News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:ChatGPT Plugins by nwienert on Thursday March 23, 2023 @05:02PM (#35281208)
We have a ton of protection laws around all sorts of dangerous technology, this is a super naive take. You can't buy tons of weapon technology, nuclear materials, aerosolized compounds, pesticides. These are all highly regulated and illegal pieces of technology for the better.

In general the liberal position of progress = good is wrong in many cases, and I'll be thankful to see AI get neutered. If anything treat it like nuclear arms and have the world come up with heavy regulation.

Not even touching the fact it is quite literal copyright laundering and a massive wealth transfer to the top (two things we pass laws protecting against often), but the danger it poses to society is worth a blanket ban. The upsides aren't there.

Re:ChatGPT Plugins by volkk on Thursday March 23, 2023 @05:25PM (#35281520)
> You can't buy tons of weapon technology, nuclear materials, aerosolized compounds, pesticides. These are all highly regulated and illegal pieces of technology for the better.

ha, the big difference is that this whole list can actually affect the ultra wealthy. AI has the power to make them entirely untouchable one day, so good luck seeing any kind of regulation happen here.

Re:ChatGPT Plugins by realce on Thursday March 23, 2023 @05:50PM (#35281775)
So everyone should have a hydrogen bomb at the lowest price the market can provide, that's your actual opinion?
Re:ChatGPT Plugins by volkk on Friday March 24, 2023 @11:59AM (#35290919)
i dont know what the hell you're talking about
Re:ChatGPT Plugins by astrange on Thursday March 23, 2023 @11:12PM (#35284617)
I do not think the reason for nuclear weapons treaties is that they can blow up "the ultra wealthy". Is that why the USSR signed them?
Re:ChatGPT Plugins by volkk on Friday March 24, 2023 @12:01PM (#35290974)
you can replace ultra wealthy with powerful. same point stands. the only things that become regulated heavily are things that can affect the people that live at the top, whether its the obscenely rich, or the despots in various countries.
Re:ChatGPT Plugins by smartmic on Thursday March 23, 2023 @06:04PM (#35281925)
That's right. It is not hard to imagine similarly disastrous GPT/AI "plug-ins" with access to purchasing, manufacturing, robotics, bioengineering, genetic manipulation resources, etc. The only way forward for humanity is self-restraint through regulation. Which of course gives no guarantee that the cat will be let out of the bag (edit: or earlier events such as nuclear war or climate catastrophe will kill us off sooner)
Re:ChatGPT Plugins by chatmasta on Thursday March 23, 2023 @06:18PM (#35282126)
Why not regulate the genetic manipulation and bioengineering? It seems almost irrelevant whether it's an AI who's doing the work, since the physical risks would generally exist regardless of whether a human or AI is conducting the research. And in fact, in some contexts, you could even make the argument that it's safer in the hands of an AI (e.g., I'd rather Gain of Function research be performed by robotic AI on an asteroid rather than in a lab in Wuhan run by employees who are vulnerable to human error).
Re:ChatGPT Plugins by saulpw on Thursday March 23, 2023 @06:37PM (#35282403)
We can't regulate specific things fast enough. It takes years of political infighting (this is intentional! government and democracy are supposed to move slowly so as to break things slowly) to get even partial regulation. Meanwhile every day brings another AI feature that could irreversibly bring about the end of humanity or society or democracy or ...
Re:ChatGPT Plugins by dymk on Thursday March 23, 2023 @07:44PM (#35283138)
Cat is already out of the bag, regulation will do nothing to even slow down the inevitable pan-genocidal AI, _if_ such a thing can be created
Re:ChatGPT Plugins by wolverine876 on Thursday March 23, 2023 @11:30PM (#35284748)
It's obviously false. Nuclear weapon proliferation has been largely prevented, for example. Many dangerous pathogens and lots of other things are not available to the public.

Asserting inevitability is an old rhetorical technique; it's purposes are obvious. What I wonder is, why are you using it? It serves people who want this power and have something to gain, the people who control it. Why are you fighting their battle for them?

Re:ChatGPT Plugins by dymk on Friday March 24, 2023 @12:32AM (#35285116)
You can’t make a nuclear weapon with an internet connection and a GPU. Rather than imply some secondary motive on my part, put a modicum of critical thinking into what makes a nuke different than an ML model.
Re:ChatGPT Plugins by DoughnutHole on Friday March 24, 2023 @06:45AM (#35287340)
Nuclear materials have fundamental material chokepoints that make them far easier to control.

