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Re:GitHub Copilot X: The AI-powered developer experience by pastor_bob on Wednesday March 22, 2023 @12:59PM (#35263922)
$50+ in monthly subscription fees?

BRB buying some MSFT

Re:GitHub Copilot X: The AI-powered developer experience by paxys on Wednesday March 22, 2023 @01:05PM (#35264011)
We forgot very quickly that there was an entire generation of developers who paid $1000-2000 or more for an MSDN subscription just as the base cost for doing business. This is what Microsoft does.
Re:GitHub Copilot X: The AI-powered developer experience by axlee on Wednesday March 22, 2023 @01:39PM (#35264460)
Or $299 a year for the Apple Developer Program just for the great honor to be able to develop for that platform...
Re:GitHub Copilot X: The AI-powered developer experience by booi on Wednesday March 22, 2023 @02:10PM (#35264921)
that's not entirely fair... you also need a iDevice and some form of new-ish mac as well.
Re:GitHub Copilot X: The AI-powered developer experience by ericlewis on Wednesday March 22, 2023 @02:28PM (#35265187)
$299 a year? It is $99.
Re:GitHub Copilot X: The AI-powered developer experience by drusepth on Wednesday March 22, 2023 @02:38PM (#35265314)
The Developer Program plan is $99/year and enables distribution via the App Store.

The Developer Enterprise Program plan is $299/year and enables corporate/internal distribution to employees.

Most people only need the first, but the second is also an option. And if you need both, it's technically $398/year for the great honor.

Re:GitHub Copilot X: The AI-powered developer experience by atonse on Thursday March 30, 2023 @01:05AM (#35368261)
Most enterprises will spend more than $299 a year just discussing whether they should renew this subscription.
Re:GitHub Copilot X: The AI-powered developer experience by jjeaff on Wednesday March 22, 2023 @02:40PM (#35265350)
$99 plus 15-30% of everything you create.
Re:GitHub Copilot X: The AI-powered developer experience by Terretta on Wednesday March 22, 2023 @02:50PM (#35265518)
Try selling through Amazon.com and see what % you keep.

Then try selling through a grocery or drugstore chain.

Re:GitHub Copilot X: The AI-powered developer experience by whimsicalism on Wednesday March 22, 2023 @02:53PM (#35265566)
The difference being I can always walk to a different grocery store without having to pay ~$1k.
Re:GitHub Copilot X: The AI-powered developer experience by brookst on Wednesday March 22, 2023 @05:26PM (#35267311)
As a brand, do you get more value from being on Amazon or in a local grocery store?
Re:GitHub Copilot X: The AI-powered developer experience by Breza on Monday March 27, 2023 @12:08PM (#35328438)
There's still more competition in the retail space and greater ability to sell across multiple stores simultaneously.
Re:GitHub Copilot X: The AI-powered developer experience by DeathArrow on Wednesday March 22, 2023 @05:52PM (#35267565)
Have you tried selling apps trough Amazon or grocery stores?
Re:GitHub Copilot X: The AI-powered developer experience by jjeaff on Sunday March 26, 2023 @07:23PM (#35320822)
Sure, but I don't have to sell on Amazon. I can sell through my own website and just pay transaction fees if I want. And many companies do just that now.

But good luck trying to sell your new iphone app through your own website.

At least with android, you could sell an APK download or sell through a different app store.

