It seems so bizarre that an adult would never learn to drive. Like you might not need to drive for daily city life but it really limits your options if you ever want to travel.

I'm one of the no-license London populace, and travel more frequently than most. I don't find that it has limited me at all. On the occasions when I absolutely need a car instead of the existing options, taxis are available.

That seems like a very limited perspective. I've been to many places in the world where taxis don't run. Being able to drive is a basic life skill, like knowing how to swim or cook a meal.

Many of the people I’ve met who cannot drive are actually some of the most traveled people I know. In fact spending short periods in lots of different countries makes it a whole lot harder to learn to drive.

I didn’t learn to drive until I was in my 30s and used to spend my 20s travelling the length and breadth of the U.K. and Europe. I even had a long distance relationship at the time too. A long distance relationship that worked because we are now married.

Sometimes I might have to plan a journey in advance (to figure out the route) but there were plenty of times I just went where the wind took me (proverbially speaking). And frankly even after learning to drive, smart phones weren’t invented yet and satnavs were luxuries, so you’d often still need to plan ahead even if you could drive.

So no, driving needn’t be an essential life skill for everyone. And that doesn’t mean they have a limited perspective either. On the contrary, if you cannot imagine life without driving then it is your perspective which is limited.

> In fact spending short periods in lots of different countries makes it a whole lot harder to learn to drive.

Huh?

Learning to drive in some countries and for some individuals can take months, be hugely costly and still only result in a license that isn’t immediately transferable to other countries (eg you have to hold a license for x years before you can drive abroad and/or older than x years old).

Other countries might not even allow you to apply for a learners licence unless you have a specific visa.

So if you’re a young adult and travel a lot, it might not even be possible, let alone practical, to earn a license.

Which is precisely why I didn’t learn to drive until I was in my 30s and ready to start a family.

What? Most countries support an International Driving Permit [1] which allows you to drive there on a tourist visa if you're licensed to drive in your home country.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Driving_Permit

I know. I already addressed the issues with that in my post. In short, your suggestion only works if someone has already had a valid driving license before travelling. Which plenty of people who travel lots (and I don’t mean holidays but backpacking for months/years on end or constantly moving from one country to another for work, moving on whenever they get bored) don’t have licenses.

Okay, so "short periods" that add up to significantly more than half the time? Since even if you spend every other week or every other month in another country that leaves you plenty of learning time if you want to.

That scenario adds up, it just wasn't what I thought when I saw "short periods".

“Travelling” in this context means people who spend months or years away from home. Or don’t even have a fixed place they call “home”. A bit like nomads, backpackers, etc.

Sure, some of them will drive. But I’ve also known plenty of people who cannot drive because they spend their time backpacking or who work a couple of years in one county then move to another.

If you're backpacking constantly, sure.

But a couple of years is a huge amount of time. If you put in just 4 hours a week you'll be done in no time. Not knowing how to drive in that situation is because of not caring very much, not because of moving around. And the vast majority of what you learn stays relevant when you move.

> But a couple of years is a huge amount of time. If you put in just 4 hours a week you'll be done in no time.

Sure, if you put 4 hours a week into any activity you’ll soon get good at it. But the crux of the issue is whether that activity is seen as a priority or not.

> Not knowing how to drive in that situation is because of not caring very much, not because of moving around.

They didn’t care because they were moving around a lot.

And frankly it doesn’t really matter what the reason is. Regardless of whether it is a practical or preferential justification, the end result is the same: plenty of people manage just fine without learning to drive.

I find it weird that this concept is so alien to some people. But I guess that’s a good example of the diversity of the readership on here.

You can take a car with you when you move. And leases exist.

This doesn't seem to be about travel at all. It's just that some people don't get a license.

It's not that the concept is alien, it's that the justification you gave isn't really true. It doesn't make it a "whole lot harder to learn to drive". Moving around has almost no effect on getting some driving lessons.

> You can take a car with you when you move. And leases exist.

But you’re not going to have a car if you haven’t already learnt to drive.

> This doesn't seem to be about travel at all. It's just that some people don't get a license.