- Most countries have little to no uranium deposits and so have to be able to find a uranium-producing ally willing to play ball.

- Production of enriched fuel and R&D are both outrageously expensive, generally limiting them to state actors.

- Enrichment has massive energy requirements and requires huge facilities, tipping off observers of what you're doing

Despite all this and decades of strong anti-nuclear proliferation international agreements India, Pakistan, South Africa, Isreal, and North Korea have all developed nuclear weapons in defiance of the UN and international law.

In comparison the only real bottleneck in proliferation of AI is computing power - but the cost of running an LLM is a pittance compared to a nuclear weapons program. OpenAI has raised something like $11 billion in funding. A single new proposed US Department of Energy uranium enrichment plant is estimated to cost $10 billion just to build.

I don't believe proliferation is inevitable but it's very possible that the genie is out of the bottle. You would have to convince the entire world that the risks are large enough to to warrant putting on the brakes, and the dangers of AI are much harder to explain than the dangers of nuclear weapons. And if rival countries cannot agree on regulation then we're just going to see a new arms race.

Re:ChatGPT Plugins by flangola7 on Thursday March 23, 2023 @11:39PM (#35284813)
I'd rather try and fail than give up without a fight. I'm many things but I'm not a coward.
Re:ChatGPT Plugins by dymk on Friday March 24, 2023 @12:34AM (#35285127)
Best of luck!
Re:ChatGPT Plugins by bobthepanda on Thursday March 23, 2023 @06:32PM (#35282338)
We already do; China jailed somebody for gene editing babies unethically for HIV resistance.

We can walk and chew gum at the same time, and regulate two things.

Re:ChatGPT Plugins by andsoitis on Thursday March 23, 2023 @07:19PM (#35282891)
> You can't buy tons of weapon technology, nuclear materials, aerosolized compounds, pesticides. These are all highly regulated and illegal pieces of technology for the better.

All those examples put us in physical danger to the point of death.

Re:ChatGPT Plugins by btmiller on Thursday March 23, 2023 @08:09PM (#35283337)
Risks to physical danger evolve all the time. It’s not a big leap from AI generated this script to a fatal bug is nefariously hidden in the AI generated library in-use by mission critical services (e.g. cars, medical devices, missiles, fertilizers).
Re:ChatGPT Plugins by chunes3 on Thursday March 23, 2023 @08:22PM (#35283431)
AI is now poised to make bureaucratic decisions. Bureaucracy puts people in physical danger every day. I've had medical treatments a doctor said I need denied by my insurance, for example.
Re:ChatGPT Plugins by dustymcp on Friday March 24, 2023 @03:11AM (#35285975)
For somebody from another country this sounds insane..
Re:ChatGPT Plugins by nwienert on Thursday March 23, 2023 @08:46PM (#35283619)
Others siblings have good replies, but also, we regulate without physical danger all the damn time.

See airlines, traffic control, medical equipment, government services, but also we regulate ads, TV, financial services, crypto. I mean we regulate so many “tech” things for the benefit of society this is a losing argument to take. There’s plenty of room to argue the elsewhere but the idea that we don’t regulate tech if it’s not immediately a physical danger is crazy. Even global warming is a huge one, down to housing codes and cars etc. It’s a potential physical danger hundreds of years out, and we’re freaking out about it. Yet AI had the chance to really do much more damage within a much shorter time frame.

We also just regulate soft social stability things all over, be it nudity, noise, etc.

Re:ChatGPT Plugins by andsoitis on Thursday March 23, 2023 @09:13PM (#35283806)
Let me recalibrate. I'm not arguing that there technology or AI or things that don't cause death should not be regulated, but I can see that might be the inference.

I just think that comparing AI to nuclear weapons seems like hyperbole.

Re:ChatGPT Plugins by actually_a_dog on Thursday March 23, 2023 @10:11PM (#35284190)
Why is it hyperbole? Nuclear weapons and AI both have the capacity to end the world.
Re:ChatGPT Plugins by andsoitis on Friday March 24, 2023 @10:45AM (#35289720)
Private citizens and companies do not have access to nuclear weapon technology and even the countries who do are being watched like hawks.