Re:GitHub Copilot X: The AI-powered developer experience by Jerry2 on Wednesday March 22, 2023 @07:20PM (#35268437)
Considering that Youtube takes 45% of every ad dollar spent on videos I make, I'd consider that a bargain.
Re:GitHub Copilot X: The AI-powered developer experience by xxpor on Wednesday March 22, 2023 @01:29PM (#35264309)
the MSDN subscription was amazing for me to piggyback off of my dad as a kid though. access to essentially everything in MS's current and back catalog that was even remotely related to dev work, including OSes :)
Re:GitHub Copilot X: The AI-powered developer experience by spookthesunset on Wednesday March 22, 2023 @01:37PM (#35264433)
The best was when you knew somebody who worked at microsoft and could get the company discount!
Re:GitHub Copilot X: The AI-powered developer experience by LASR on Wednesday March 22, 2023 @03:14PM (#35265829)
If you knew someone working at MSFT, you would just ask them for some free keys.
Re:GitHub Copilot X: The AI-powered developer experience by nwatson on Wednesday March 22, 2023 @03:29PM (#35266002)
My old MSDN keys for Windows from ten years ago will still unlock Windows 10/11 installs when I need a Windows VM.
Re:GitHub Copilot X: The AI-powered developer experience by nirav72 on Wednesday March 22, 2023 @01:53PM (#35264668)
Did individual developers actually pay that? I’ve done quite a bit of development in the MS ecosystem and can’t recall anyone personally paying for MSDN. It was always through their employer that they got access.
Re:GitHub Copilot X: The AI-powered developer experience by paxys on Wednesday March 22, 2023 @02:38PM (#35265310)
We will pretty soon get to a point where companies start to volume license Copilot for their entire engineering team, so really the same thing.
Re:GitHub Copilot X: The AI-powered developer experience by WaxProlix on Wednesday March 22, 2023 @02:05PM (#35264854)
Consultants and freelancers for sure did - though again that's technically a business expense.
Re:GitHub Copilot X: The AI-powered developer experience by ghaff on Wednesday March 22, 2023 @02:29PM (#35265198)
I definitely had some sort of personal MSDN subscription at one point. Plus compilers and the tike were far from free. I had shelves of books. And computers themselves cost more in inflation-adjusted dollars.
Re:GitHub Copilot X: The AI-powered developer experience by zerkten on Wednesday March 22, 2023 @02:43PM (#35265408)
Individual developers paying was always an insignificant volume. It was still within reach so devs could get it and be productive. As an example, the cost was fairly insignificant to the many .NET devs who jumped to SharePoint in the 2000s to keep their top rates. People give SP a hard time quite rightly, but as a revenue generator for devs in many markets with limited options, it was a very good choice.

It was priced and designed for companies to be buying as a bundle with other licensing. individual devs would frequently use some of the loopholes through licensing partners to commit to what was basically a three year subscription that spread the cost. For companies, it could mitigate some of the costs associated with the proliferation of environments that needed to be licensed from top-to-bottom. Later, these may stop being eligible for MSDN use and generate more revenue. License auditing was real and gave visibility into this usage.

VMware still have a program like this going for their admin user base. It gets recommended by the r/homelab folks who haven't adopted Proxmox.

Re:GitHub Copilot X: The AI-powered developer experience by arwhatever on Wednesday March 22, 2023 @02:46PM (#35265452)
I believe that they tended to hand it out for free or very inexpensive to students, substantial trial offerings to new/small businesses, etc.
Re:GitHub Copilot X: The AI-powered developer experience by cscurmudgeon on Wednesday March 22, 2023 @03:14PM (#35265835)
While building off of free open source. Perfect.
Re:GitHub Copilot X: The AI-powered developer experience by reaperducer on Wednesday March 22, 2023 @05:20PM (#35267250)
We forgot very quickly that there was an entire generation of developers who paid $1000-2000 or more for an MSDN subscription just as the base cost for doing business.

Or $800 for a COBOL|FORTRAN|C|AP/L compiler, plus $600 for a debugger.

At least when you upgraded the next year, you got $20 off!

Re:GitHub Copilot X: The AI-powered developer experience by keithnz on Wednesday March 22, 2023 @09:32PM (#35269444)
msdn subscriptions were great! virtually every single piece of microsoft software. You'd get this huge folder of CDs back in the day!
Re:GitHub Copilot X: The AI-powered developer experience by tarruda on Wednesday March 22, 2023 @01:10PM (#35264067)
It is basically free if you consider companies will be automating a lot of the dev grunt work for now on. Learning to code using tools like Copilot will be a requirement, but instead of 10 developers you hire 1.
Re:GitHub Copilot X: The AI-powered developer experience by Godel_unicode on Thursday March 23, 2023 @12:42AM (#35270623)
The amount of dev work isn’t fixed. I think it’s more likely that they’ll keep the 10 (or even hire more) and make more software.
Re:GitHub Copilot X: The AI-powered developer experience by wysewun on Wednesday March 22, 2023 @01:44PM (#35264532)
Great point. Time to do research on how much GitHub contributes to msft earnings. Really does seem like they’re on the verge of a huge jump
Re:GitHub Copilot X: The AI-powered developer experience by moonchrome on Wednesday March 22, 2023 @04:35PM (#35266719)
They are bragging about 1m developers on copilot, let's say 20$/m to be generous - that's 20m$/month - they probably have larger single client revenues than that and I doubt copilot is high margin (I bet I spend more than 10$/month in compute by the queries I generate).

