02:49PM (#35293762)
It's funny he gives those examples in particular, as Pokemon Crystal and SMB3 both have commented source code (by disassembly ofc), let alone bit-perfect roms.
Re:Nintendo's Wii U and 3DS stores closing means game over f... by ginko on Friday March 24, 2023 @04:27PM (#35294974)
>Meanwhile, people have been distributing roms for 25 years, and the strength of the community ensures you don't get burned.

Not just that, Nintendo got caught distributing community ROMs in their own virtual console.

Re:Nintendo's Wii U and 3DS stores closing means game over f... by OatmealDome on Friday March 24, 2023 @07:33PM (#35297128)
I assume you mean Nintendo using the iNES file format to distribute NES ROM files?

All evidence currently points to them simply using the format (possibly because they hired an iNES developer way back in the day), not them selling you pirated ROMs.

For one, none of Nintendo's ROM files match any pre-existing ROM files you can find on the internet. [1]

During the gigaleak (an event where Nintendo's internal network was breached and many files were stolen), it was found that Nintendo has a vast archive of master ROMs that they pull from whenever they need to re-release a classic game. While they may use community-dumped ROMs for internal testing, they are highly insistent that they ship their own original copies in retail products. In fact, it was even found that they had a tool to convert from their internal format for storing NES ROMs (CHR and PRG ROM data stored in separate files) to the iNES format. [2]

[1] https://www.reddit.com/r/emulation/comments/uaszvp/no_ninten...

[2] https://luigiblood.tumblr.com/post/682410911082921985/no-nin...

Re:Nintendo's Wii U and 3DS stores closing means game over f... by AussieWog93 on Saturday March 25, 2023 @03:50AM (#35300436)
>Every game for every region has a rom already, for each game a few roms of "analytical grade" at this point, and its not hard to be pointed in the right direction these days.

It goes deeper than that. I run an online retro games business, and occasionally get extremely specific requests from the preservationists, like particular AU-exclusive serial numbers that still haven't been dumped.

The .iso for the PAL demo version of Sega Soccer 97 was from a disc in our possession too, although due to not realising what we had we let it go for $10...

Re:Nintendo's Wii U and 3DS stores closing means game over f... by mid-kid on Saturday March 25, 2023 @04:07AM (#35300514)
Since the 3ds/wiiu, games are signed, and these signatures are difficult if not impossible to forge. This makes it really easy to verify whether a dump is correct, at least for the encrypted portions of a cartridge.