If equally or similarly dangerous, are you then saying AI technology should be taken out of the hands of companies and private citizens?

Re:ChatGPT Plugins by actually_a_dog on Sunday March 26, 2023 @04:22AM (#35312303)
For the sake of argument, let's say yes, AI should be taken out of the hands of the private sector entirely.
Re:ChatGPT Plugins by pmoriarty on Thursday March 23, 2023 @08:52PM (#35283656)
"We have a ton of protection laws around all sorts of dangerous technology, this is a super naive take. You can't buy tons of weapon technology, nuclear materials, aerosolized compounds, pesticides. These are all highly regulated and illegal pieces of technology for the better."

As technology advances, such prohibitions are going to become less and less effective.

Tech is constantly getting smaller, cheaper and easier for a random person or group of people to acquire, no matter what the laws say.

Add in the nearly infinite profit and power motive to get hold of strong AI and it'll almost impossible to stop, as governments, billionaires, and megacorps all over the world will see it as a massive competitive disadvantage not to have one.

Make laws against it in one place, your competitor in another part of the world without such laws or their effective enforcement will dominate you before long.

Re:ChatGPT Plugins by arvinsim on Thursday March 23, 2023 @09:23PM (#35283891)
> Add in the nearly infinite profit and power motive to get hold of strong AI and it'll almost impossible to stop, as governments, billionaires, and megacorps all over the world will see it as a massive competitive disadvantage not to have one.

I wouldn't say that this is an additional reason.

I would say that this is the primary reason that overrides the reasonable concerns that people have for AI. We are human after all.

Re:ChatGPT Plugins by wolverine876 on Thursday March 23, 2023 @11:31PM (#35284754)
It's a baseless assertion, often repeated. Reptition isn't evidence. Is there any evidence?

There's lots of evidence of our ability to control the development, use and proliferation of technology.

Re:ChatGPT Plugins by pmoriarty on Thursday March 23, 2023 @11:38PM (#35284794)
Have laws stopped music piracy? Have laws stopped copyright infringement?

Both have happened at a rampant pace once the technology to easily copy music and copyrighted content became easily available and virtually free.

The same is likely to happen to every technology that becomes cheap enough to make and easy enough to use -- which is where technology as a whole is trending towards.

Laws against technology manufacture/use are only effective while the barrier to entry remains high.

Re:ChatGPT Plugins by wolverine876 on Friday March 24, 2023 @12:12AM (#35284992)
> Have laws stopped music piracy? Have laws stopped copyright infringement?

They have a large effect. But regardless, I don't see the point. Evidence that X doesn't always do Y isn't evidence that X is ineffective doing Y. Seatbelts don't always save your life, but are not ineffective.

Re:ChatGPT Plugins by andrepd on Thursday March 23, 2023 @09:58PM (#35284108)
> massive wealth transfer to the top (thing we pass laws protecting against often)

If only.

Re:ChatGPT Plugins by micromacrofoot on Thursday March 23, 2023 @10:13PM (#35284218)
how do you regulate something that many people can already run on their home gpu? how much software has ever been successfully banned from distribution after release?
Re:ChatGPT Plugins by dustymcp on Friday March 24, 2023 @03:12AM (#35285980)
They do like to try :(
Re:ChatGPT Plugins by judge2020 on Thursday March 23, 2023 @11:56PM (#35284917)
> You can't buy tons of weapon technology, nuclear materials, aerosolized compounds, pesticides. These are all highly regulated and illegal pieces of technology for the better.

Only because we know the risks and issues with them.

OP is talking about furthering technology, which is quite literally "discovering new things"; regulations on furthering technology (outside of literal nuclear weapons) would have to be along the lines of "you must submit your idea for approval to the US government before using it in a non-academic context if could be interpreted as industry-changing or inventing", which means anyone with ideas will just move to a country that doesn't hinder its own technological progress.

Re:ChatGPT Plugins by sdenton4 on Friday March 24, 2023 @01:28AM (#35285388)
Human review boards and restrictions on various dangerous biological research exist explicitly to limit damage from furthering lines of research which might be dangerous.
Re:ChatGPT Plugins by judge2020 on Friday March 24, 2023 @09:16AM (#35288621)
Those seem to be explicitly for actual research papers and whatnot, and are largely voluntary; it’s not mandated by the government.