Unless this goes to hundreds of dollars/month (which I would pay if it was a good experience) I don't see this making a dent.

Re:GitHub Copilot X: The AI-powered developer experience by mewpmewp2 on Wednesday March 22, 2023 @04:46PM (#35266845)
Probably it will be using license for enterprises with decent margins, and it will be much higher cost then. Soon it's no-brainer for all enterprises to buy. I truly think that a little bit more time and engineering costs would be down 80% - 90%, because of all this tooling.
Re:GitHub Copilot X: The AI-powered developer experience by DeathArrow on Wednesday March 22, 2023 @06:01PM (#35267664)
Maybe they think of waiting until everyone uses Copilot and then jack up the price.

But that wouldn't quite work.

Re:GitHub Copilot X: The AI-powered developer experience by theptip on Thursday March 23, 2023 @12:59AM (#35270704)
The upsell is easy to envision though. Just like GitHub.

If developers all use it for their own projects, you have a viral growth engine. And you can charge a lot more for the enterprise license.

SAML, fine-tuning on your private repos, etc. - this could be a very expensive seat with all the options added.

Re:GitHub Copilot X: The AI-powered developer experience by moonchrome on Thursday March 23, 2023 @06:23AM (#35272514)
They already have enterprise licenses at 20$/month I generously quoted above (personal is 10$/month), and I think they might have a tough sell when you consider privacy/IP concerns.

I think they are just trying to establish themselves in the market and how the market will play out will be seen over the coming years.

Re:GitHub Copilot X: The AI-powered developer experience by rvz on Wednesday March 22, 2023 @01:49PM (#35264607)
> BRB buying some MSFT

No.

Tell me you buy the hype and on high impact macro-economic news like FOMC and lose more money due to volatility without telling me.

Almost everyone here knew GPT-4 will release soon, months ago in advance and you now decide to 'buy' MSFT as soon as it goes up to $277?

The market really does get retail FOMO'ing in stocks with the hype and it just never ceases to surprise me that it happens here too.

Re:GitHub Copilot X: The AI-powered developer experience by _boffin_ on Wednesday March 22, 2023 @01:53PM (#35264669)
I think you have a valid point or two, but I think you’re not grasping how much enterprises will be throwing money at MSFT.
Re:GitHub Copilot X: The AI-powered developer experience by Godel_unicode on Thursday March 23, 2023 @12:40AM (#35270611)
GitHub is already give or take a billion dollar business, and Microsoft is orders of magnitude bigger than that. This will be a nice little sideline for someone but it’s at least as valuable for mindshare as revenue.
Re:GitHub Copilot X: The AI-powered developer experience by bavila on Wednesday March 22, 2023 @03:34PM (#35266056)
This "tell me X without telling me" meme is, frankly, quite snarky and unnecessary.
Re:GitHub Copilot X: The AI-powered developer experience by travisjungroth on Wednesday March 22, 2023 @05:10PM (#35267129)
It’s such a bummer that it started as a joke confessional TikTok meme and became a bitter forum reply meme.
Re:GitHub Copilot X: The AI-powered developer experience by mewpmewp2 on Wednesday March 22, 2023 @04:43PM (#35266811)
Based on my own productivity, and how strong the tools seem to be, then I presume current increase in the value is still too very low. These tools would eventually reduce workforce costs by 90% at the very least in my view. To me it seems like most people don't truly understand how things are going to change now.
Re:GitHub Copilot X: The AI-powered developer experience by vlunkr on Wednesday March 22, 2023 @05:12PM (#35267146)
Maybe when they become much much more sophisticated. Right now they reduce time spent write boilerplate and looking at docs. How much of you overall time is spent on those tasks now? For most devs its not much. Significant time is spent reading code to understand program architecture, investigating bugs caused by obscure edge cases, refactoring or extending functionality without breaking everything. Copilot doesn't even scratch the surface of those yet.
Re:GitHub Copilot X: The AI-powered developer experience by DeathArrow on Wednesday March 22, 2023 @06:06PM (#35267719)
It can find bugs, suggest fixes, write tests and do PRs.
Re:GitHub Copilot X: The AI-powered developer experience by mewpmewp2 on Thursday March 23, 2023 @04:26PM (#35280840)
I am very certain it has 5x my productivity already. But I have been practicing and using it pretty much 24/7 and as well on weekends. I think in 6 months it is so for everyone in very many fields.