They don’t get licenses because they’re travelling.

Time is finite, not everyone wants to use it learning to drive.

> It's not that the concept is alien, it's that the justification you gave isn't really true.

It was literally the reason I learnt to drive so late in life. It was the reason many of my friends either learnt to drive later in life or still don’t even drive now.

You might not relate to us but that doesn’t make it untrue.

> It doesn't make it a "whole lot harder to learn to drive". Moving around has almost no effect on getting some driving lessons.

It does if you don’t have a fixed residence. What address are you even going to put on your provisional license?

And if you’re going to spend 2 years max in any one place then you’re there to soak up experiences, not spend it learning to drive.

Look, I get some people see driving as a priority. But not everyone is programmed that way and not every place on earth requires a car to get around. You say this isn’t an alien concept to you yet you fail to accept that people like me exist. So I don’t really know what I can say further

I understand your lack of priority, I just think you're misattributing how much of that comes from being mobile and how much is just how you are.

Like, come on, if you're somewhere for two years it's not the 25 hours that make the difference.

And sure put the address you've been at for an entire year.

It's not a "whole lot harder". You personally didn't want to, and that is fine.

The what now? Please name a single country where you can't just enter and drive with an international driving permit straight away, I can't think of one off the top of my head. If you are going to live in a different country that's a whole different kettle of fish, but typically you can use your international permit for anywhere between 6 months - 3 years depending on the country. And the problem doesn't exist at all anywhere in the EU/EEA/UK, the licences can be used in any country without any time limit, or can be exchanged for the local equivalent without re-taking the exam.

You’re solving the wrong problem. The problem we are discussing is the difficulty of learning to drive when you’re travelling. If you already have a driving license then this entire discussion is moot because you don’t need to learn to drive if you can already drive. Pretty obvious stuff I’d have thought but a few on here seem surprised by this fact. Go figure.

Wait, but you said this, didn't you?

"be hugely costly and still only result in a license that isn’t immediately transferable to other countries (eg you have to hold a license for x years before you can drive abroad and/or older than x years old)"

So I'm going to ask again, what kind of countries issue you with a licence that isn't immediately transferable to other countries? You can get an international driving permit literally the same day you pick up your regular licence, there is no time limitation on that - or if there is where you live, please educate me so I know better.

Maybe the rules had changed, but when I was considering learning to drive in the U.K., I couldn’t use that driving license in the EU unless I had been driving for more than 5 years (or something in that region) and was over 25 years old (again, something in that region).

So you couldn’t pass your driving test then immediately drive abroad.

Edit: I cannot find any detail on that so maybe this isn’t the case any longer. Learn something new everyday :)

Different perspectives, perhaps. I'm sure it is a basic life skill if cars are necessary. For me and people around me, they aren't, and so it isn't. Any places without taxis have their replacements, or - much more likely - aren't suited for car travel at all. Swimming and cooking are skills of far greater necessity. It's strange to me to see driving compared to them.

Woodworking and the wiring of houses are also basic life skills, I imagine. I'll try to learn them when I get there. But so far, I've never wanted for the need to drive a car.

I agree. I know it's complete heracy, but I've done Europe-by-train and Europe-by-rental-car each many times, and I much prefer the latter. If you're talking about travel in America it's not even a question. You learn how to drive or you're going to be stuck in the same 10 mile redius for the rest of your life.

Bullshit.

Traveled all over the world. Lived in 8 different cities. Never needed a car.

I am confused what you think you need a car for?? It is such a strange stance. Where have you gone that I can not go? Public transport exists. So do private tour buses.

There might be a survivorship bias here. You will have travelled to large cities with public transport because those are the most viable places to go if you can't drive. If you want to go to places that are remote/not got tourist infrastructure with buses (e.g Vietnam et Al) then you'd seem somewhat stuck. TL:DR A lot of the world is not located in metropolitan cities.

I know loads of people who have backpacked around Vietnam without a driving license. Some even consider backpacking a right of passage.

of course, which is why a staggering 1 million of people commute in and out of london every day. But again, I'm just asking how exactly can we address the high price of housing near workplaces in London specifically, if London is already full to the brim and new housing isn't happening not because of regulations or lack of political will - there's just no space to build any more.