It also helps me understand new codebases in languages that I am not familiar with.

In addition it is good for refactoring and can spot bugs.

I use combination of chatgpt in editor and copilot. And I have ChatGPT one shortkey away as an os app.

Re:GitHub Copilot X: The AI-powered developer experience by csantini on Wednesday March 22, 2023 @01:50PM (#35264620)
If you want it cheaper: https://how2terminal.com

This is when I build a product and then Microsoft releases it three weeks later -_-

Re:GitHub Copilot X: The AI-powered developer experience by MattSayar on Wednesday March 22, 2023 @02:20PM (#35265064)
What a great landing page. Clear, to the point, with a self-explanatory demo. I know exactly what to do and how to use it in under 30 seconds
Re:GitHub Copilot X: The AI-powered developer experience by cess11 on Wednesday March 22, 2023 @02:24PM (#35265136)
In case you'd like to know, there are a couple of typos on the landing page: focussed and Custome service.
Re:GitHub Copilot X: The AI-powered developer experience by dotancohen on Wednesday March 22, 2023 @03:14PM (#35265834)
You're pricing is terrific. The free plan provides just enough daily queries to try it, and the monthly plan might be a good fit for a business.

I'm going to sign up for the free plan, not because I need such a tool, but rather so that my boss might see me using it and decide that it's worth $10 a month to her.

Re:GitHub Copilot X: The AI-powered developer experience by dotancohen on Wednesday March 22, 2023 @03:19PM (#35265876)
What is `!-*f(6s6U8Q9b` here:

  const questionCriteria = {
    filter: '!-*f(6s6U8Q9b' // body_markdown and link
  }
I thought maybe it is a hard-coded CSS element name in StackOverflow answers, judging by the context, but it's not that. Could you shed some light on this?

Found in the How2 source file `how2/lib/how2.js`. Thanks.*

[dead]
Re:GitHub Copilot X: The AI-powered developer experience by dotancohen on Thursday March 23, 2023 @06:18AM (#35272474)
I see, thank you.
Re:GitHub Copilot X: The AI-powered developer experience by fbuilesv on Wednesday March 22, 2023 @07:14PM (#35268389)
It's a filter for the Stack Overflow API, you can test it out:

* https://api.stackexchange.com/2.2/questions/16476924?order=d...

* https://api.stackexchange.com/2.2/questions/16476924?order=d...

I think this should contain a list of what's in the filter: https://api.stackexchange.com/2.3/filters/!-*f(6s6U8Q9b

Re:GitHub Copilot X: The AI-powered developer experience by dotancohen on Thursday March 23, 2023 @06:19AM (#35272480)
Terrific, thank you.
Re:GitHub Copilot X: The AI-powered developer experience by donmcronald on Wednesday March 22, 2023 @04:06PM (#35266411)
That's super cool. I hate the pricing. I typically know everything I need to for day-to-day usage of the shell and only do things that require discovery every few months. 100 queries wouldn't be enough in those months, so I'd have some months where I'm paying for nothing and the odd month where I don't get enough usage.

$9 per month also makes it costly enough that I wouldn't buy it as a "just to have" kind of tool. I don't think I'd get $100 of value vs searching online, especially since I attribute some negative value to tools that can be taken away from me. I don't want to pay forever and be dependent on something that could disappear tomorrow.

I don't get why something like that needs to be an online service. I don't know much about AI, so maybe it's a lack of understanding on my part, but why can't I simply have a copy of the trained model on my local machine where there's no ongoing cost (to you) whenever I run a command? Isn't an online API a complex solution to a problem that could be solved with a local app + data?

Maybe I just lack understanding and the models are too big or the compute required to make a query is huge. If you could give some insight I'd genuinely appreciate it.

Even though I'd never buy it as a subscription, it's the kind of thing I'd pay for as a perpetual app. I'd wouldn't hesitate to pay $50 if I could install it on my machines and forget about it until it would be useful. I'd also expect to pay for updated versions of the models whenever I need them.

Regardless, I think it's amazing as a discovery tool. I don't mind reading 'man' pages to figure out details, but I always feel like it's a hassle to discover what command I need for certain tasks.

Also, I'm probably an outlier since I make a lot of effort to avoid tools that rely on an internet connection to function. IE: I won't rely on GitHub. I'll use it, but only as a push mirror.

Re:GitHub Copilot X: The AI-powered developer experience by reaperducer on Wednesday March 22, 2023 @05:29PM (#35267336)
If you want it cheaper: https://how2terminal.com

Very cool. Too bad I don't do subscriptions. If you ever figure out how to do a version on localhost, I'd pay $40 or so for it.

Re:GitHub Copilot X: The AI-powered developer experience by shellfly on Wednesday March 22, 2023 @10:38PM (#35269852)
I made a terminal AI as well based on ChatGPT: https://github.com/shellfly/aoi . I intend to provide a way to run the shell command automatically which can reduce lots copy and paste.
Re:GitHub Copilot X: The AI-powered developer experience by berniedurfee on Wednesday March 22, 2023 @02:07PM (#35264869)
I feel like this is one of those eras where I will, yet again, not invest early and will, yet again, not make stupid money on the other end.

Cheers to those who know where to put their dollars to ride this AI bubble to early retirement!

Re:GitHub Copilot X: The AI-powered developer experience by bg24 on Wednesday March 22, 2023 @02:22PM (#35265106)
Where is the pricing? I looked around and not obvious if I missed it. Some of these used to be in copilot labs. I used and then disabled it. Was part of monthly copilot subscription.
Re:GitHub Copilot X: The AI-powered developer experience by raincole on Wednesday March 22, 2023 @10:56PM (#35269975)
What worris me is not the price. It's that they mention it as a VSCode and VS feature, not as an API.

So what if I use Intellij? And worse, would it eventually kill Intellij?

Re:GitHub Copilot X: The AI-powered developer experience by wahnfrieden on Wednesday March 22, 2023 @11:01PM (#35270019)
Welcome to capitalism where competition is supposedly good
Re:GitHub Copilot X: The AI-powered developer experience by Godel_unicode on Thursday March 23, 2023 @12:28AM (#35270546)
Re:GitHub Copilot X: The AI-powered developer experience by raincole on Thursday March 23, 2023 @12:33AM (#35270576)
? Did you even read the thread? It's about Copilot X, not Copilot. I use Copilot in Intellij daily, and that's exact what I'm worrying about: once MS's AI tools get big enough, they won't be so friendly to third-party IDEs.

It's not a stretch at all. Take a look at Copilot's homepage: https://github.com/features/copilot

> Keep flying with your favorite editor

Now, look at Copilot X's announcement:

> We are bringing a chat interface to the editor that’s focused on developer scenarios and natively integrates with VS Code and Visual Studio

> It recognizes what code a developer has typed, what error messages are shown, and it’s deeply embedded into the IDE.

It reads like "we're going to make AI a competitive advantage of VS and VScode." Of course they have the right to do it, I'm just saying I hate it.

Re:GitHub Copilot X: The AI-powered developer experience by Godel_unicode on Thursday March 23, 2023 @12:44AM (#35270631)
Of course I did, did you read the forum rules?

They’re releasing their editors first. Just like they did the last time. Obviously.