I think the main drives are real estate investments and centralisation... Tokyo doesn't really have these issues in part due to cultural differences but also due to better regulations on urbanism. []

[] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iGbC5j4pG9w

Move some of the work places.

European cities only don't require a car for those lucky enough to live in the city center of major capitals.

The further away from city suburbs, one might get a lucky 1 bus per hour if at all.

I lived in the suburbs of a medium sized city. Everything was easily accessible by bike, but of course many people still preferred the convenience of a car. It took about 25 minutes from my apartment to the city center.

My wife grew up in the suburbs of an even smaller city. It took about 10 minutes to reach that city center by bike, but almost everybody drove because the road connecting the suburb to the city center feels very unsafe on a bike.

Two anecdotes, plenty of European cities aren't as fortunate, specially in southern countries.

Many cities are only city in name, and in practice more towns aspiring to be cities, specially in southern and eastern Europe.

Here is one anecdote, Portalegre might be a nice city, as Northen Alentejo capital in Portugal, yet those 20 km on average from the neighbouring villages aren't that nice to do on bycicle specially during Summertime with temperatures up to 45 degrees celsius. And if you're thinking about taking a bus, better save money for a taxi, unless you're willing to spend the whole day in the city, as there is only one bus into each direction connecting the neighbouring villages to the city.

I’ve cited plenty more cities. And could cite more still.

Besides, your statement was an absolute so the GP only needed one of example to disprove you yet gave you two.

Capital sized cities.

There are plenty of cities in Portugal, Spain, Italy, Greece, Croatia,... where it doesn't hold.

You know, those that people from the cities you listed love to rent cars for their vacations, and enjoy what many locals can't afford.

How can they rent cars when they don’t have a driving license?

And no, they weren’t all capital sized cities.

I also don’t understand what vacationing has to do with anything when I was talking about expats.

Many do, even if they don't drive at home.

Plenty, it shows not wanting to endure the actual pain locals have with local transport system, if one exists at all.

> Many do, even if they don't drive at home.

But this conversation is about people who don’t drive. Not people who do.

You’ve warped the discussion so far off it’s original topic that your entire premise here is now just one stupid straw man argument.

To get back on topic: nobody is disputing that there are people out there with driving licenses (well durrr!). It was to explain why some people (ie not all) are content without learning to drive.

Depends on the city but generally what you’ve described is completely untrue. Usually European cities try to pedestrianise their centre as much as they can and have all sorts of public transport schemes from Park and Ride to underground rail services.

I live miles out of from London and get the train in. Almost nobody I work with live in the city and none of them drive in. In fact you wouldnt want to drive in London.

This has been true for so many European cities, Cambridge, Chelmsford, York, Amsterdam, Paris, Berlin, etc. all are very accessible for non-car owners.

Anyone who claims you need a car to live in a European city is someone who hasn’t experienced many European cities ;)

Yeah, I guess I need to throw away my passport.

It is no accident you only listed capital sized cities.

The first three, so literally half that list, are relatively small cities. Certainly not “capital sized”.

I’ve noticed this trend you have of defining things in absolute terms despite the evidence being transparently not. Which I normally make an effort not to reply to your silly comments however on this occasion didn’t check who the commenter was before responding. Which is basically a longwinded way of saying I’m not going to continue on with this absurd exchange any further.

Maybe you should actually try to live in a "city" in southern Europe.

Just don't pick Lisbon, Porto, Madrid, Barcelona, Rom, Napel, Milano, Athens, Zagreb for the actual experience.

Here is a suggestion, country side in the middle of the country, or one of the Mediterrean or Atlantic island.

I live in the countryside now. I’m not oblivious to the benefits of driving. What I’m doing is providing counter arguments to the ridiculous absolutes you’re coming out with. Comments like “only” are simply bullshit.

But I suspect that’s intentional behaviour. You don’t want people to agree, you are actively seeking out an argument. Because if you wanted a sensible discussion you’d see that our two points were complimentary rather than contradictory.